Carlbrook

[Charly]

There is a nurse on staff and a doctor on call all the time.  The kid gets a thorough medical exam before going out in the field.

[Nihilanthic]

So if a kid refused to do as told, they stopped. What if he utterly refused to move, how would he be moved?

What do they to do to punish people there who refuse to otherwise do as told, or act out, or verbally lash out, or "Talk back"?

Additionally, why bad food and forced exercise except to create unpleantness.

Finally, what were these groups like. Were they compulsory or forced in any way, like those IMPACT LETTERS were? How did they make them read them anyway...

I'm also still wondering how any of this is equipped or proper for 'detox', which requires SUPPORT for the psysiological and psychologial changes that happens to someone going through that, and needs a lot of rest - not exertion.

[Nihilanthic]

There is a nurse on staff and a doctor on call all the time.  The kid gets a thorough medical exam before going out in the field.

So why are they sent there for detox, if the ones that really need detox don't go there, they go to an ACTUAL detox?   :-?

[Karass]

And why would this be more effective 'after' a program than before? Isn't placement in a program just another attempt at 'rescue'? Is this what you did, and are you prepared to following through with it?

It was more effective afterward because I was able to communicate directly with my son instead of the chemical 'him' that he had been for quite some time before. Wilderness was another attempt at rescue -- a final attempt.

I/we are prepared to follow through on making him be responsible for his actions and his personal well-being. It's been 5 months since he got home and there haven't been any reasons to think I would have to kick him out when he turns 18. He has it pretty good here -- he would be the first to say so. But he understands when I say "look dude, this is my house. I can't have cops showing up here, or drug deals going down on the side of the house," and that kind of stuff. Once he moves out, he can do whatever the fuck he wants in his own place.

So a wilderness is a detox?

It can be, and not just from drugs & alcohol, but also from strained relationships and toxic self-perceptions that have become very dysfunctional.

What if he does drugs again?

Who says he hasn't?

Why do you need all of the full wilderness load of shit to do detox?

You don't. He could've detoxed perfectly well in a 30-day inpatient program not too far from home. But I think, and more importantly he thinks he got a lot more out of the "full wilderness load of shit" than he would have gotten from a standard inpatient detox.

Somehow I fail to understand why you would have to go have him controlled and 'fixed' before you sit on your hands and go "Okay! You're on your own, kid!". It just sort of lacks consistency and rhyme and reason is all.

I don't expect you to understand. I'm not sure I fully understand it myself, "it" being the thought processes and rationalizations my wife and I went through at the time. Part of it was the belief that he needed something different, since everything else had been tried and failed, and the fact that he was asking for help and not wanting to continue living the way he had been living. Part of it was the fear that if we left him 'unsupervised' all summer while we were at work, he might not survive. He almost didn't survive the previous summer. And I don't mean that in the program-speak 'insanedeadorinjail' manner, I mean it in the IV tubes/ER/vital signs manner.

If he had just stuck to pot, coke and hallucinogens, like kids of my generation, his summer might have been a lot different.

[Deborah]

Actually, Deb, attacking them on this one doesn't always work- I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and provide a counterexample. This wilderness program looks like it's making a very desperate attempt not to be (or appear?) evil.

Interesting. Desperate attempt indeed, just as Lon's latest essay on "Change". http://www.strugglingteens.com/
The industry is really in defense mode. Aspiro's whole pitch addresses all the complaints that have been voiced here for years. No levels... no tought love....traditional clinical services....no breaking down... There's advertising and there's reality. Won't know if they're really different until a survivor or staff comes along to provide the details.

Did my post come off as an attack? My thoughts, questions, concerns are sincere and genuine.... oh well. I'd sincerely like to know if parents think wilderness skills or bm in an austere environment, is responsible for their kids change. And if they really have to be deprived in order to gain self esteem from the skills they acquire. And why, if this treatment model is so effective, why it's not being written up in journals everywhere?

Have you observed a person detox? If the person is genuinely 'addicted' and detoxing, they require medical observation. Was your kid detoxing in the clinical sense of the word, or was that an exaggeration? How long is the detox period before they are sent to the field?

[Anonymous]

Wilderness Therapy as a DETOX can be dangerous, especially for kids addicted to certain drugs like Meth.  Parents should beware of sending their children to WT with the hope of getting them off drugs.  That's something that needs to be done in a medically controlled enviornment under the supervision of trained medical professionals not guys/gals who wear bandanas tied around their head and call themselves such names as Gentle Feather.

[Nihilanthic]

It can be, and not just from drugs & alcohol, but also from strained relationships and toxic self-perceptions that have become very dysfunctional.

We call that isolation. That is a BAD THING. Also, this is not therapeutic, and it seems to be recursive justification, not a reason to be sent in a wilderness program. Willing removal from stress or a not so willing removal from abuse does not need a wilderness program and someone who was abused needs treatment therapy and support, not a wilderness program!

Who says he hasn't?

Then why even bring up detox or use a wilderness at all? :roll:

You don't. He could've detoxed perfectly well in a 30-day inpatient program not too far from home. But I think, and more importantly he thinks he got a lot more out of the "full wilderness load of shit" than he would have gotten from a standard inpatient detox.

And I have to repeat again why someone who got programmed in the wilderness is almost required to say that? Especially to his own parent while under 18 and the threat of being sent back is very well known to every kid who escaped 'the industry' alive...

I don't expect you to understand. I'm not sure I fully understand it myself, "it" being the thought processes and rationalizations my wife and I went through at the time. Part of it was the belief that he needed something different, since everything else had been tried and failed, and the fact that he was asking for help and not wanting to continue living the way he had been living. Part of it was the fear that if we left him 'unsupervised' all summer while we were at work, he might not survive. He almost didn't survive the previous summer. And I don't mean that in the program-speak 'insanedeadorinjail' manner, I mean it in the IV tubes/ER/vital signs manner.

Well, the DUCK test here says it looks like, waddles like, floats like and quacks like a DUCK... or, rather, bullshit. Duckshit?

BELIEF you need treatment is not REASON, is not a DX, is not JUSTIFICATION, and doesn't work.

Do you reailze how much of that was edcons and programs telling you that, and making you feel that way?

Why was he in intensive care, anyway? And how does wilderness fix that beside keep him away from whatever he did?

[Nihilanthic]

Wilderness Therapy as a DETOX can be dangerous, especially for kids addicted to certain drugs like Meth.  Parents should beware of sending their children to WT with the hope of getting them off drugs.  That's something that needs to be done in a medically controlled enviornment under the supervision of trained medical professionals not guys/gals who wear bandanas tied around their head and call themselves such names as Gentle Feather.

THANK YOU.

I'm kind of amazed THE OBVIOUS is so hard to come by around such discussions...

[Anonymous]

[Oz girl]

It is commendable charlie that you are not afraid to tell the story of your own mistakes. But i see a big difference between writing a piece for the New York Times or even doing a talk in your local community when you are a fully grown adult who has made a choice and who is telling the story from your own point of view, and being a kid who is forced to face a public shaming. firstl as an adult you can be realtively anon by writing a newspaper column. Secondly if you choose to do a talk in your community, you are likely to have at least some friends around for moral suppoert. You are also likely to at least face some level of admiration and support for your candour. As a kid you are surrounded by people that you just met and may not feel you have anything in common with. the impact letter also only tells the parents side.
i would imagine a more comprible situation would be if you were at an aquaintances cocktail party and only know a few people, and are forced to read something that someone else has written about you which points out all the things you have done that you feel ashamed of.
One question i would like to hear the answer to is why there were no other choices than Wilderness and Carlbrook? This is isnteresting to me because it is an extremely common thing to hear. What was it that made sending your son to the local public school when he was kicked out of boarding school the less extreme option? i am not asking this question to be rude, it is something I am genuinely interested in.

[Karass]

I wish I had moved the wilderness chunk of this to a thread of its own, since it really has very little to do with Carlbrook, but oh well.

Some very good points were raised, and in the usual manner on Fornits (or anywhere else) we didn't really resolve anything, but the exchange of ideas, opinions and info is valuable.

Looking back on it, it's kind of weird to read what I wrote earlier today in what I would call my "ST persona" vs. some of the anon stuff I have posted here over the last 6 months. Even more weird when I recall some of the things I have written to other parents along the lines of "stay away from this industry." In many ways I wish I had never gotten involved and wish my kid had never gotten involved. I wish I hadn't felt compelled to make a radical choice for him. I wish I didn't feel compelled to help other parents get educated and avoid making huge mistakes. But in spite of my support of the whole concept of community-based options, I wish to hell that there truly were some more of those that were viable. We tried everything, and we live in a big city where we have more options than many people. Nothing worked. Things just seemed to go from bad to worse. One local 'legitimate therapeutic situation' even did a lot more harm than good. Maybe it wasn't the therapy or the therapists that were "bad" -- maybe he just wasn't ready to be helped or to help himself at that time.

After learning all I have learned about the horrors of this industry -- after reading Help At Any Cost, and 63days.com and watching the French TBS documentary, and the Montana PBS thing, all I can say is that my son and my family is fucking lucky. He is happy, healthy and safe, and maybe that's just a coincidence.

I am, however, thankful that some degree of regulation has hit this industry -- although much more needs to be done. I am grateful that he got enough calories -- he neither lost nor gained more than a couple pounds in those 7 weeks. I am grateful that he was not over-exerted -- he thought the hiking was easy and no big deal. I am grateful that he got the kinds of things out of it emotionally, psychologically, that I would hope to get myself if I did a similar program myself. Was he abused? Some of you will say "yes" no matter what. He doesn't think so, and I don' think so, and I am a bigger critic of all of this than he is, but we all have to live with it and we have to take from it what we can.

The bottom line is all is good now. The money might have been wasted, or might not.

[Oz girl]

Was he abused? Some of you will say "yes" no matter what. He doesn't think so, and I don' think so, and I am a bigger critic of all of this than he is, but we all have to live with it and we have to take from it what we can.

The bottom line is all is good now. The money might have been wasted, or might not.

I am glad your son got something out of his experience with the industry. One idea that often goes around is that if a kid gets enough food and shelter and is not abused then the experience was worthwhile. To me it is that simple. i accept that every place can not be a complete gulag but what i dont accept is the philosophy of tough love. For every kid who was sporty and fit to go in with so did not find the hiking too bad, there is another that is potentially overweight, detoxing from drugs, on some kind of medication or suffering from an eating disorder. Given that the industry is in the business of dealing with troubled kids it is not in it's financial interest to turn these kids away and therefore there is a good chance that many of the kids will be in considerable physical discomfort for much of the time.
I also understand that many good parents might feel at the end of their rope when they send a kid to wilderness or TBS. But what i have argued for a while now is that if the option was not available parents would have to try something else whether they liked it or not. This is what parents in similar circumstances in ecery other part of the world are forced to do. Even if this was just hoping that the kid will one day grow out of the worse, or watching the kid reach 18, make a series of really stupid mistakes and then helping them to pick up the pieces when they mature. statistically American kids are no worse than their foreign peers. To me the latter option is the harder one.

The kind of kids who go to programmes are predominantly middle class at least. Most middle class kids everywhere are more likely to come out of adolescence in one piece because even when it takes some level of sacrifice, their families have the resources to help them. They also are less likely to fall through completely because we are all products of our conditioning. For most of us making peace with this is a part of growing up or growing old. The brave or lucky few who dont may just be the happier ones anyway.

[Nihilanthic]

The bottom line is the industry is 99.9% QUACKERY, composed of rehashed, debunked psycho-bullshit that erhard tried decades ago and got shot down and left by the wayside just like the steady-state theory of cosmology and other nonsense like hysteria and phlogiston  :roll:

It still relies on isolation, coersion, control and regression, it still sweeps up all of the bullshit it can't answer for as 'emotional growth', experimental therapy (or experiential!) or tough love, and still has absolutely zero proof it works or does anything good at all.

But yet people get emotionally pushed into putting their own flesh and blood into this, cut off from thier own parents, legal representation and access to advocates, whereas the rest of the Westernized, "enligthened" 1st world doesn't allow this kind of bullshit to occur.

When people wake up and competent administration comes back(oh 2009 how I yearn for thee) all of this will be a very bad memory. Oversight and a media that does not have a set of Bush-derived blinders on would be pretty bitchin', don't you think?

I mean shit, here I am, 22 year old college guy and I've ripped into every program to come my way like a hungry pitbull into a wet bag full of fried bacon. Pretty pathetic :rofl: These guys dont have a leg to stand on and no justification, merely feelings, beliefs, and... well, LGAT-derived nonsense.

Ho hum. If I can make this funny enough I should try to get on the Daily Show. I'll give about 15 shoutouts to fornits.

[Charly]

OzGirl-  He WAS at the local public school (horrific) when all the anger and depression got the better of him (and us).  The school was so "beneath him" that he acted out there, cut school, stole our cars and other things....... I'm not going to go into it all here.   Please just take my word, that like 70s Punk above, we tried everything.  Do you really think we would have sent our son away just because he got kicked out of his school (the third one, by the way)?  If you think the "deadorinjail" thing is such a joke, I can show you the pictures of our Explorer lying by the side of the road on it's completely flattened roof, or the logs of the middle of the night calls from police and neighbors.  We also had a lot of resources, but like you guys keep saying, if the kid isn't willing, it isn't any good.

[Charly]

It was The Wall Street Journal- and I was just interviewed- I didn't write a piece.
Sharing your story and your parents' "version" before a group of your peers in the exact same situation may bother some kids, and it might be uncomfortable, but one of the first steps in ANY therapeutic process is owning up to what you did.  The kid is free to counter what the parents said (mine did), both to the parents and to the group.  My son thought this was a minor inconvenience compared to being hauled out of his life by escorts.   I asked him online last night if he thought wilderness was abusive or coercive.  He said, "Abusive- only in good ways in terms of the physical demands and restrictions"  "Coercive- Are you kidding me?  Do you remember how I got there?"