Carlbrook

[Deborah]

Okay, I gotta ask... How did a 70s Punk Rebel get sold on a Wilderness program???

Ever see a therapist advertise that they'll 'fix' your kid in X number days/weeks? No. There's a reason. Ethical therapy with lasting results that aren't an assault to the person's psyche take time.

How 'effective' would wilderness be if all their bm torture bullshit was taken away? They got 6 weeks to break the kids will. Gotta employ some pretty abusive tactics to accomplish that.

[Karass]

Its about as useful as a wake up call as me beating Karen with her own medicine was.

TBS is not real therapy, and you dont make people get therapy by abusing them first. Thats unethical, unnecessary, and pretty ineffective. Do you think Karen wants to talk right now? Think she's open right now? Oh, maybe a few weeks of this in my backyard without showers eating MREs and oatmeal might make her more 'open' :rofl:

Hey, is her self esteem high right now? No... i'd imagine its pretty crushed right now!!! How the hell does 'wilderness' or ANYTHING a program, camp, or what I just did help self esteem?

They SAY they do it, but when you get specifics, it sure tells another story, don't you agree?

Scared straight bullshit doesn't work, the APA has already demonstrated that, and just common sense does too.

What Karen is feeling right now and what my son was feeling after 7 weeks in the wilderness are probably very different on many levels. There were genuine self-esteem boosts my son experienced, related to physical, emotional and task-specific accomplishments. He learned a lot, and by no means was all of it from the program staff or the other participants. He learned a lot just from the experience, from finding out just how capable he really is. This wasn't about getting "scared straight" or about "tough love." This was about spending 7 weeks away from civilization to figure some shit out with a clear head, and having a safety net to make sure he didn't fucking die in the process.

I have a friend who is a bit older than I, who practices what I can only describe as a Native American spirituality or "religion" if you prefer. This guy routinely goes out on his own in the wilderness for weeks at a time on personal "vision quests" and finds them very rewarding. He does crazy shit like fasting for 3 days while hiking endless miles -- stuff a program would never (and should never) be allowed to do, even to consenting adults with properly signed release forms. My son knows him and had many conversations about all that stuff, and about what my son was going through, prior to wilderness. Considering that we had tried everything with him already, and considering he had already had a few close brushes with death and had begged us for help, I thought that a similar kind of wilderness experience might be more appropriate than a 30-day inpatient detox followed by yet another string of therapists, none of whom were likely to 'click' with him. There were times in his early phases of wilderness where he wished we would've just sent him to inpatient rehab. But by the time he was done, he was feeling very different about it. He was confident, physically and spiritually strong, and genuinely enjoying most aspects of the experience. He also has a newfound knowledge of and respect for the environment, and has become very interested in environmental activism. I can't find fault with any of that.

The most regrettable aspect of the whole thing, for me, was the coercion, which I understand is very un-therapeutic. My son can list a few other regrettable aspects, especially the sucky food, but he understands the coercion. We struggled a lot with that, considering there was a good chance he would agree to go willingly. He says in retrospect, that was probably the only way. He would've asked too many questions on the long trip to Utah and would've been really unhappy about the 7-week duration. Two or three weeks, sure. But 7 weeks was most of his summer vacation.

You were a kid, don't you remember being one?

According to my wife, I'm still a teenager in a middle-aged body. I was definitely what many parents would consider "program material" when I was his age, but I grew out of some of the crazier shit I did back then. I don't wish for my son to be any different than he is -- rebelliousness and all. I don't even wish for him to have a substance-free lifestyle (hell, I don't!). I just didn't want to bury him before he was 18. That's so cliche, and 'program-speak' and all that, but in his case it really was a possibility, and one that we came close to facing more than once.

I can't credit the wilderness program with "saving" him, and I can't really say that he was completely unharmed by it. But he likes who he is today, he is not actively or passively trying to kill himself or putting his body in a state of extreme chemical distress, and he has hopes and plans for the future. Like all of us, he is the sum total of all his experiences, thoughts, ideas and beliefs. For better or worse, his wilderness experience is now a part of what has shaped him into who he is today.

Oddly, he is a lot more "ok" with that than I am.

[Nihilanthic]

Suffering but feeling capable? What?

You mean to tell me all the psycho-bullshit interrogations and confrontational crap, intersperced with repetetive difficult tasks somehow boosted self esteem?

No.

What happened is when the bullshit was over, or at least mostly over, and he saw the light at the end of the tunnel, and learend how to do what the camp wanted him to do, he started to feel better because he didn't feel as hopeless and they didn't hurt him as much.

You do not force people to do shit against thier will, and when they suceed at doing it and enduring your shit somehow get a "self esteem boost" from that like how I can shove a cam into a motor and give it a power boost. It does not work that way, thats nonsense, thats bupkus, its baloney, its bullshit.

This was about spending 7 weeks away from civilization to figure some shit out with a clear head, and having a safety net to make sure he didn't fucking die in the process.

Too bad that safety net doesn't work that much to keep him ALIVE, and definitely doesn't do much for psychological injuries, considering that part of a "wilderness" is to cause a breakdown/breakthrough episode... its not about being able to think with a clear head at all. Its about shit put into his head by the people there called 'counselors'!

So, if I put someone in Sobibor, and teach him to play violin he gets a self esteem boost? Riiiight  :wink:

There were times in his early phases of wilderness where he wished we would've just sent him to inpatient rehab. But by the me he was done, he was feeling very different about it.

That is kind of what a "program" does, be it with a wilderness camp or a TBS... that's a point we have been trying to make for 100+ pages of this thread. Maybe you should think about WHY he felt differently after they were done with him!

For better or worse, his wilderness experience is now a part of what has shaped him into who he is today.

Oddly, he is a lot more "ok" with that than I am.

You should think about that keeping in mind what we've all said, too.

[Karass]

Suffering but feeling capable? What?

You mean to tell me all the psycho-bullshit interrogations and confrontational crap, intersperced with repetetive difficult tasks somehow boosted self esteem?

No.

What happened is when the bullshit was over, or at least mostly over, and he saw the light at the end of the tunnel, and learend how to do what the camp wanted him to do, he started to feel better because he didn't feel as hopeless and they didn't hurt him as much.

In his view, they never hurt him at all, psychologically or otherwise. I tend to be a little more skeptical, since I know that part of group "sharing" is revealing a lot of personal stuff, all the things you've done that hurt others, etc., and brutal honesty is expected...and usually achieved. Participation can be very cathartic or it can be humiliating and damaging, depending on how the person feels about participating and "sharing."

This was about spending 7 weeks away from civilization to figure some shit out with a clear head, and having a safety net to make sure he didn't fucking die in the process.

Too bad that safety net doesn't work that much to keep him ALIVE, and definitely doesn't do much for psychological injuries, considering that part of a "wilderness" is to cause a breakdown/breakthrough episode... its not about being able to think with a clear head at all. Its about shit put into his head by the people there called 'counselors'!

Oh, but it did keep him alive. The participants quickly learn the Utah regulations on hiking, water, minimum calories, etc. because it becomes obvious that the staff are following some specific rules. Funny you should mention counselors filling his head with shit, since he didn't think he got a lot of value from the two licensed therapists that worked with him ("the usual talk therapy stuff"). On the other hand, he learned a lot from the field staffers, most of whom are self-described fuckups in thier late teens and early 20s.

So, if I put someone in Sobibor, and teach him to play violin he gets a self esteem boost? Riiiight  :wink:

A good analogy...almost. I would put it this way: if you take someone who has mostly been taken care of and 'rescued' by their parents for their entire life, and you put them in a "Survivor" type setting, and teach them how to survive with nothing but their wits and a knife, then yes, they can get a self-esteem boost and a feeling of accomplishment from having mastered something that is very difficult and demanding.

Then you bring them back home from that setting and say, "look kid, this is your life and your deal. We're not bailing you out of jail anymore. We're not covering for you with school anymore. We're not going to police your substance abuse or your recovery or your therapy. If you want to go back to the way things were, just remember that we're only responsible for you until you turn 18. After that, you're free to walk out the door, and we are free to insist that you walk out the fucking door if it comes to that. We've done everything we could think of to try to help you. The rest is up to you. Time to sink or swim."

Freedom and responsibility. That is a much bigger self-esteem boost.

[Deborah]

Punk, you sound like a reasonable person.
Have you contemplated why wilderness programs feed the kids such crappy food and inadequate calories? Why they march them to exhaustion? Why they live and sleep outdoors in extreme weather conditions? Why they wash from the same cup they eat from. Why the kid has no uncensored contact with parents, at least until they've conditioned them a bit?

Introspection, journaling, learning to start a fire with a bow drill, tracking, contemplating the universe, learning the solar system.... all fun and useful things.
 
Which aspect of the program do you think had the greatest influence on your son and why? Learning fun and useful things, or being subjected to neglect and abuse?

Do you think the same could've been accomplished without all the methods I stated in the first paragraph? And, if the counseling community considers them unethical, why are they allowed under the guise of 'therapy'? Do you feel the experimentalist have a leg up on the mental health professionals who oppose such 'treatment'? If they've stumbled on to a ground-breaking, revolutionary treatment regime, why aren't they publishing it (legitimately) and yelling it from rooftops? Would they actually divulge what their real methods are? No.

Can't you see the headlines?
Revolutionary cure for low self esteem, addictions of all manner, rebellion and violent behavior. Isolation from the real world, a sparse diet of oats, lentils, and rice. No condiments. Forced marches in boots that don't fit and cause blisters, in the blazing sun or sub zero temperatures.... blah, blah, blah.

The general consensus amongst civilized people is that their methods (not what's on their website, but what actually happens) are abusive. A parent would loose custody for doing the same to their own kid. Doesn't mean a kid might not learn something useful while being tortured, and might even 'change'. They may have changed after 6 weeks in juvie too.
I think the two are more alike than different. Why can't the industry, and parents, call a spade a spade? It's plain and simple parent-choice Involuntary Incarceration.

[Nihilanthic]

"look kid, this is your life and your deal. We're not bailing you out of jail anymore. We're not covering for you with school anymore. We're not going to police your substance abuse or your recovery or your therapy. If you want to go back to the way things were, just remember that we're only responsible for you until you turn 18. After that, you're free to walk out the door, and we are free to insist that you walk out the fucking door if it comes to that. We've done everything we could think of to try to help you. The rest is up to you. Time to sink or swim."

Freedom and responsibility. That is a much bigger self-esteem boost.

Uh, dude... if you do that, you don't use a wilderness or tbs program, you JUST DO IT, and secondly, that DOES work!!!

That camp you sent him to just made him play in the dirt for a few weeks before he got a chance to do that, so I don't understand that analogy.

I can say with some confidence if you had done that without wasting a small fortune on that damn camp you could have instead spent that money on yourself and your son when he went out, lived a little and then came back to start a healthy relationship with you  

Sorry to not keep this post entirely optimistic but I have to make a point of this:

In his view, they never hurt him at all, psychologically or otherwise. I tend to be a little more skeptical, since I know that part of group "sharing" is revealing a lot of personal stuff, all the things you've done that hurt others, etc., and brutal honesty is expected...and usually achieved. Participation can be very cathartic or it can be humiliating and damaging, depending on how the person feels about participating and "sharing."

That is a very risky flip of a coin to subject to someone. A few individuals might be cathartically helped by that, but its mostly a PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT, not actual therapy or actual 'growth'. This has already been addressed in this thread, and for that matter, decades ago by the medical community.

That is not something that can be condoned or forced on anyone, at all, period... and yet it is done to every kid that goes through a program and is a bit stupid.

And, for that matter, as many have said before, he might have been TOLD it was cathartic instead of humiliating... remember that! This is what he says after he is done with the program, not without the influence of a program to change his perceptions.

[Deborah]

Then you bring them back home from that setting and say, "look kid, this is your life and your deal. We're not bailing you out of jail anymore. We're not covering for you with school anymore. We're not going to police your substance abuse or your recovery or your therapy. If you want to go back to the way things were, just remember that we're only responsible for you until you turn 18. After that, you're free to walk out the door, and we are free to insist that you walk out the fucking door if it comes to that. We've done everything we could think of to try to help you. The rest is up to you. Time to sink or swim."

And why would this be more effective 'after' a program than before?
Isn't placement in a program just another attempt at 'rescue'? Is this what you did, and are you prepared to following through with it?

[Karass]

And why would this be more effective 'after' a program than before? Isn't placement in a program just another attempt at 'rescue'? Is this what you did, and are you prepared to following through with it?

It was more effective afterward because I was able to communicate directly with my son instead of the chemical 'him' that he had been for quite some time before. Wilderness was another attempt at rescue -- a final attempt.

I/we are prepared to follow through on making him be responsible for his actions and his personal well-being. It's been 5 months since he got home and there haven't been any reasons to think I would have to kick him out when he turns 18. He has it pretty good here -- he would be the first to say so. But he understands when I say "look dude, this is my house. I can't have cops showing up here, or drug deals going down on the side of the house," and that kind of stuff. Once he moves out, he can do whatever the fuck he wants in his own place.

[Anonymous]

Have you contemplated why wilderness programs feed the kids such crappy food and inadequate calories?

Actually, Deb, attacking them on this one doesn't always work- I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and provide a counterexample. This wilderness program looks like it's making a very desperate attempt not to be (or appear?) evil.

[Charly]

Niles- Please don't think you "impacted me" or hurt me in any way.  I left because I was wasting my time and I am not going to deal with your anger.  I just don't need to and I'm not going to do it.  I will discuss with others if there are questions I can answer.

[Nihilanthic]

Niles- Please don't think you "impacted me" or hurt me in any way.  I left because I was wasting my time and I am not going to deal with your anger.  I just don't need to and I'm not going to do it.  I will discuss with others if there are questions I can answer.

Karen,

My outburst, whether it had an effect on you or not, was wrong, whether or not you 'deserve it' in my opinion or not. Nobody deserves it, neither you nor me, nor children or teenagers.

Nevertheless, the questions I asked still need to be answered, and if not to me, then to everyone else.

[Nihilanthic]

And why would this be more effective 'after' a program than before? Isn't placement in a program just another attempt at 'rescue'? Is this what you did, and are you prepared to following through with it?

It was more effective afterward because I was able to communicate directly with my son instead of the chemical 'him' that he had been for quite some time before. Wilderness was another attempt at rescue -- a final attempt.

I/we are prepared to follow through on making him be responsible for his actions and his personal well-being. It's been 5 months since he got home and there haven't been any reasons to think I would have to kick him out when he turns 18. He has it pretty good here -- he would be the first to say so. But he understands when I say "look dude, this is my house. I can't have cops showing up here, or drug deals going down on the side of the house," and that kind of stuff. Once he moves out, he can do whatever the fuck he wants in his own place.

So a wilderness is a detox?

What if he does drugs again?

Why do you need all of the full wilderness load of shit to do detox?

There is no internal consistency in what you're saying and in your justifications!

What IS it for, exactly? Nothing? A "wake up call" before you cut him loose? Detox? Both? None? Why all the other nonsense there... that has nothing to do with detox or therapy or helping anyone communicate.

Somehow I fail to understand why you would have to go have him controlled and 'fixed' before you sit on your hands and go "Okay! You're on your own, kid!". It just sort of lacks consistency and rhyme and reason is all.

[Charly]

YEs- it is a detox from a lot of things.  Perhaps when they return home they choose to stay off of whatever they detoxed from- whether it be drugs, a relationship or anger.

[Nihilanthic]

So do they have a nurse on staff and lots of fluids and nutrition while the toxins get out of thier system, or do they go march and get malnourished, under-fed, probably not given enough water, and overexert themselves?

Detox and hiking do not intersect anywhere. Detox is INPATIENT. This is clearly more about instigating stress... withdrawl would only help that.

[Charly]

I've lost track of your questions, but I think one was about what happened if someone wouldn't or couldn't hike.  The answer is that the group had to stop until the kid would hike.  This is why others would sometimes carry the gear for a tired hiker.  They had to figure out how to get moving again.

My son just told me online that the food was terrible, but you got used to it.  He said you got enough food and water.

He said wilderness was not abusive or coercive except for the way he got there.  He said the therapy groups were good and nothing like C-brook.