Carlbrook

[Nihilanthic]

Niles- I'm sorry, but I can't deal with you.  Perhaps my tag-team partner can do better.

My ONLY point in discussing adult retreats was to point out that introspection is hard to do in the midst of real life.  It often has to be forced.
You are attacking me and I'm not going to engage.  Sorry.

No, you are avoiding, parrying, feinting, pushing to the side and doding, and not engaging in anything.

You have no facts, proof, or evidence, just emotional appeals. You say outright you BELIEVE so much you would refuse evidential proof if it were presented to you.

And now you say you can't deal with ME, so you won't deal with what I said, even though those questions need to be answered.

So, does someone else have to ask the same thing I asked, Karen?

GOSH, DOESN'T THIS SUCK ON THE INTERNET? IMAGINE WHAT ITS LIKE FOR A CHILD IN A PROGRAM.  :flame:

[psy]

psy-  Wilderness really does not work the same way the TBS programs do.  It is not the same model.  It isn't at all a "you'll stay until we break you and you get it" thing.  Wilderness is really an interim thing and they NEVER claim it "fixes" kids.

Then why did you send your kid?

we were told week after week what our son wanted to address and what he wanted to know from us.

Again.  You were told through the program.  They get to play the role of the unscrupulous language translator, twisting the meaning and conversation in a direction they please.  As a middleman in communication you can control both sides of the argument.  Think about it.  With those sat phones why didn't they just let the kids walk off to the nearest tree alone, and call home?

Yes, introspection can be done in other places, but it wasn't going to happen the way things were going at home.  Adults go on retreats. Why do you think they do this?  It's because you have to MAKE time in your life for reflection and take yourself out of your life.  This is what wilderness does for a teen.  Yes- against their will.

Here's a question.  and i don't mean this an offensive manner.  I truly wonder if you had considered this option:  What if you took off from work, and took your kid hiking for a few months. You could even hire a guide to teach you that wilderness stuff.  Being alone as a family in the wilderness together there is bound to be dialogue, and through that, mutual understanding.

[psy]

Niles- I'm sorry, but I can't deal with you.  Perhaps my tag-team partner can do better.

My ONLY point in discussing adult retreats was to point out that introspection is hard to do in the midst of real life.  It often has to be forced.
You are attacking me and I'm not going to engage.  Sorry.

No, you are avoiding, parrying, feinting, pushing to the side and doding, and not engaging in anything.

You have no facts, proof, or evidence, just emotional appeals. You say outright you BELIEVE so much you would refuse evidential proof if it were presented to you.

And now you say you can't deal with ME, so you won't deal with what I said, even though those questions need to be answered.

So, does someone else have to ask the same thing I asked, Karen?

GOSH, DOESN'T THIS SUCK ON THE INTERNET? IMAGINE WHAT ITS LIKE FOR A CHILD IN A PROGRAM.  :flame:

niles.  cut it out.  charley.  just skip past his posts.  i want to hear what you have to say.

[Nihilanthic]

Ok, then you sugar coat my queries.  :roll:

They still need to be answered, even if shes too much of a pussy to take even a fraction of what she put her child through for a lot of his adolescent life.

[Charly]

Deb--  I have openly shared my failings as a parent and as an adult with groups at both my son's programs, as well as a treatment group I was in in my town.  My son has talked about his family issues with us present at group sessions.  Of course it is tough to hear, but it's part of therapy.  
I actually shared some of my family issues with The Wall Street Journal, and was quoted.  I received several calls from social and business associates thanking me for my honesty.  (this was way before my son was in a program)
So-you are heading the wrong way with that one, Deborah.

[Karass]

And what if the tables were turned... and the parents received some of this Impact "therapy". Say we round up all their friends from the country club and business associates and let the kid read his Impact letter, listing all the many ways his parents had failed and the emotional/ psychological/ developmental issue this caused him.

You just described a significant part of the 3-day family session that concluded his time at wilderness, except for the part about "the country club and business associates" who were not present. You're right, it was not fun to be called on all of my own failures and my own shit. I still think it was one of the most important 3 days we've ever spent together as a family.

[Nihilanthic]

Kudos for honesty when they knew what about how truthful you were being or how much you spun it to suit yourself, and how much of it was programmie jargon and boilerplate?

Lets give a big round of applause for Karen the attourney!

You mean your spin on your family issues and sidestepping what you did to your son?

You can't even take this. This is text on the internet. You couldn't imagine this daily, could you?

Imagine me in your face and you can't get away, you're helpless, you cant turn me off becuase Im a person and not a computer, you're not in your house, you're in the middle of fucking nowhere. I give you food and shelter, I say when you eat sleep shit and hike, I can make it worse for you, and I decide when you get to leave and when you make progress.

Try to imagine that Karen. Just try to wrap your mind around that. Because thats the reality of what your own flesh and blood went through.

[Nihilanthic]

And what if the tables were turned... and the parents received some of this Impact "therapy". Say we round up all their friends from the country club and business associates and let the kid read his Impact letter, listing all the many ways his parents had failed and the emotional/ psychological/ developmental issue this caused him.

You just described a significant part of the 3-day family session that concluded his time at wilderness, except for the part about "the country club and business associates" who were not present. You're right, it was not fun to be called on all of my own failures and my own shit. I still think it was one of the most important 3 days we've ever spent together as a family.

And what good did it actually do? What changes did you make? Is it effective therapy at all?

Does that excuse the suffering a child went through? You had the option to leave. You had the option to say enough, fuck you, Im gonna go get a hotel, Im gonna say Uncle. Three days as an adult with rights does not compare to weeks as someone's bitch out in the woods.

But hey, suffering = thriving = growth = tough love = life hurts = no pain no gain right?  :silly:

[Charly]

psy-  Our son wouldn't go anywhere with us.  He hated us, hated his life, was deep into self-medicating with risky behavior and ruined everything we tried to do with him.  He would no more have gone camping with us than he would have taken himself to wilderness!

We trusted the therapist and he never violated that trust. My son trusted him, too, and we got an accurate view of what my son was working on.

These kids did not need to be talking on the phone to their families. Our son would have refused.  

My son was in program for a year.  Total.  One year.

[Nihilanthic]

Hey, Karen, imagine that year of life in a little institution getting the crap you're getting for me.

You there? I know you see this. I know you're reading this. I know youre avoiding. Get out of your head, Karen, I think the group wants to know!

Want some IMPACT letters to kickstart it? I think everyone knows just as well as you and I what would be on those letters...

Yanno, I don't think you'll ever get your emotional growth and face your own mistakes unless someone makes you suffer a little. Afterall, its neither easy nor comfortable, for a child, why should it be for his mom?

[Charly]

No it isn't, Niles.  My son was not with YOU in the wilderness.  He was with excellent staff and therapists and he enjoys the outdoors.

He was not treated the way you treat people.  I would have pulled him immediately if anyone even remotely resembling you ever got near him.  Hell, I would take him out of PENN if anyone like you was near him.

Sorry, psy.

[Nihilanthic]

Really?

Why the FUCK didn't you, Karen?  :flame:

Did you forget, or think we forgot, what the people who had actually been there have had to say about these places? How many more people have to say it on the part of kid, staff, parent, and EXPERT (and you are not one) before it sinks in to your head?

THIS is confrontation! THIS is what it is like! THIS is facing your demons!

Sufficiently uncomfortable and difficult yet?

Your demon is what you did to your child for weeks at a time living in filth. Why not go roll around in your back yard and then stay that way, and not even change your underwear for a week, as well as showering weekly. Then have to face up to what you did.

How about I get a bunch fo strangers and tell you to read out a letter of all the shit you've done wrong out loud to them, how would you like that?

Just remember, this is text, a computer, the internet, and you are safe in your house. You are not having to face the intimidation you would get from an adult who has control over you, your food, and shelter, and can hurt you to make you do what he wants, especially as a child, especially with all that combined out in the middle of nowhere.

So tell me, Karen, how did the people who sat out get coersed into marching or doing those repetitive tasks or made to read those damned IMPACT letters?

[psy]

SHUT UP.  everybody... this thread is going straight down the shitter.  let's just all log off and take a break ok...

Well it's all up to you.  either one of you can end this argument right now by not responding to the other party.   If you want a full blown flame war again i wash my hands of this.

[Nihilanthic]

Hey, why do that? She sure thinks its okay to force this on her own fucking son, in person, with all the other conditions I laid out pretty clearly.

Why on earth can't she take a watered down, internet, face-to-monitor, you can take a break if you gotta go cry version of her own son's medicine.

I mean it worked for HIM... and it's KARENS responsibility what she gets out of this!

[Anonymous]

Niles, I'm serious...are you drunk?