Carlbrook

[Nihilanthic]

No offence intended or implied, but your own emotional trauma and stress might excuse your decision making, but does not make it 'right', and does not change what actually happened. It excuses you, not the 'professionals', impact letters, people bitching about 'exceptions' at carlbrook or any of the other nonsense.

In addition, means are not justified by the ends, especially considering ZERO proof that they had anything to do with them at all!

I find it somewhat odd an attourney is going to stand there and say that even if I give you PROOF, it will not convince an emotional decision you made that your son was not abused or mistreated at that wilderness program, despit the very specifics YOU yourself provided to us that are contrary to that! As attached as you are to that or your desire to believe that, and the very strong desire you also have to not believe you were wrong, the people who have themselves been through it (not just a parent on the sidelines as you were, once your child left your custody and entered that of the wilderness program) actual experts in the field, and ex counselors have otherwise to say.

And how does your emotional appeal compare to their observations? People who did it to kids themselves, people who went though it as kids that had it done to them, and actual psychologists and psychiatrists carry a lot more weight than an attourney trying to win an arguement and minimize how bad something looks, Karen.

You might BELIEVE in 12 step stuff, and you might BELIEVE in a higher power, but I won't hold my breath on you trying to prove either of them work or exist, respectively.

Also, I figure I'd let you in on something... 12 step schtick has the same effect on recidivism as doing nothing at all. 5%. Guess who admits that?

THE TWELVE STEP PROGRAMS THEMSELVES.

[Karass]

Nice doubleteam! Too bad I type fast    BTW, where are you from anyway?

Ask Ginger to check my IP. This is about my 100th post on Fornits. All but the last 3 were anon. Most of my earlier posts were what ST parents would call "anti-program." Even now, I'm definitely not "for" wilderness therapy and am not convinced it was necessary or even that it was money well spent (notice my avatar).

I don't think button-pushing or breaking them down is an adequate description of what they endured emotionally

Really? Then what is it?

One word for it is "hardship." But that's also an inadequate description. Also not a recognized therapeutic method, but it does have an effect on people.

Lots of confronting of demons, lots of journaling, introspection and talking things out -- sometimes one on one with a therapist and sometimes as a group.

Uh, that is the same thing, just "spun" with a few buzzwords. We call that "boilerplate" for a reason you know!

Boilerplate or not, it's pretty close to my son's assessment of what he did while he was out there.

A fair amount of hiking -- usually 1-3 miles/day -- not just pointless going around in circles, but to get from one camp site to the next

It's pointless unless there is some reason to go from campsite to campsite, and hiking isn't therapeutic in any way unless its a healthy person trying to burn calories or just enjoying it... and that has not one iota to do with psychotherapy at all.

So yes, its pointless, because of its utter irrelevance to real psychotherapy.

I guess you and I will forever disagree on the 'therapeutic' value of hiking and being away from civilization. My kids and I have been hiking in the wilderness since they were pre-schoolers. We didn't do it to burn calories, but to see and experience something that couldn't be had any other way.

I will agree with you on one important point -- this has nothing to do with psychotherapy at all.

The exception was "night hike" right before a 3 day solo (he did that twice). Those were long hikes, intended to induce exhaustion, where the kids would sleep away most of the daylight on the first day of solo.

Were you in Dead or Alive in the 80s? You sure as hell do spin me right round, baby!

No, in the late 70s/early 80s I was more into the Sex Pistols, the Ramones and the Clash. But you just reminded me of The Wedding Singer, which was a pretty funny movie.

Inducing exhaustion is one of the hallmarks of instigating a psychological regression, and to put it another way puts a lot of control over someone. Exhaustion is not part of psychotherapy, but sleep if someone WANTS to sleep is just part of treating someone right. Also, "solo" is not actual psychotherapy, but it is part of typical wilderness program schtik.

It's also related to an ancient Native American tradition that involves transitioning from boyhood to manhood. No it's not actual psychotherapy, but that doesn't mean it is devoid of value as a learning or growth experience.

You want to know what is effective or "therapeutic" about any of this? That is the essential question a parent must answer before subjecting their child to this, so I'll take some time and formulate a thoughtful response later.

Isn't it a damn shame nobody who runs these places, and the parents who send kids to them, even years later, can't answer that! Gee, I sure wish someone would get off their ass and answer it. Too bad we've put untold thousands of children through this before someone bothered to check.  :roll:

Others have attempted to answer it. I will piece together my own observations and what I have learned. More importantly, my son can tell you in his own words what he thinks was valuable about it, as well as what sucked about it.

Need I remind you who populates fornits? Educated activists, ex program kids, ex program staff, and ex program parents!

And some of them have helped my son and my family a great deal. They have especially helped me avoid making a huge mistake -- or if you prefer, an even bigger mistake than the one you believe I already made by sending him to wilderness.

[Charly]

psy-  Wilderness really does not work the same way the TBS programs do.  It is not the same model.  It isn't at all a "you'll stay until we break you and you get it" thing.  Wilderness is really an interim thing and they NEVER claim it "fixes" kids.  Very few kids are ready to go home after wilderness.  There are exceptions, and if our home situation/school etc. had been different, my son might have been one of them (in retrospect).  I can only speak for 2N and a few other programs I have learned about from attendees, but the staffing is good and extensive, and the programs are individualized.
The kids DO get to talk about things they choose- we were told week after week what our son wanted to address and what he wanted to know from us.  
Yes, introspection can be done in other places, but it wasn't going to happen the way things were going at home.  Adults go on retreats. Why do you think they do this?  It's because you have to MAKE time in your life for reflection and take yourself out of your life.  This is what wilderness does for a teen.  Yes- against their will.

[psy]

I haven't heard one kid complain about the letters being read.

Most people on fornits are rolling their eyes at that statement.  So let me ask you this: was graduation dependant only on finishing a set of requirements or did staff have to percieve a "change in attitude"?
If a kid wants to graduate, and has to be percieved as "changed", how could he or she complain without jeapodizing that?

WE didn't know when he was leaving until a week before.  It isn't a fixed date.

That's a definite warning sign.  Essentially, as you're explaining it, a program could keep the kid for as long as they felt necessary.   Would that statement be accurate?

Impact letter-  I think it served a crucial purpose.  Therapy isn't easy or comfortable.  I've never heard a kid complain about the impact letters or reading them in the group, either.

Listen.  The letters from my parents were read in group, and i found it *very* humiliating.  I wanted to complain about it, but there was so much else that was worse, and If I told my parents I would have gotten consequences.  This isn't just a theory, it happened to me until i stopped trying.  I stopped crying for help because i felt my parents no longer cared (among other thoroughly depressing reasons).

If there are program kids out there who think this is a problem, I would be glad to hear from them, but this seems like a non-issue.

Yeah I think it's a problem.  It was humiliating for me and i would *think* anybody else would have figured out that the involuntary public disclosure of personal issues is psychologically harmful.

How did you feel when somebody on fornits posted some of your personal information?  Violated somehow?  Multiply that by 100 or so.

[Nihilanthic]

Ask Ginger to check my IP. This is about my 100th post on Fornits. All but the last 3 were anon. Most of my earlier posts were what ST parents would call "anti-program." Even now, I'm definitely not "for" wilderness therapy and am not convinced it was necessary or even that it was money well spent (notice my avatar).

I never implied you were Karen, just that you were joining up with her. Or you both got the notice that I replied to the thread at the same time... same effect.

One word for it is "hardship." But that's also an inadequate description. Also not a recognized therapeutic method, but it does have an effect on people.

Um, DUH? Thats the point, the effect it has on people is NOT A GOOD ONE, and it is NOT recognized therapy. Wonder why?

Boilerplate or not, it's pretty close to my son's assessment of what he did while he was out there.

SURELY a program would not try to mold in some form what he would think or feel about what was done to him in a program, right? Oh, wait... and btw, you ever considered what he says to you is said through the filter of a program kid and not someone who was not manipulated?

I guess you and I will forever disagree on the 'therapeutic' value of hiking and being away from civilization. My kids and I have been hiking in the wilderness since they were pre-schoolers. We didn't do it to burn calories, but to see and experience something that couldn't be had any other way.

Wow, you hike because you like it. That's nice. What about everyone who is not you? Why is it FORCED? What does it have to do with treating ADD, ADHD, depression, "issues", being raped, social skills, etc?

I will agree with you on one important point -- this has nothing to do with psychotherapy at all.

I'm glad we made a 'breakthrough' :rolleyes: Too bad its still done and still presented as such, or at least having the EFFECTS as such, even when they claim to fix things that are unfixable.

No, in the late 70s/early 80s I was more into the Sex Pistols, the Ramones and the Clash. But you just reminded me of The Wedding Singer, which was a pretty funny movie.

RDRR.

Others have attempted to answer it. I will piece together my own observations and what I have learned. More importantly, my son can tell you in his own words what he thinks was valuable about it, as well as what sucked about it.

You mean answerit in terms of actually being effective? It hasn't been done becuase it can't. There is no proof, it is not therapeutic, even though it is called that, until it is challenged, then it is 'emotional growth' and 'has effects on people' that are 'profound' but can't be 'explained' even though it is nearly '2007' and we have something called 'science' and 'proof' and a 'burden of proof'. :rolleyes:

And some of them have helped my son and my family a great deal. They have especially helped me avoid making a huge mistake -- or if you prefer, an even bigger mistake than the one you believe I already made by sending him to wilderness.

That is good to know, that really is. But you're still defending something emotionally that really needs to either have a factual basis or needs to just be put in the pile of all the other debunked quackery like Hysteria or Dr. Kellogg's theory about how to fix children. Need I get out some carbolic acid and demonstrate on your genitalia?

[psy]

No offense taken.  No need to apologize.  I'm just trying to beat around the bush saying *no flame war pretty please*

[Charly]

There are no specific requirements for graduation from wilderness.  There is no "graduation".  You just go to transition camp with your family and then you leave.  Some kids are still at the first "level" and some are at the top "level".  It is very individualized and dependent on a lot of things- one of them being money!

It is not accurate that the program could keep the kid as long as it felt necessary.  Every week we had an extensive phone session- or two-with the therapists and went over where things stood and what we and they thought about when to transition our son.  Our input was carefully considered and we weighed what was said to us.  

I guess I have been to enough group therapy sessions that the sharing of personal information in a trusted group does not alarm me.  It was not a secret why these kids were there, and not much shocked the others.  I think one of the purposes of the reading of the Impact Letters was to prevent the kids from minimizing what had gone on at home.  A kid might report to the group that he smoked pot "once or twice"' and the impact letter might refer to being arrested for dealing or getting high at school every day.  I believe it was important for the kids to own up to what they were doing. As it was, what the parents know about it usually just the tip of the iceberg.

[Nihilanthic]

psy-  Wilderness really does not work the same way the TBS programs do.  It is not the same model.

Never said it was, just said it was nonsense. Two non-equal things can also be unequal to 'right'!

It isn't at all a "you'll stay until we break you and you get it" thing.

Says you? What they 'say' by their actions says something totally different.

Wilderness is really an interim thing and they NEVER claim it "fixes" kids.

Then WTF does it do?!?!

Very few kids are ready to go home after wilderness.  

Says who? Why?

There are exceptions, and if our home situation/school etc. had been different, my son might have been one of them (in retrospect).

Again, says WHO, and WHY?

I can only speak for 2N and a few other programs I have learned about from attendees, but the staffing is good and extensive, and the programs are individualized.

Yet they all hike, read IMPACT letters, do SOLO, have to stay without knowing when they'll ever get out, and do 'group therapy'.

Oh, BTW, you still never answered how they make people who wont hike, hike. Is it pain compliance holds? Humiliation? More time there? Verbal Beratement? What about punishments?

The kids DO get to talk about things they choose- we were told week after week what our son wanted to address and what he wanted to know from us.  

With the wilderness camp not making it a secret what they want him to talk about :rolleyes: And that doesn't change the stuff they DO NOT want to talk about being talked about...

Yes, introspection can be done in other places, but it wasn't going to happen the way things were going at home.  

And whose fault is that, Karen? Why is HE suffering for that, Karen? Why is being dirty out in the woods/desert somehow going to make that happen more than simply being out of your house, Karen?

Adults go on retreats. Why do you think they do this?  It's because you have to MAKE time in your life for reflection and take yourself out of your life.  This is what wilderness does for a teen.  Yes- against their will.

A RETREAT for an adult is such a far cry from a "wilderness" for a "teen", you might as well compare a mexican prison to a weekend at Cancun.

Being put into an extreme environment, being made to do stuff w/ith no real purpose, plus humiliating traumatic things like IMPACT letters, confrontational group therapy, forced hiking, and being trapped and not knowing when you can ever get out is not how someone learns to be introspective. Being in control, feeling safe, and not under any duress usually helps to give someone the ability to learn how to be introspective.

I think it says a lot about how great your son is for learning to do that in such a situation, not how good that Wilderness camp is.

But do NOT compare a vacation for an adult to a wilderness camp sentance to a child, Karen.

[psy]

You can show me all the statistics and articles in the world, but you will not convince me that my son was abused or mistreated in wilderness.

I'm not trying to convince you of that.  I'm just saying you might want to ask him something like "what were the most unpleasant/uncomfortable things at wilderness" and then decide for yourself whether or not it happened.  I'm not here to say it did or did not happen.

Regardless, the "impact letters" i see as abusive, and i find it odd that kids wouldn't complain about it.  I see the answer in two possabilities: They were afraid to complain (postponed graudation), or they felt that was the least of the abuses.  You'd have to ask your son again. Personally i'd rather talk about Carlbrook since you don't have much info on the wilderness program.

I am a believer in 12 step programs, but not for teens.  I think belief in a higher power and turning the addiction over to a higher power is effective.  Many disagree and many have failed to get sober in 12 step programs.  Does this mean it is quackery and no one is really helped?  Of course not.

You'll not find many AA supporters here.  Most would recommend "Rational Recovery" instead.  Plus.  in AA you have to want to change, and realize you have a problem.  Nobody can force you to do that, and programs that use AA(ish) usually fail because of that.
AA does work.  But i think it should only be a last resort.  After all, AA doesn't "cure" anything.  People remain "recovering" ____ addicts for the rest of their lives.

[Nihilanthic]

There are no specific requirements for graduation from wilderness.  There is no "graduation".  You just go to transition camp with your family and then you leave.  Some kids are still at the first "level" and some are at the top "level".  It is very individualized and dependent on a lot of things- one of them being money!

It is not accurate that the program could keep the kid as long as it felt necessary.  Every week we had an extensive phone session- or two-with the therapists and went over where things stood and what we and they thought about when to transition our son.  Our input was carefully considered and we weighed what was said to us.  

I guess I have been to enough group therapy sessions that the sharing of personal information in a trusted group does not alarm me.  It was not a secret why these kids were there, and not much shocked the others.  I think one of the purposes of the reading of the Impact Letters was to prevent the kids from minimizing what had gone on at home.  A kid might report to the group that he smoked pot "once or twice"' and the impact letter might refer to being arrested for dealing or getting high at school every day.  I believe it was important for the kids to own up to what they were doing. As it was, what the parents know about it usually just the tip of the iceberg.

So no goals, nothing quantified, nothing measureable, just when we say so? Yeah, thats really therapeutic, especially when you cant leave and go back to the real world until "they say so". Good way to make them try as hard as they can to make the people who say so happy, isn't it?

Also, did he get any unfettered uncensored unmonitored phone time with you, or just with the program's therapists present?

Furthermore, what you want to willingly share to a 'trusted group' does NOT reflect what a CHILD is MADE to infront of a bunch of other CHILDREN that are most certainly not a 'trusted group', except for the fact that they have no way what-so-fucking-ever to tell anyone what they heard anyway.

I think one of the purposes of the reading of the Impact Letters was to prevent the kids from minimizing what had gone on at home.  A kid might report to the group that he smoked pot "once or twice"' and the impact letter might refer to being arrested for dealing or getting high at school every day.  I believe it was important for the kids to own up to what they were doing.

That is called CONFRONTATION and HUMILIATION, Karen. That is exactly the point we're trying to bring up here. That is not therapy. That is "you bad kid, you had it great and you ruined it, now you're living in filth, you naughty boy, you better improve or you'll never get out!".

Its not psychotherapy, its interrogation, forced confession, and that has no place with someone who is supposed to get therapy.

BTW, just what is in the IMPACT LETTER for someone who is there for 'social skills', ADD, ADHD, Depression, or because they were raped or otherwise abused?

[Karass]

psy-  Wilderness really does not work the same way the TBS programs do.  It is not the same model.

The only reason "wilderness" and "TBS" can coexist in the same thought or thread is that the target customer base (StugglingParents) is the same. Beyond that, they have very little in common. I would argue (and have argued) that if a teen gets some benefit from wilderness (some do), there is a significant chance that the benefit will be undone if he/she is directly shipped off from wilderness to a residential program. Hopelessness and the feeling that no matter what one does, he has no control over his immediate future is not a very therapeutic emotional state, IMHO.

I never had any intention of sending my kid away to a so-called school, and when I started getting pressure to make such a decision -- halfway through his 7 weeks in wilderness -- I found Fornits & ST, and met a number of activists, program parents, ex-program parents, etc., and I started to get educated. The more I learned, the more convinced I was that someone was trying to sell me something my child and my family didn't need. Ironically, my son's wilderness program didn't steer me toward any particular TBS's and as far as I could determine, they really had no financial connection with any other programs.

No one should be naive enough to think that 7 weeks of anything is going to address problems that took years to develop, or that anyone is going to be "fixed" in any way. The same can be said for a 12-18 month stint in a residential program.

[Nihilanthic]

Yet the children are still sure as hell kept out in the woods for weeks at a time and then locked up in a TBS for years at a time, even though it doesn't do anything...

so why do you do it?  :roll: Where is the justification? All you have done is try to avoid the whole "IT DOESNT DO ANYTHING" thing we've brought up along with the lack of evidence issue, but now you're basically saying you're doing something for no reason.

 :roll: wow.

[Deborah]

Im sure no kid complains about the impact letter because behaving appropriately is an essential part of progression. To complain makes it look as if you are an unwilling participant. I dont doubt that what some parents write might be true. I just dont understand how forcing a kid to share it with the world can be seen as without humiliation. Why was it that you chose this route and not the natural  consequences of being kciked out of school which i assume would be going to the local public school for a while? Would the local school not accept your son?

And what if the tables were turned... and the parents received some of this Impact "therapy". Say we round up all their friends from the country club and business associates and let the kid read his Impact letter, listing all the many ways his parents had failed and the emotional/ psychological/ developmental issue this caused him.
Whadda ya say Karen, would you be game? Can you imagine how that scenario could be therapeutic for you?

[Charly]

Niles- I'm sorry, but I can't deal with you.  Perhaps my tag-team partner can do better.

My ONLY point in discussing adult retreats was to point out that introspection is hard to do in the midst of real life.  It often has to be forced.
You are attacking me and I'm not going to engage.  Sorry.

[Nihilanthic]

Karen, how good does THIS feel right now to you, over the internet, on a computer, with nobody to stare at you getting CONFRONTED by all of us, on computers, hundreds or thousands of miles away.

Sucks, huh?

Imagine being a child, helpless, stuck out in the middle of nowhere, dependant on the people you turn to for survival doing this to you, in person, with people watching and Jeering, saying I AGREE evertime someone pulls you down or picks you apart, forced to read aloud a IMAPACT letter about all the wrongs you've ever done, with no clue when you'll ever escape.

And I'm not even gonna go into how much the hygene issue sucks for girls out there... you can figure that out yourself. Just be glad they allow daily pantyliners.