Carlbrook

[Nihilanthic]

One time I talked to a WWASPS graduate kid on MSN... he hit me up.

When I told him I know all about wwasps seminars he kind of freaked out.

 

[Charly]

Sorry-  I forgot to put the answer.  It was a big NO.  
I'll ask him if he'll write about the workshops, but he's off on a trip and we're not with him right now.  Stay tuned.

[Anonymous]

One idea that interests me is one of a kid not buying in to the programme or faking it to make it. Putting aside for a moment whether or not programmes are abusive etc- if a kid is not buying in, trying etc  a therapy which they did not choose, why would the school and the parent see the merit in making the kid continue or making it a reward punishment situation? Eg if you dont do it we will send you to a wilderness program till you do. If the goal is to make someone better and what is being done is not working after some time then what makes a parent continue?
Oz Girl

[69]

One time I talked to a WWASPS graduate kid on MSN... he hit me up.

When I told him I know all about wwasps seminars he kind of freaked out.

 

Hey its supposed to be a big secret, you know.  

Better start looking over your shoulder for Gilcrease

[hanzomon4]

One idea that interests me is one of a kid not buying in to the programme or faking it to make it. Putting aside for a moment whether or not programmes are abusive etc- if a kid is not buying in, trying etc  a therapy which they did not choose, why would the school and the parent see the merit in making the kid continue or making it a reward punishment situation? Eg if you dont do it we will send you to a wilderness program till you do. If the goal is to make someone better and what is being done is not working after some time then what makes a parent continue?
Oz Girl

Well like I said thats not therapy, nor does it have any meaningful positive effects. The improvement of a kids behavior after being in these facilities is mostly from growing up and not being in the same environment in my opinion. It seems like parents favor Bully therapy over good therapy because it's more about getting the kid to comply as opposed to getting to the root of a child's behavior, a path that requires patience. Bully therapy requires little to no patience from the parent. I think the lack of patience amongst desperate parents is supported by what most parent say about more traditional therapy  "I've tried counseling  but it was ineffective"... Did it not work or did it not work fast enough? When I was receiving counseling for clinical depression I wasn't seeing any improvement. It took me 5 years before I start to see results.

I'm not saying that parents who choose placement in residential programs are bad people, I'm just saying that desperation causes parents to lose their patience and seek out those that promise "change through cutting edgy therapy". Kids that claim to have improved because of the program are basically giving credit to the program when that credit actually belongs to growing up. The Program is constantly driving this point home.... The "we're saving you" point.

Whats so dangerous about crediting the Program for the change in a kid's behavior is that it justifies "abuse in the name of treatment" in the eyes of the parent and the child. Parents must realize that "Tough-love" programs sell compliance, not therapy. Kids need to understand that the harsh wilderness/boot-camp experience was not necessary for them to change their behavior. In a news article on Thayer a girl said that she was forced to eat her own vomit but thought that, in the end, it was all for the better. Her statement proves my point that, even in cases of extreme abuse, kids are willing to accept "abuse in the name of treatment" as necessary.  The attitude that harsh programs(programs like what Charly described, not Thayer) are ok is a slippery slope because it recedes the line of what we will and won't accept, allowing programs to get worse yet still have parental(and child) approval

[hanzomon4]

This post is me finishing up my previous post(8 posts up)........

The reason why Programs use the Battered Woman Syndrome(BWS) or thought-reform model and accept kids with issues like depression, behaviors such as game-addition, behavior caused by parental or sexual abuse, homosexuality, and eating disorders is simple... Money.. Programs make money by enrolling as many kids as possible and keeping them as long as possible. Hiring educated counselors and staff cost money, money that would come out of the programs profit so they don't hire educated, qualified professionals. "Tough-love" therapy is the "enzyte" of options offered to parents with troubled teens. "Tough-love" therapy promises the results that the more traditional therapies will not. However "Tough-love" therapy is a silver bullet made out of foil paper, it makes claims that it can't live up to.

The "supporting of the program" as a requirement to succeed in the program is necessary for the program to appear as though it's affective in lieu of objective evidence supporting that claim. Most professionals believe that the Tough-love approach is ineffective and counter intuitive to it's stated goal of improving the behavior of a child, and even makes bad behavior worse. Despite this fact, desperate parents are willing to accept the frivolous claims offered by "Tough-love" programs.

Children also believe that these programs where necessary for them to change their behavior, partially because believing this is part of the program and because many kids do get better. However kids doing well post-program is somewhat misleading. Most kids would be doing fine whether they were in a program, or not, because kids grow up. The change that comes with maturity is great and can make bad kids into upstanding adults. I'm sure most parents who send their kids off to "Tough-love" programs can look back and see a radical change in their life during the teen years and again once they became parents. The teen-help industry does not acknowledge this fact and society peddles the fallacy that kids today are the worst generation of all time. According to Szalavitz

Statistics show today's teen is less likely to have unsafe sex or experiment with alcohol and most drugs than teens 20 years ago

LINK
However parents still believe that their "problem child" is headed towards ruin and, in ever increasing numbers, ship their children(and money) off to "Tough-love" camps to save them from a paper tiger.

It's true that some kids do need therapy and are headed towards ruin, but boot-camps and wilderness programs don't offer real therapy. This is evident in the fact that they claim to be able to fix just about anything and hire untrained staff, in most cases, the owners being untrained themselves. True therapy asks why, "Tough-love" programs say "you will obey or else". Well that sums up my 2 cents... I hope that more parents will act, not out of desperation, but out of factually based truths. Your child may need help but anyone offering the magic answer is not the answer to your child's behavior...

[Deborah]

One idea that interests me is one of a kid not buying in to the programme or faking it to make it. Putting aside for a moment whether or not programmes are abusive etc- if a kid is not buying in, trying etc  a therapy which they did not choose, why would the school and the parent see the merit in making the kid continue or making it a reward punishment situation? Eg if you dont do it we will send you to a wilderness program till you do. If the goal is to make someone better and what is being done is not working after some time then what makes a parent continue?
Oz Girl

The obvious for the program... Money.
Programs use the kid's confessions coupled with 'not working the program' to impress upon the parent that their kid is far worse off than they (parents) expected, to reinforce the notion that their kid really needs the treatment they offer, and because they are particularly 'resistent', it may take longer, and possibly several stints in wilderness.

When you're using a shock device to train a dog, you don't stop if they're resistent, you up the voltage. Everyone has their breaking point. They aren't addressing any issues the kid has that might benefit from ethical counseling, they are about breaking the will and creating actors.  If humiliation doesn't work, restrictions. If restrictions doesn't work, more intense deprivation in wilderness. If wilderness doesn't work, more wilderness.

It appears to 'work' for some, imo, because they were half conditioned when they arrived. Those who weren't and are highly resistent are as risk for serious injury or death.

[Deborah]

However kids doing well post-program is somewhat misleading. Most kids would be doing fine whether they were in a program, or not, because kids grow up. The change that comes with maturity is great and can make bad kids into upstanding adults.

The argument has been made here for years, that the positive results attributed to programs most often have to do with maturity than any sort of therapeutic effect. Secondly, they learn to 'act' the way the program/their parents desire in order to avoid future placements.

What I have noticed recently is that program supporters have embraced that and made it okay... at least they were in a safe place while they matured a bit, without having analyzed whether or not it was indeed a 'safe' place. If the means justify the end.  

Without the hard data, lack of efficacy will not definitively be shown. Until then, parents will continue to be duped into believing their kid is having some kind of therapeutic transformation, best case. Worse case, $100,000+ surrogate parenting service.

[exhausted]

How does anyone here feel about totally out of control teens joining the army?

[Anonymous]

As long as it is their decision to do so super
Oz Girl

[exhausted]

right.....the reason I asked is ...... do you know how many kids commit suicide while in the army? the degree of bullying? The break em down and build em up attitude that exists?

recently a young man lost his life because he didn't obey an order in quite the right way, he was made to run in searing heat with a weighted back pack with no water as a punishment

ring any bells?

[Nihilanthic]

Thats all the army IS for the infantry, more or less. The glorified hazing that is bootcamp is just a regressional period to make them take orders better under stress because if combat troops don't, well, a lot of people die and the commanders can't exactly do their jobs.

Plus the whole 'operating under stress' stuff blah blah blah.

The Army is not a 'fix it' for anything. You should see the statistics for what guys do after being discharged... if anything they'd grow up while in the army, but the army won't grow them up.

[exhausted]

You'd be surprised how many parents force their kids into the army here, we don't have programs, so tjhey send them off to the army to fix them, the only differences are between boot camps and the army are
1) you get paid
2) parenst dont have to pay for their kid being there

It's every bit as bad as sending your kid to a prgram, heh, "send them to the army, it'll make a man out of them"

No it won't, it'll make them suicidal or give them long term PTSD

[Nihilanthic]

Send them to the army and they'll make them a soldier, or discharge them if they're a totally hopeless case.

Either way, if there is any problem the most that will be done is it will be covered up until they're discharged. The army is the freaking army its not some sort of a therapy center with a rifle range!!!

The only people who SHOULD get into the army are otherwise mentally and physically healthy or able to GET physically healthy. Mental problems and combat do not mix...

[exhausted]

Should being the key word

as my above post

But then sending someone who is mentally ill to a program to get fixed is just as barmy.....