Carlbrook

[Deborah]

Thanks, Deborah.  I guess I thought the Carlbrook program was a lot different.  It appears as though it is not.  I think they softened it up a little, but the CEDU elements are there.

Yes, just as HLA did. I think this was a goal of the programs that sprouted in the east and north. There seemed to be an effort to present them more as 'schools with structure' with an 'emotional growth curriculm' than programs, set themselves apart from the lower end programs, and charge a heftier price. Appealing to a different socieo-economic sector.  Research Brace and Houghton and others around that time. Fact is, they can't even appear to be 'effective' without the austere CEDU methods, first and foremost, severing contact between parent and child.

I can see how it could affect a younger kid more severely than an older one- especially an emotionally hardened kid like my son.  Perhaps his very flaws served him well.

Indeed. That and his age. My son was so confused (at 14) the first 6 months, he didn't know which way was up. There was no pleasing these people. Rules weren't clear and change to suit their whims. He was punished for unproven accusations, and on and on. Talk about a recipe perfect for destroying trust. It couldn't get much better. This was about breaking him, and it wasn't really 'effective' until HLA provided perjured testimony to keep him there. He seemed to hold on well, as psy was commenting on, until the judge ruled he'd stay.

I really do feel that 2N built on my son's strengths and leadership abilities, just as I can see how these things were negatives at Carlbrook.

Programs don't teach leadership, it's the antithesis of their goal. My son was a leader before program. He had a fine counselor while incarcerated in their wilderness program, the only decent person associated with either facility, that raved about his level of maturity and leadership qualities. Appreciated the parenting job I'd done and asked why the hell he was there. He prefered their wilderness program and would have gladly done his two year sentence there, in spite of the abuse he endured from the ex military staff, because of this one lone counselor who had her shit together. One person who was real and treated him with genuine respect. It very possible that you too were fortunate to have a good therapist at 2N. But, given the other unnecessary torture associated with wilderness, I have to go with Niles comment about putting a cherry on top of a turd. roflao. That was too good Niles!! One good therapist, does not a good program make.
Further, I know a bit about your personality, as did the program, I can assure you. Demanding parents get better treatment. I would bet money that you were on top of them demanding what you wanted. They obliged. I'd like to hear from some of the kids from there and staff. There are just too many red flags, same MO, same lingo; just like with Carlbrook/CEDU.
Given the high turnover in programs, it's hit or miss on staff, but the majority are going to be fresh out of school and trained in the program (CEDU) methods.

Enough to know that strength/resistance could throw a monkey wrench into things.  They liked for things to go smoothly, and that wasn't what my son tended to bring to a community.

Ya know, what these angry kids need is Comedy Camp, not wilderness torture or Mind Fuck Warehouses. Too tired to go into my thinking on that, but maybe you'll get the drift.  Just too say, the air in these places is way to serious and dire.

My thoughts now turn to the thousands of parents who are not aware of the methods and who haven't had the discussion with their kids.  I am all about informed consent. Programs should be up front, by force if necessary, about their methods. Parents aren't going to read about the fine details of the Marathon Workshops in the parent manual. They aren't going to read that their daughter may be required to re-enact her rape as the 'victim'. They aren't going to be given a demographics sheet listing all the attempted suicides, assaults, inappropriate sexual relationships between staff and students, and on and on.
We need accurate stats on the industry. Until then, rampant talking out in group. That's what we've got. I appreciate you staying with the dialogue, although, I'm sure we'll continue to agree to disagree on many things.

[Nihilanthic]

Deb, I want your input on this:

He was given an assignment where everytime he regarded himself as an "exception" he was to announce it. In other words, if they were told to go wash off their cups, and he thought to himself, "I don't have to do that right now", he had to announce that he was an exception. It was humorous, but very effective in teaching him how often he saw himself as an exception to everything.

Do you find that to be actual therapy, just bullshit, potentially abusive but not to him, or an outright attempt at breaking someone down?

[Anonymous]

Is a dunce cap abusive?

[psy]

Is a dunce cap abusive?

yes.  and don't ask me while i'm still up...  goddamned insomnia.

[Anonymous]

SOLVE ALL YOUR PARENTING PROBLEMS

$19.95 - Available in three lengths - Tween 8' - Preteen 12' - Tween 16' (with pole for yard play)

[Anonymous]

[Nihilanthic]

hey, a few people would LOVE THAT.

Remember, its what you make of it!

[Deborah]

Deb, I want your input on this:

He was given an assignment where everytime he regarded himself as an "exception" he was to announce it. In other words, if they were told to go wash off their cups, and he thought to himself, "I don't have to do that right now", he had to announce that he was an exception. It was humorous, but very effective in teaching him how often he saw himself as an exception to everything.

Do you find that to be actual therapy, just bullshit, potentially abusive but not to him, or an outright attempt at breaking someone down?

I think it was a bad example. They "told him" to go wash his cup. He had sense enough to know when his cup needed washing and didn't really need to be told. One of those lame-ass contrived rules, jump when ordered. I figure his opposition to this had more to do with righteous indignation than feeling 'exceptional'. No one, particularly strong willed people, like to be ordered around, or have their intelligence insulted. Natural consequences would be that he not wash the cup and have to scrape dried-on oatmeal off before he ate his next meal. Or eat from a dirty cup. The problem with programs and many parents, they aren't happy with 'natural' consequences, they're not harsh enough and they don't get the pleasure of punishing their subject.

Anyway, if this is how it was used, they were conditioning him to bark on command, and if he didn't then he must feel 'exceptional'. I feel very certain that he didn't make any agreement with the program or his peers, to wash his cup when everyone else did, or when ordered to do so, so where does 'exceptional' enter the picture? Now, if he were home and it was time to divy up chores and he refused to make a contribution to the household... this might be an accurate example of feeling 'exceptional'. His refusal to wash his cup had no impact on anyone other than himself.

No, I don't think the exercise is inherently abusive. Depends on how it's done and if the person is a willing participant. It could be useful and could be considered 'therapeutic' IF the person so desires to become more aware of something about themselves, and decides to verbalize everytime s/he is aware of doing it. Again, a potentially useful exercise bastardized by the program. Another potentially therapeutic tool lost to BM.

[Charly]

This is why I didn't want to discuss specifics of the therapy.  There is just too much background that goes into it.  My son was a willing participant in this exercise-  I think he might have even helped design it.  They were told generally to "clean up, wash their cups and get ready to go."   It is a SMALL thing, but the neat thing about that environment was that they got to see examples of smaller things instead of being "entitled" to not obey laws or school rules.  I don't want to debate it here, but my son actually enjoyed it and found it interesting to see how the immediate thing that went through his head was always, "except for me!"  There was a lot of individual therapy and discussion that led up to this particular exercise.

TSW- I won't bother responding except to say that since I registered my login here I have not posted anonymously, so please don't try to set me up.  

Deborah- I really value your input and am glad to learn more about your son's experience.  I can't imagine the devastation of the judge's ruling and the complete loss of hope.  We all bring a lot of background and individual experiences to this discussion, and we will never agree on a lot of this, but I, for one, am open to learning and have never been unwilling to change my mind and admit that I was wrong.

[Nihilanthic]

Just keep in mind that without specifics you saying how good the therapy is rings very empty here!

Nevertheless, that therapist was a cherry on the wilderness turd, so to speak. I'm not about to be unhappy that your son got help he needed, but the turd didn't make the therapist work any better... the therapist worked!

And cherries are pretty nice, granted theres no crap on them anyway.

[Charly]

TSW wrote:  "Yo! Fornit Brothers and Sisters... If this person response lay off him or her. I would like to hear what the person has to say in a constructive flame free environment. A good dialogue is healthy for creating new points of view on both sides of the issues."

This is what you asked for some time ago.  This is what I am trying to do.   If I were attention seeking, it certainly would not be for the kind of attention I have tended to get on this thread.  I'm sorry you can't accept my willingness to discuss these programs and hear all viewpoints.  No one is making you participate in the thread.

[Deborah]

This is why I didn't want to discuss specifics of the therapy.  There is just too much background that goes into it.  My son was a willing participant in this exercise-  I think he might have even helped design it.  They were told generally to "clean up, wash their cups and get ready to go."   It is a SMALL thing, but the neat thing about that environment was that they got to see examples of smaller things instead of being "entitled" to not obey laws or school rules.  I don't want to debate it here, but my son actually enjoyed it and found it interesting to see how the immediate thing that went through his head was always, "except for me!"  There was a lot of individual therapy and discussion that led up to this particular exercise.

It's not necessary to discuss your son specifically. We can discuss this hypothetically. But, since the so-called 'therapy' is the heart and soul of programs, parents should know what it entails.
 
Nothing wrong with pointing out when you think someone is acting "entitled", or them agreeing to notice/verbalize (cop to) when they are. I think it works better in real world situations, not a contrived environment with senseless rules designed to make a point, too often unrelated. Like ripping apart a kids bed and making them redo it because there's one tiny wrinkle. Too extreme, unless you intend to condition the person to be an anal perfectionist and have unrealistic expectations of self and others.

If your son was a willing participant, fine. I think this example was a missed opportunity to allow him to learn from the 'natural' consequences of not washing his cup, which had no impact on anyone other than himself, and a misapplication of the "entitlement exercise".
What is "entitlement" but the belief that one doesn't have to contribute, someone else will pick up their slack. (Reminds me of the mom who told me her 16 yr old daughter didn't flush the toilet after use!  :rofl:) They don't get to that place by themselves, someone has contributed to their 'disability'.

Just like with Brat Camp. Kid didn't build a fire, he had to eat uncooked oats, rice, lentils. That crosses the line for me. Don't want hot food, fine. But the only other option shouldn't be to have to eat food that is intended to be, and better digested, cooked. Inadequate calories and forced marches to get to the next water cache in 100* temps, too extreme and dangerous. Forcing a 14 yr old to sleep alone in the desert alone, who is not psychologically prepared for that experience, and not a willing participant, is abusive.

Kids need to understand the rationale behind rules, and ideally participate in the creation of the rules (household), if the object is to teach the value of social rules. At that point, they're not 'rules' but genunine 'agreements'- one of things my son resented about program- rules created by program were refered to as 'agreements'. Most kids in program are too old for this kind of 'manipulation'. BM works on young kids and animals for a reason. Unrealistic rules and consequences are an insult to their intelligence and more times than not, adds fuel to the fire.

For this industry to ever move into the realm of 'ethical treatment' the methods have to be analyzed and pass scrutiny. This is the whole "do the means justify the end" arguement.

[Oz girl]

Like you Deb i take issue with the take a lot of programmes seem to have on "natural consequences" and entitlement.
It also seems that entitlement is not a hard thing to overcome. if a parent feels that their kid has too much stuff they can just reel things in a little. But a lot of programmes seem to take this mentality beyond the bounds of reason. it seems reasonable to me that If a kid smashes their car due to drink driving or deliberately speeding that the parent would sell it and deal with the huge tantrum that the kid might have. It does not seem reasonable that for not finishing the programme a school will tell a kid that they are a failure and discourage the parents from continuing to support the kid.

[Karass]

Calling the cops is not a good option to do to your kid. It's ironic to rail against abuse and call in the cops. The juvenile justice system can be just as abusive as private programs. So can the psychiatric adolescent system. So unless you know or experienced these things, don't be reccomneding them so freely. It's like parents who reccomend programs off the cuff.

I have never had a positive experience with cops and the justice system, either involving myself or my son. There were times when things were really out of control with him that my wife would say, "why don't we just call the cops?" and I would say "are you fucking kidding me?!!! How is that going to help anything?"

I hate to admit it, but one thought that was a factor in our decision to send him to wilderness was that it would look good to the juvenile court and his probation officer, and that he might get off probation early -- before he failed a court-mandated drug test or some other probation rule and got deeper into the juvenile justice system. It worked. He got off early, and part of it was the perception that his parents "really did something about him." It sucks, I know, and it was definitely not the major factor in our decision, but it was a factor nonetheless.

I also don't mind admitting that I bought him detox kits when I knew he needed them or else he wouldn't pass the pee test.

[Charly]

Back to Carlbrook- and regarding consequences.  One thing I really disagreed with was not allowing the kid to go to school as "punishment".  I understand the concept of taking away something important to the kid if there has been a rule violation of significance, but withholding education crossed the line, in my opinion.  They knew my son cared about his schoolwork and his grades, and one whole quarter got messed up for him because he was kept out of class and then not allowed to take his finals until 7 weeks later (after wilderness).  He had missed all the review and forgotten a lot of the material by then.  The teachers were supposed to figure out a way to average his grades, but the academic head (Bender) was so incompetent the teachers had no idea what they were supposed to do.  Parents were not allowed to deal directly with the teachers- we weren't even given their email addresses (although some of them violated this rule to contact me).  I sent the forms to the school about 3 times that the teachers needed to fill out as recs for the next schools for my son, and the forms kept "getting lost" and the teachers never got them.  We were months late getting that done.

Entitlement and being the "exception" are certainly learned concepts.  They are learned from the parents AND from living in an affluent community and attending schools with  other entitled kids.  This was certainly one of my great failings as a parent, because I treated myself as an "exception" throughout my life and picked and chose what rules and moral codes applied to me. It's an easy thing to fall into and a harder thing to change.