Author Topic: Typical Day at Sagewalk  (Read 68163 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2005, 03:47:00 PM »
Exactly, there are other options that don't place blame and guilt on people and have the only goal be that of submission and dependency. Most mainstream family therapists would think that was ridiculous.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #91 on: July 29, 2005, 04:06:00 PM »
And what are these other options?  Once a family has exhausted therapy (these kids, by their own admission, can lie to and manipulate ANY therapist they are seeing once or twice a week), has no ability to impose consequences- what then, oh wise ones???
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #92 on: July 29, 2005, 05:11:00 PM »
Well let's see now. Thomas Jefferson was a pain in the ass, spoiled rich kid when his father died. And, by all accounts, including his own, he only got worse for a couple of years. But, in the end, he turned out OK. So maybe you should die and see what happens?

Or how about Michael J. Fox. He took off from his home in Canada to become a movie star in Hollywood at the age of 16. Obviously, he was delusional and out of control. Certainly he was destined to suck dick in the Tenderloin District and any right thinking parent should nip that in the bud to save his life. Not these irresponsible, codependent, enabling, weak, horrible parents. They wished him luck, kept in touch, gave him all the support in the world. What losers, eh? Maybe you should try that.

Or, if you want some old school wisdom from an old school, textbook hero, try this. "I've found that the best way to give advice to my children is to find out what they want to do and then advise them to do it." --Winston Churchill

Seriously, have you ever considered that all that "helping" might be contributing to the problems? Ever seen the movie "Anger Management"? Do you understand what passive aggressive means? If all else fails, at least quit doing it. Maybe the major part of the problem is that the kid has had just about all the help they can stand. Maybe not. But, before you resort to desparate means in an heroic rescue story ripe for the O channel where you play the hero/heroin, first do no harm.


The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #93 on: July 29, 2005, 05:12:00 PM »
Wait, one more glib, cliche reference. Remember what happened to the Magician's Apprentice? Went monkeying around in things he had no business monkeying with. And every attempt to unfuck himself only made it worse. Based on very old and well preserved germanic folklore.

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http://www.cagw.org/' target='_new'>Tom Schatz, president of Citizens Against Government Waste

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #94 on: July 29, 2005, 06:19:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-07-29 13:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"And what are these other options?  Once a family has exhausted therapy (these kids, by their own admission, can lie to and manipulate ANY therapist they are seeing once or twice a week), has no ability to impose consequences- what then, oh wise ones???"


Do you really want to talk about lying and manipulating people? What do you call lying to kids to get them into rehab, then MANIPULATING them into doing exactly what you want at every single waking and sleeping moment of their young lives? By doing things like, I don't know, making their lives as uncomfortable as you can within the confines of the law, of course, we wouldn't want to do anything illegal. The parents and these facilities put these kids to shame when you start talking about lying and manipulating people.

Family therapists, if they're good at all, will be able to provide a safe environment where the kids won't feel as though they have to be defensive. DUH.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #95 on: July 29, 2005, 08:01:00 PM »
Therapeutic wilderness programs such as Sage Walk are probably helpful for some kids, but I would be VERY cautious about sending your child to this kind of camp. This summer we came very close to sending our son to a camp like Sage Walk. For two years he has been smoking pot and doing terribly at school, stealing from us and lately was becoming pretty defiant. He has ADHD and an anxiety disorder. He's not a bad kid, just making bad choices. He has been in counseling for his drug use and is on meds. for his ADHD and anxiety. Recently we met with an educational consultant and were ready to send our son to one of the camps he recommended until we found out that he would not be able to contact us by telephone at all, and would only be able to correspond by weekly letters that were screened by the counselors at the camp. (This would work for a kid with an anxiety disorder? I don't think so.) He would not be allowed to come home until his therapist at the camp deemed him qualified to do so. After the camp experience, he was going to have been strongly recommended to attend at therapeutic boarding school out of state. Essentially, we would be turning over our son to people we had never met, and with unknown (to us) credentials. And the price for this? $425 a day for the camp (six weeks or more) and tuition at one of the therapeutic boarding schools? $60,000 to $80,000 a year...and these camps and schools are springing up all over the place. Are these money-making ventures? Indeed they are...and not necessarily well-regulated either.

We know several families whose children have experienced these camps and have come back resentful and not at all "cured;" after several months some of these kids were right back doing what they were doing before they went (drugs, etc.) with an even greater vengeance.

As for our son, we're trying to work with him at home by making sure he is doing something positive with his time (working out at a gym, working a part-time job, getting tutored), rather than just hanging out with his drug-using friends, and we are working closely with his drug counselor so we as parents are making better parenting choices (establishing better rules, consequences, and holding to them, for example). After a lot of thought, we came to the conclusion that he will always be confronted with making choices and it is better for him to work on how to make better choices here at home than being pulled out of reality for a time only to be put back in it later; prolonging the confrontation with his old friends, the local drug dealers, his school work, and his relationship with us at home. It's a real day-to day-challenge, a lot of hard work, but hopefully it will make a more permanent and lasting impact on him and us.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #96 on: July 29, 2005, 09:27:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-07-29 17:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"  Therapeutic wilderness programs such as Sage Walk are probably helpful for some kids, but I would be VERY cautious about sending your child to this kind of camp. This summer we came very close to sending our son to a camp like Sage Walk. For two years he has been smoking pot and doing terribly at school, stealing from us and lately was becoming pretty defiant. He has ADHD and an anxiety disorder. He's not a bad kid, just making bad choices. He has been in counseling for his drug use and is on meds. for his ADHD and anxiety. Recently we met with an educational consultant and were ready to send our son to one of the camps he recommended until we found out that he would not be able to contact us by telephone at all, and would only be able to correspond by weekly letters that were screened by the counselors at the camp. (This would work for a kid with an anxiety disorder? I don't think so.) He would not be allowed to come home until his therapist at the camp deemed him qualified to do so. After the camp experience, he was going to have been strongly recommended to attend at therapeutic boarding school out of state. Essentially, we would be turning over our son to people we had never met, and with unknown (to us) credentials. And the price for this? $425 a day for the camp (six weeks or more) and tuition at one of the therapeutic boarding schools? $60,000 to $80,000 a year...and these camps and schools are springing up all over the place. Are these money-making ventures? Indeed they are...and not necessarily well-regulated either.



We know several families whose children have experienced these camps and have come back resentful and not at all "cured;" after several months some of these kids were right back doing what they were doing before they went (drugs, etc.) with an even greater vengeance.



As for our son, we're trying to work with him at home by making sure he is doing something positive with his time (working out at a gym, working a part-time job, getting tutored), rather than just hanging out with his drug-using friends, and we are working closely with his drug counselor so we as parents are making better parenting choices (establishing better rules, consequences, and holding to them, for example). After a lot of thought, we came to the conclusion that he will always be confronted with making choices and it is better for him to work on how to make better choices here at home than being pulled out of reality for a time only to be put back in it later; prolonging the confrontation with his old friends, the local drug dealers, his school work, and his relationship with us at home. It's a real day-to day-challenge, a lot of hard work, but hopefully it will make a more permanent and lasting impact on him and us.



"


Awesome!  Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.  Who knows?  Maybe Ginger will start a thread for parents like you aren't afraid to ... JUST SAY NO!

:wave:

Barbe
TAUSA
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #97 on: July 29, 2005, 11:15:00 PM »
I might add that when we started to back out of committing to send our son to above mentioned camp, the ed. con. started to get very nasty, criticizing us for allowing our son to sway us, for "waffling," and generally criticizing our parenting skills--as well as portraying our son as almost a lost cause, someone who was not going to turn himself around unless he went off to wilderness camp.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #98 on: July 29, 2005, 11:39:00 PM »
I predict that within 6 months you will be sending your son to a program.  You will not be able to manage him at home, and his drug use will greatly increase.  Perhaps wilderness is not the right place due to his anxiety disorder, but there are very good reasons why the kids can only communicate by letter.  The family dynamics are usually a big part of the underlying problem, and need to be removed from the equation before progress can be made.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2005, 12:03:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-07-29 20:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I predict that within 6 months you will be sending your son to a program.  You will not be able to manage him at home, and his drug use will greatly increase.  Perhaps wilderness is not the right place due to his anxiety disorder, but there are very good reasons why the kids can only communicate by letter.  The family dynamics are usually a big part of the underlying problem, and need to be removed from the equation before progress can be made."


What a crock! The whole point of NOT removing a kid from the family is because the family dynamics are part of the problem; AND MUST BE ADDRESSED. Family therapy is the best way to address these issues. Removing a kid, changing him, then dumping him back into the dysfunctional family solves nothing. Rehab specialists have known that since the 1960s.

What is the deal with allowing dysfunctional and perhaps abusive parents the priviledge of blaming everything on the teen and sending him/her away to be fixed, while they sit at home smug and guilt free thinking they 'did the right thing?'

The real reason for cutting ties with the parents is to deny the teen the support system. He is easier to break if his parents are not there to protect him. It is easier to manipulate the parents if the program can screen the letters and do damage control by calling the parents and misinforming them that their child is just lying and manipulating. The child cries for help and the program tells the parents not to interfere or they will mess up the kid's progress. Say what you like, but it is the perfect set up for abuse. It is a pedophile's (or sadist's) dream come true.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2005, 12:38:00 AM »
That last comment regarding where our son will be in six months doesn't warrant a response, except thanks for the encouraging words.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2005, 01:25:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-07-29 20:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I predict that within 6 months you will be sending your son to a program.  You will not be able to manage him at home, and his drug use will greatly increase.  Perhaps wilderness is not the right place due to his anxiety disorder, but there are very good reasons why the kids can only communicate by letter.  The family dynamics are usually a big part of the underlying problem, and need to be removed from the equation before progress can be made."


WROMG...that's like trying to change a flat tire by replacing the fan belt. You fix the problem by addressing THE problem, not another one.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #102 on: July 30, 2005, 05:38:00 AM »
:smile:

I think that would be a great name for a subforum.. and if we could lure chi3 or detleg back here they could make a few posts too!

Never in the history of any nation has an education system been so on the point of disintegration and decay as the education system in this country...We know that education in this country is as bad as it can be.  We know that it is old-fashioned, irrelevant, and not meaningful.
--U.S. Senator Abraham A. Ribicoff, 1970

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #103 on: July 30, 2005, 09:38:00 AM »
Your advice is sound and we totally agree with what you are suggesting. Actually, we are doing most of it. We are in family counseling, our son is in a local rehab program (we tried individual counseling but found that it was not comprehensive enough) and he is also being counseled separately for his anxiety disorder. His present counselor in the rehab program is excellent, and we believe he is one of the first people to make an impact on our son's drug use. He has great support at school and everyone is on the "same page" of support for him. The next step will be inpatient treatment and after that a local long- term residential program if he messes up again; he knows we are very serious about this--it's not a threat but just what should happen if what we are doing at home is not working. He knows this and I believe it is causing him to make some better decisions.

My husband and son just got back from a rigorous group camping and canoeing trip. They really enjoyed it and we plan on more trips. The only piece you suggested that we're missing is the month-long outdoor/wilderness ("non-therapeutic") experience but we have a place in mind that sounds appropriate if that is the path we decide to take.

It is exhausting, sometimes downright hellish, but it just makes so much more sense to work things out at home. We have always been a close, loving family and we will NOT give up on our son. He has been dealt an alcoholic, drug-abusing gene pool, as well as other mental health issues that have made him more prone to drug abuse, and our sometimes too-flexible parenting hasn't helped, but we are in this together and will fight it through.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #104 on: July 30, 2005, 10:00:00 AM »
Sorry to be the stick in the mud here, but am I to understand that you're giving the kid speed then having him treated professionally for anxiety and also trying to prevent him from using cannabis? And, all the while, you hold over his head the threat of long term residential treatment? Don't you think that's rather at odds w/ the objective to reduce anxiety?

Kudos to ya for not shipping him off and for staying involved w/ him. But please don't think that he's just not bad enough to warrant it. Look around here and see what some of us have been through. Nobody's bad enough to deserve what they're selling as therapy because it's not therapy. You might just as well plan on trepanation as a backup plan as that.

I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
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