Typical Day at Sagewalk

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-28 16:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-07-28 16:03:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Well, we all know what they say about good intentions so I won't go there...





but it seems you are suggesting you wish your parents had sent you to a program? OH BOY are you on the wrong forum.  :rofl: "

Im kinda new here but Ive seen a few posts that didnt completely slam programs. Im not for or against em - theyre just not for everyone. And when I think of the brainwashing aspect of it, wilderness programs dont seem as freakish/cultish as something like Landmark EDucation. That be some freaky shit."

First off, why are you here talking about programs, what knowledge do you have of them? If you are wishing your parents sent you, you obviously don't know anything about the programs discussed here. There is a disney forum for teens that think brat camp is cool and want to go. They talk about which one of them is the cutest. Nobody takes it seriously until they are there themselves. And don't think it's like Brat Camp- that is far from reality TV.

[Anonymous]

Like I said, Im not for em or against em. I went to a college with an outdoor recreation program and a couple friends that are rock climbers have thought about working at a program. So thats why Im here. Does Disney really have a forum for teens? Thats kinda creepy. And I know its a lot different working at a program than having to be in one.

[Anonymous]

I'd advise your friends against it, talk to Three Spring Waygookin.

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-07-27 18:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I've made an attempt to respond every post directed at me or reply to one of my posts. However, I am finding more and more difficult to address everything, especially a lot of generalizations, misconceptions, and flatout mistruths presented on this forum.



But the whet the appetite of some of the nay-sayers on this forum, I will express some grievences I do have...



-I know Brat Camp is exploitation, if they were going to make a show of this, it should've been at least voluntary. It sucks to have these kids privacy violated, but you must understand the extremely lucratrive incentive to have 15k therapy program paid for in full.



-Based on what I saw on the intro to BC, Derek should not have been sent to SW. I'm fairly sure that his entire story was not told but if it's just him not taking his medication thats making him act out or whatever, then he just needs to be convinced to take his medication. I'm fairly sure that theres more to the story, however.



-Although I was required to take a physical prior to attending SageWalk, they should've done bloodwork since Diabetes is one of the conditions that prevent enrollment. I think that all students should be tested for Diabetes and Epilepsy.



Despite these, I still stand that SW is a good program. I have no freakin' clue as to why everyone thinks that all the kids are all normal kids and the parents are all abusive and evil, and then one day, they write a check, the kid is sent away and then the parents sit back at home, sip cocktails and laugh, then 45 days later, their children come out as slave robots. SW is never the first option, I read all the material that SW sent my parents (they have archived every single thing that has pertained to SW or any other treatment and circumstances of my behavior), it's no cakewalk for the parents either. They're told that they need to change their ways as well, and they have to work on that as well. It's not just a matter of writing a check either. There is a very lengthy application process.



"

From your description, it would appear that SageWalk is one of the 'better' programs out there. What scares the rest of us is that this show will cause lots of parents to jump on the band wagon and send kids to places like that described at http://www.63days.com. Or worse, send them a WWASP facility.

I wanted to ask you about the punishment. Maybe you didn't experience or see it, but what happens to a teen that absolutely refuses to cooperate. On the show they just wait teens out, but none of the kids on the show are very resistent. I know that if a kid got violent, they would restrain him/her and could have them arrested and taken away if it went far enough, but what if someone just tossed their impact letter into the fire and said, 'Fuck you, I'm not doing this!' or simply refused to hike? I can see that they cannot really kick a kid out because that would only encourage the other kids to emulate the one that got out.

I imagine they would never get to leave? At what point do they say, 'this program is not working for this kid?'

And of course, they would probably recommend one of their lock-up 'theraputic boarding schools' as a solution.

To me, it is this forced coercion where the kid doesn't stand a chance and has no choice that is the main objection I have to these programs. As an atheist/anarchist, to me, the freedom to think what one wants to is the most basic core human right there is. I cannot think of a worse nightmare for someone with my mindset than to be locked into a program of this kind. I don't know how I would handle it, but I bet I would either become seriously violent or seriously suicidal. And if I did, would it be my fault, or the program's? Either way, the program would break me and not help me. It is this no-choice choice bullshit that I cannot get past. You cannot oppose the program without destroying yourself. Thus there is no real choice.

BTW, I'm glad you found value in SageWalk and view it as a positive experience. I wish you continued good fortune in life.

[Nihilanthic]

Who cares how hard it was for the damn parents? thats as irrelevant as it could be, and its stupid to play victim over and over and over. Boo hoo you wasted your money and a piece of what should be the best time of your childs life.

The bottom line is I've still yet to see the programs as anything but coersion and using various stressors to make them easy to change, which is 'brainwashing' with politer terms.

Punishment doesnt make anyone a better person. Finding something positive out of a shitty experience is a good skill but it doesnt condone or justify a bad experience. This has been gone over and over many times. You dont rape people so they have 'emotional growth'. Besides, 'emotional growth' is having a BREAK DOWN in the minds of these programmies and wilderness psychos.

Its all about forcing them to have a break down, but call it a "break through", and disclose all their personal shit and open them up to be more vulnerable and more humiliated "or work through it" and then when theyre open to suggestion you do so... which fits BRAINWASHING TO A T.

Fuck, talk to anyone whose gotten out of a program and wasnt brainwashed by it. They just made up more shit to divuldge and work through to get out... and you have to because eventually you run out of shit to talk about and humiliate yourself with. Its bullshit, not therapy, and punishment is a waste of time at best. I still fail to see the efficacy of these programs and the point behind them.

You either come out with a damaged or brainwashed kid, or a kid who fought the program and (if you follow their rules) someone you kick out anyway! I mean sure, you learn lessons from this mistake and "grow" from it, but so do people who survive being raped or tortured or trauamtic experiences. That still doesnt mean its a good thing to do to someone, you can gorw and mature by other means. Not everyone survives and grows off of it, anyway, plenty of people are broken by it.

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.

--Mark Twain

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-07-28 22:06:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"Who cares how hard it was for the damn parents? thats as irrelevant as it could be, and its stupid to play victim over and over and over. Boo hoo you wasted your money and a piece of what should be the best time of your childs life.



The bottom line is I've still yet to see the programs as anything but coersion and using various stressors to make them easy to change, which is 'brainwashing' with politer terms.



Punishment doesnt make anyone a better person. Finding something positive out of a shitty experience is a good skill but it doesnt condone or justify a bad experience. This has been gone over and over many times. You dont rape people so they have 'emotional growth'. Besides, 'emotional growth' is having a BREAK DOWN in the minds of these programmies and wilderness psychos.



Its all about forcing them to have a break down, but call it a "break through", and disclose all their personal shit and open them up to be more vulnerable and more humiliated "or work through it" and then when theyre open to suggestion you do so... which fits BRAINWASHING TO A T.



Fuck, talk to anyone whose gotten out of a program and wasnt brainwashed by it. They just made up more shit to divuldge and work through to get out... and you have to because eventually you run out of shit to talk about and humiliate yourself with. Its bullshit, not therapy, and punishment is a waste of time at best. I still fail to see the efficacy of these programs and the point behind them.



You either come out with a damaged or brainwashed kid, or a kid who fought the program and (if you follow their rules) someone you kick out anyway! I mean sure, you learn lessons from this mistake and "grow" from it, but so do people who survive being raped or tortured or trauamtic experiences. That still doesnt mean its a good thing to do to someone, you can gorw and mature by other means. Not everyone survives and grows off of it, anyway, plenty of people are broken by it.

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.

--Mark Twain

"

Just for the record. What approach would you take to reach the teenager who simply won't cooperate at all is 'out of control' with drugs, sex, et al?

This is not an attack. I agree with everything in the above message. You state the case in clear and blunt terms. But what action, if any, should one take if they see a kid spiralling down the tubes and completely unwilling to listen, try, or stop drugs, or whatever?

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-28 21:55:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

It is this no-choice choice bullshit that I cannot get past. You cannot oppose the program without destroying yourself. Thus there is no real choice.

Me too. And it's not just about different strokes for different folks. It's that the freedom to walk away is probably the most commonly used spontanious behavior for avoiding serious conflict.

When people start walking off, you get the idea that you must be doing something wrong. Under these circumstances, the subjects are captive and dissent is punished. There's no limit to how far they'll push these kids either emotionally or physically because they have no social reality check on their own behavior. Out there, (or behind the closed door of some BM warehouse) they're gods. Before the program, I had heard many times that power corrupts. Within the program, I saw firsthand how that works.

On2005-07-28 22:26:00, AtomicAnt wrote:


This is not an attack. I agree with everything in the above message. You state the case in clear and blunt terms. But what action, if any, should one take if they see a kid spiralling down the tubes and completely unwilling to listen, try, or stop drugs, or whatever?"

First, understand that the entire market for the troubled parent industry is just a tiny fraction of the whole population. It's not asif this is a brand new concept that the market hasn't discovered yet. This has been going on for 35 years now as a formal treatment method. The market largely rejects it. So you might look to what the majority has been doing in the mean time.

For the most part, we do our level best to keep some order in our homes, anguish over how best to help and support our kids w/o making more trouble than what we're trying to address, and just know that it's not easy being a parent. No one ever said it would be.  

Just look over the struggling teen website under parenting issues. After all the expense to the parent and risk and abuse to the kids, that's right were they seem to find themselves; right back at the beginning, only with a few more issues thrown into the mix.

In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller

[Nihilanthic]

Im just gonna tag-along with what ginger said because I really dont have anything very differnet to add to it...

You basically just do what you can, but let them grow up and make their own choices and their own mistakes. Programs that ultimately do no good and might very well do harm are hardly a "choice" when the option of simply doing nothing (to hurt, might I add) is very much present.

Maybe you do need to just do nothing. Maybe instead of punishing you should try just letting them go out and do it. I mean shit, if you just accept the fact that being a parent means dealing with shit and putting up with a lot, they'll probably come back around to you in time.

There is always the option of a REAL boarding school, or a relative, or a friend, if toughing it out isn't there. People got through this for centuries, and most people since the programs have been around dont need 'em, so why does the hypothetical program parent?

Every man thinks God is on his side. The rich and powerful know he is.
--Jean Anouilh, French dramatist and playwright

[Anonymous]

I haven't read it but the guy who wrote Wilderness Road was Campbell Loughmiller.

001010,
Are you watching this thread?  You were at the Salesmanship Club.  What was it like?

[Anonymous]

Before "Brat Camp," I was only tangentially aware that these places and programs existed. After reading posts and articles, I'm horrified that these programs are basically unregulated, and that a network would essentially provide free advertising for a particular program. There is no independent commentary on what is happening to these children; the commentary is provided by the guy who runs Sagewalk!

While watching, I didn't understand how a licensed therapist could broadcast therapy sessions and not violate some ethical standard. However, it doesn't look to me like the therapist that is often shown on Brat Camp is licensed as a therapist -- she appears to have a degree in counseling from some college in Arizona. Am I correct?

Thanks to everyone who has posted useful links and information.

[Nihilanthic]

So, coersement with nothing but being trapped there? Instead of trying to minimize coersion and still set up settings where its "conform or youre never leaving" (Until youre 18) and just have some campfire raps, why do any of that at all?

I'll admit with the potential for pressure in any setting like that taken aside, its gonna be less abusive than instigating nothing but breakdown after breakdown ala bratcamp (or any program, for that matter) but why do that? Besdies, how do you set up such vague circumstances for leaving? "Improve or youre not leaving" "Curse and you stay longer"... WTF? I'm 20, not in a program and I'd say "fuck that" in a heartbeat. Nobody is going to enjoy being trapped like that.

A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother.

--Anonymous

[Anonymous]

I need to stop looking at this site because the rampant ignorance just upsets me.  "Doing nothing" ceases to be an option at some point.  Adults have the responsibility of caring for their kids-not to mention the fact that they LOVE them.  Also, adults are responsible for the safety of others.  Many of these kids were a threat to others, AND to the families in which they were living.  Do you think the parents should just let the kids steal from them, wreck cars, drive while drunk or stoned.....?
These are simply not acceptable choices, and parents can not let their childen continue this conduct. Parents have jobs, other kids and assets that they need to protect.  At some point, the teen needs to be safe and out of the household.  That is when a placement is made.  You guys just don't get it.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-29 09:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I need to stop looking at this site because the rampant ignorance just upsets me.  "Doing nothing" ceases to be an option at some point.  Adults have the responsibility of caring for their kids-not to mention the fact that they LOVE them.  Also, adults are responsible for the safety of others.  Many of these kids were a threat to others, AND to the families in which they were living.  Do you think the parents should just let the kids steal from them, wreck cars, drive while drunk or stoned.....?

These are simply not acceptable choices, and parents can not let their childen continue this conduct. Parents have jobs, other kids and assets that they need to protect.  At some point, the teen needs to be safe and out of the household.  That is when a placement is made.  You guys just don't get it."

The vast majority of the kids who are sent to these programs are not in as extreme a state as you seem to think. The situations you mention-- stealing, drunk driving, etc., can be solved in SO many ways. But it looks like parents these days just don't want to do the dirty work. So they dump the kids in a gulag, make it someone else's problem, and start whining about how everybody should feel sorry for them, "because it was the hardest choice I ever had to make!"  :roll:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-29 09:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I need to stop looking at this site because the rampant ignorance just upsets me.  "Doing nothing" ceases to be an option at some point.  Adults have the responsibility of caring for their kids-not to mention the fact that they LOVE them.  Also, adults are responsible for the safety of others.  Many of these kids were a threat to others, AND to the families in which they were living.  Do you think the parents should just let the kids steal from them, wreck cars, drive while drunk or stoned.....?

These are simply not acceptable choices, and parents can not let their childen continue this conduct. Parents have jobs, other kids and assets that they need to protect.  At some point, the teen needs to be safe and out of the household.  That is when a placement is made.  You guys just don't get it."

None of the kids there behave in the manner you describe. I hope you do stop coming to this forum, believe me, but it is your posts which reek of ignorance, not ours.  :smile:

[Deborah]

Is it because you believe that a program is the 'only' way, that makes it impossible for you realize that NO one here is saying DO NOTHING. Quite the contrary.
But, by all means, do take care of yourself. No one would want you to FEEL angry or uncomfortable. And when you're leaving, appreciate your freedom to do so- a right that's not available to the teens even when they are being intentionally baited.