Typical Day at Sagewalk

[Anonymous]

:razz: That's true...those were some expensive oats!

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-25 18:15:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What did you end up doing for the hyperthyroidism? I was also diagnosed with that when in a psychiatric hospital once, and even went to see an endo doc, but his talk of radiation and stuff scared me off. I just choose to live with it. I am curious if anything you have done has helped. I am being completely serious, program opinions aside, I am just curious. Thanks. "

Didn't have hyperthyroidism. Turned out to be Type 1 Diabetes. Both are endocrine disorders, so symptoms are somewhat similar. That's what threw me off.

[Anonymous]

Ah, thanks.

[dougm]

On 2005-07-25 18:31:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Wilderness Therapy SHOULD BE VOLUNTARY like REAL THERAPY.



Funny how many Stepfordish program parents and kids swear they "tried everything" except family therapy before resorting to sending the kid away for some expensive "accountability".



It's a racket, Doug.



Face it.  Therapy in the Woods for $20k?



Get Real!



"

LOL, went to family therapy, many times. Nice try, though. :wink:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-25 19:58:00, dougm wrote:

"

On 2005-07-25 18:31:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Wilderness Therapy SHOULD BE VOLUNTARY like REAL THERAPY.





Funny how many Stepfordish program parents and kids swear they "tried everything" except family therapy before resorting to sending the kid away for some expensive "accountability".





It's a racket, Doug.





Face it.  Therapy in the Woods for $20k?





Get Real!





"

LOL, went to family therapy, many times. Nice try, though. :roll:

[Anonymous]

Doug, were you escorted to Sage Walk or did you go willingly?

Were your parents "referred" by someone?  How did they hear about SW?

What about the other kids?  What was the percentage of kids taken by force to SW?

Have you heard of Outward Bound?  Do you know they do NOT take kids brought to them by abductors for hire?

Gee, wonder why?  Could it be they have more respect for Mother Nature than to exploit it like these other programs do?

Pass the lentils, please?

[dougm]

I was taken involuntarily in the middle of the night. I'm not sure as to how my parents were referred to SW. By the sounds of it, most other kids were either escourted against their will or they were duped into going. As for "abductors for hire" I was escourted by a family friend. Still have no idea why you believe the profit motive is the main reason behind this, do you know how much insurance these places require?

[Anonymous]

Who is the CEO, you can probably look up his salary on Hoovers. Or maybe Guidestar if its a "nonprofit."

I honestly don't think it's mostly the money but I do bet they make a lot more than most counselors. I think though that they truly believe that they know something that NEEDS to be passed on to others. That's really the heart of what I see as the problem with them. They think they are the only and best solution. That's just not true or ethical for these people to act like. They should have a very small and well defined population and stick to that, and take that very seriously....assuming that their approach has any merit at all, which I am not really sure of. But...there are PLENTY of other types of programs out there that do not use these methods and are at least if not more successful than this. And taking kids by force...I think that speaks for itself.

[Anonymous]

Unless its really a severe case where their lives are in danger or something.

[Anonymous]

Who's motivation isn't money when starting a business? These are not non-profits here people, they are in business for ONE reason-- to make money. To say otherwise really shows your ignorance.

Do you realize ANYONE, any one of us who posts on this board could go and start a wilderness program? A residential teen program? In MANY states.

Maybe I should start one....?

My motivation is money! And I already know how I can dupe parents, and manipulate kids... what a great business idea.

[Anonymous]

PLUS-- I can get people to defend my program for free! Would you defend my program ? It sounds like some of the program trolls will defend any program, so I hope you will help me sell my program. Thanks in advance, we don't want any ex-students coming by and ruining the gravy train. Remember, you can't believe what they say.. um.. they are drug addits- yeah..

[Anonymous]

I had a kid in a program, not happy to go at all, doing great now several years down the road.  

As parents, part of the program was showing us how we had been part of the problems our kid developed, not in a blaming way or an accusing way--because kids make choices too--but to show us how to be better parents and better human being

I'll say straight out that we apologized to our kid many times for the part we played in setting up the whole tragedy to happen.  But it's  also true that our relationship is stronger than it ever was and the apologies have gone both ways

I can honestly say that our kid has forgiven us completely for our inadequacies and we can offer complete forgiveness also And I don't think we could have done this without the parent training part of the program which was so much more than any family counseling that I've ever heard of

To Doug: if it's something that's not too personal for you to discuss how did you reconcile with your parents and what part if any did parent education play in the program you've described

[Anonymous]

About the money issue--
I just believe that these types of people often times truly believe they know "the answer." They feel so strongly about it they think they are obligated to spread it to as many people as possible. It's that belief that makes them so extreme and so willing to use extreme methods to change kids, even if it means doing what most others would call abuse. I don't believe they see it that way. Do they want to make money? Of course. I bet they make a lot of money. My guess would be based on some other places I've looked at....maybe $70 or $80,000. That's a LOT more than your average counselor. But I think they believe they deserve that too.

About the parent who apologized to their son...that is great if you were in a program that didn't blame everything on the kid. That is exactly what I think needs to be done...see who has done what. I also believe residential therapy should be a very last resort, and that if they do things like tell you they are your only hope and restrict communication between you and your child, I would NEVER trust such a place. Regardless of anything else.

[Anonymous]

Re: Insurance

That's the cost of doing business and quite frankly, explains in part why these places can cost upwards of $300-400 a day.  

Let's do the math (using *conservative* numbers)

$300 x 30 days (per kid) = $9,000

9k x 9 kids = $81,000 a month

$81k x 12 months = $972,000 a year

Naw, it's not the money.

Greed is Good.

 :silly:

[Deborah]

Doug,
You can find the Oregon Regulations for Wilderness here:
http://www.wilderness-programs.org/Regu ... Oregon.htm

Compared to other states I?ve read (Utah, Ga, Tx) they are particularly lame. Leaves a lot of decisions and policies to the program owner. On many issues, which the state would normally dictate, it has been left to the program to ?create and implement? its own policies.

FOOD:
The narrator on BC said the teens ?must? consume 1800 calories- used as an excuse to justify forcing the kid to eat oat mush until he puked.  USDA and Oregon Regs state 3,000 given their level of physical exertion and cold weather. That means you provide a minimum of 3,000 calories and have extra on hand. It would not allow for ?rationing? to denying food as punishment.

Based on the ?menu? you provided: 2c dry oats, 1c dry milk, raisins, 2c granola, 1c rice, 1c lentils-  we?re talking 1300 calories, at best.  A long way from 3,000. Not even half of what?s recommended.

And WHO eats plain, dry oats? Followed by a quart of water? That?s going to expand in the gut. It certainly will give one a sense of fullness, and could cause anyone to puke.

You mentioned that lunch was optional. If so, then why force feed them 2c dry oats and a quart of water at breakfast?  And why force them to eat all they prepare? Especially early on. I?m sure they have no idea that the rice, oats and lentils are going to double or triple in volume after cooked. What kind of spice made you vomit?  FYI, it would never be considered appropriate to force children to eat in any child caring institution or situation, and certainly inappropriate to take away any meal as punishment, as you say was the case with lunch. How could they begin to consider taking away any meal when they as so far below the caloric recommendations to begin with?

I don?t think you understand how unconscionable this ?treatment? is.  And unnecessary. This would not fly anywhere but a program.  It flies because the owners of the programs in Oregon had a hand in the creation of the regulations.  
Imagine this:  a group of daycare owners dictating to the state the rules they will be subject to. Ha! Would never happen. And a daycare owner would be out of business if s/he did any of these things.
You can teach teens how to ?take care of themselves?, even in the wilderness, without going to such austere and extreme measures. There is another MO operating here- deprivation/ submission.

And what if you didn?t find firewood? How would you prepare rice/lentils and/or stay warm at night?

Hygiene:  You wash in the same cup you eat from? Same rag everyday?
And clean your cup after eating, with mud? Nowhere else would this be allowed.
What provisions were there for wash your hands after visiting the latrine?

Packs: You weighted 115# and carried an 80# pack? They aren?t supposed to exceed 30% of the participant?s weight (38# in your case). Plus water jugs- 10-20#? Plus rocks for cussing?

I hope someone in Oregon who can act on the information you provided, and the BC series, is paying attention.