Typical Day at Sagewalk

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-26 20:10:00, Anonymous wrote:

""I saw on national TV...", this sums up Deborah.



"It can take years to acclimate to a different  climate." Oh grow up----you relentlessly silly woman---people---especially young people---are a lot more resilient than you try to make them out to be--



And here you are, apparently worried about sanitary napkins that might be found by predators...and choking on uncooked lentils for God's sake...I think the camp people can handle all this City Girl



News flash, Deborah: these kids in the Brat Camp programs---nd the various othe programs you try to drum up complaints against---are NOT YOUR CHILDREN



Their own parents will make the determination of what is needed in their lives. It's not your business--so get a hobby or something to fill your days



Seems to me that this is all about avoiding how badly you managed the upbringing of your own children---by concentrating in things outside of that central issue(yeah I hear that you didn't want your kids in program--but why did your husband--and/or the courts---put them there: you obviously hadn't done a stellar job in bringing them up to be productive citizens)



These programs are doing good---leave them alone---what good are you doing with your endless, detailed clueless posts that transparently try to portray evil and danger where there is really possibility and potential???







"

Anon, honestly ... Deborah makes so very good points.  Try looking at it from the perspective of someone who is OPEN MINDED to learning something new.

Kids come in different sizes, different shapes.  These one-size-fits-all therapy in the woods camps are like cattle drives.

Round em up, march em out, feed and water them, put em to bed, etc.

Wilderness therapy is not the magic bullet.  Parents should take their own kids camping, spend time and money BONDING with their own kids instead of paying for their kids to bond with some lazy a** camp counselor with an attitude problem of his own.

 :silly:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-26 20:39:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"I was not going to respond to this thread as I have not seen anything worth responding to up till just recently.



I believe that wilderness therapy can be very benificial in certian situations. However, the very crux of the matter being that short term wilderness programs can not help a kid effect long term changes. How can you expect a kid to change his behaviors that he has spent an entire lifetime learning?



Further, what good is eating out of a cup going to do a kid who is Bipolar? Not a whole lot as far as I can tell.



What needs to be remembered is that a wilderness program is the first step in a long ladder for a great many of these kids. Run properly I think a wilderness program could be a good experience for just about any kid. That is what I like so much about the Outward bound programs. They are more focused on improving character than actually treating specific issues. In outward bound its about toughening up a bit, rather than learning how to deal with being bipolar though wood bow drilling or what not.



A few weeks out in the woods would have worked wonders for my lazy ass when I was a teenager. Now focusing specifically on these programs that are promising the moon, while delivering charred oatmeal. I hate to say it they are about the dollars. Nothing more nothing less. Short term camping is a good thing for kids, but a terrible place to address treatment issues like depression, and the rest of the alphabet soup family of neurological disorders.



Full well knowing this I would happily send my kid to some place like Outward bound for the experience of backpacking, and living in the woods. I would not send them their for treatment. If I had a child with that sort of disorder the wilderness aspect would only be the first step of the process.



Upon return I would have the rest of his/her treatment in place. In no way would that immediately involve an out of home placement. I would not dismiss it as an option, but it would never be my first choice.



"

Well said!  Makes a lot of sense!
 :nworthy:

[AtomicAnt]

I forgot about the NIH study. It was related to violence, so I will be attacked for it, but I think the same logic applies to any poorly behaved teen.
 
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-26 21:07:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

"I don't think your tone is constructive.



 I have read dozens of articles on this subject and consulted with friends and family. My sister has a PHD in adolecsent psycology, my wife is a board certified psychiatrist. My wife has worked in drug and alcohol rehabilitation programs, in prisons, and with the homeless. She pointed out the success ratios these programs claim are insane. If they use follow-up at all, they use unreliable self surveys. A kid is not going to risk going back by telling the company that runs his program that he has fallen back into his old habits.



Both my wife and sister informed me about something called 'situational adaptation.' It is a problem in almost all rehabilition programs. It is basically similar to Stockholm Syndrome. The patient in the rehab program will genuinely change their psycology to reduce the negative stresses the programs place on them. They are not faking it, and so appear to be helped. but when the program is over, the adopted behavour doesn't stick. Thus coercive programs usually don't work. A person has to want to change. They cannot be forced.



I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but there are just too many bad stories out there to ignore.



To me it is simply unconscionable to place a child in a situation where they are isolated and in the hands of strangers. If abuse does occur, they have no recourse and no one will believe them. I would not let my children go to SW anymore than I would let them sleep in Michael Jackson's bed. I don't care if he was aquitted, it just ain't right.



The program I attended was called simply Wildnerness Challenge. I don't know much of the details because I never looked into it, but it was not a for profit affair. It was sponsored by the school district. The director was reputed to be a survivalist expert who had trekked to the N. Pole. The groups were chaperoned, yup, along with our guides/counselors we had chaperons. In my group, our chaperons included my eighth grade english teacher and the principal to the school where I attended sixth grade. I had adults I knew and trusted with me.



The program was offered through the high school. I don't know how all the kids were recruited. I was convinced to go by a friendly 'intervention' of kids and teachers I knew. They talked me into it. It was only after the program that I was informed by one of the kids that they had been instructed not to let me leave the room until I agreed. That stung a bit.



Of the eight kids in my group, three of them were my classmates. The program was essentially, community based. I remember how it made me feel good to know these people all cared about me.



Oh, I was just told to add the following:



These for profit programs don't find fault with the parents because they want their money. Therefore, they place all the blame on the kids. This allows the parents to feel less guilty by shipping the problem child away instead of dealing with him/her as a family. The child may change, but is returned to an unchanged family and any gains will be either reversed, or suppressed due to the child's new found fear. These repressed problems will come out with a vengeance once the child becomes an adult and moves out."

Excellent!

What do you think is the biggest problem with BRAT CAMP?  Personally, I don't like the "labeling" of the teens and resent SW and the producers for allowing this to occur.  If these kids are truly troubled, why are they being exploited and ridiculed with these asinine labels?

Shame on the parents, too.  They are the ones who signed away the rights of their own children.

[AtomicAnt]

Treatment options for adolescents with depression are similar to those for depressed adults, and include psychotherapy and antidepressant medications (see major depression for a review of treatments and self-care). However, one major antidepressant, Paxil, now has a warning NOT to be given to children under 18.

Family therapy may be helpful if family conflict is contributing to the depression. Support from family or teachers to help with school problems may also be needed. Occasionally, hospitalization in a psychiatric unit may be required for individuals with severe depression, or if they are at risk of suicide.

Because of the behavior problems that often co-exist with adolescent depression, many parents are tempted to utilize punitive solutions like "boot camps", "wilderness programs", or "emotional growth schools."

These programs frequently utilize non-professional staff and use confrontational therapies and harsh punishments. There is no scientific evidence which supports use of these programs. In fact, there is a growing body of research which suggests that they can actually harm teens, particularly sensitive teens with depression.

Depressed teens who act out may also become involved with the criminal justice system. Parents are often advised not to intervene, but to "let them experience consequences."

Unfortunately, this can also harm teens through exposure to more deviant peers and reduction in educational opportunities. A better solution is to get the best possible legal advice and search for treatment on your own, which gives parents more control over techniques used and options.

Though a large percentage of teens in the criminal justice system have mental disorders like depression, few juvenile prisons, "boot camps" or other "alternative to prison" programs provide adequate treatment.

[Nihilanthic]

TSW - the problem is that people really are just... ignorant about this topic (or any at all it seems) and that you can just call anything 'therapeutic' and people just buy into it!

I guess its some mix of new-agey bullshit and the "good 'ole" mentality of suffering being "good for 'em" that they use to hook people into sending their kids off. People seem to like the idea of punishment despite the fact that its ineffective at best and detremential at worst. That "they deserve it" justifies this even when you face up to the fact that its not therapeutic and they do actually "need help" in the minds of many.

That, and people think a breakdown is a 'break through' and psychological regressions and extreme emotional outbursts are 'good' somehow. Its not 'good for them' or a 'growth experience' anymore than surviving a rape or torture or severe injury is (sure, if you survive you've grown, but they might very well break your spirit... and theres no reason to go around tormenting people so they 'grow', now is there?) but it DOES make them suggestable to new ideas. Its brainwashing in a nutshell, just more subtle and with an air of indian this and that and new-agey psycho-bullshit thrown all over it and stupid parents who just believe.

Hell, I heard someone talking about how the "wilderness effect" on her kid wore off on some forum... HELLO!??!?! What year is it, and what time period does that kind of stupid mentality belong in? And I also dont get why people get shipped off to lockin programs after going through the hiking programs... WTF is the reason for that? Neither works so double up? I know the ulterior motive is just a money train that they don't let the kids off of for a long time - but how do they justify it to the parents?

*sigh* ultimately there is no reasoning with them, if theyve been sucked in few dare admit the mistake. One can only hope more people come out and this eventually is put to its end for good... but given the current politial and cultural situation, It might be a long time.

America when will you be angelic
When will you take off your clothes....
America after all it is you and I who are perfect
Not the next world.
--Allen Ginsberg

[Anonymous]

I honestly think most people who watch the show are horrified. Otherwise why would the ratings be so high? (fear factor, law and order SVU, extreme makeover, etc...) The show will get old fast. I'm already bored with it. How many weeks can you string out standard teenager drama?

[Anonymous]

Not to mention the turd circle.  :roll: How stupid can it get?

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-27 11:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I honestly think most people who watch the show are horrified. Otherwise why would the ratings be so high? (fear factor, law and order SVU, extreme makeover, etc...) The show will get old fast. I'm already bored with it. How many weeks can you string out standard teenager drama?



"

My family watches that crap. I can't stand it, myself. I don't mind the physical challenges. Some of those are rather cool. But I can't stand watching people eat disgusting crap and don't really understand why anyone would either do it (even for a chance at $50k), far less why anyone would want to watch it.

But there's a major difference here, and I wonder if most viewers even consider this. All of the participants in those other shows are voluntary. It's their choice to participate, for watever reasons. They can walk away at any time (though I'm sure there are contract stipulations to discourage it) These kids are literally kidnapped out of their beds at night or tricked by their own parents into going. There's no practical chance at escape. And they (shit bird and her buddies) intentionally push them past the point of reason on a regular basis to where they'll risk life and limb to attempt it anyway.

The whole spectacle reminds me very much of the afternoon when ATF set fire to the Waco complex. People in my office cheered like the home team just scored a touch down. I'm thoroughly disgusted w/ the network and their audience.

Why should we take advice on sex from the Pope? If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Anonymous]

I've made an attempt to respond every post directed at me or reply to one of my posts. However, I am finding more and more difficult to address everything, especially a lot of generalizations, misconceptions, and flatout mistruths presented on this forum.

But the whet the appetite of some of the nay-sayers on this forum, I will express some grievences I do have...

-I know Brat Camp is exploitation, if they were going to make a show of this, it should've been at least voluntary. It sucks to have these kids privacy violated, but you must understand the extremely lucratrive incentive to have 15k therapy program paid for in full.

-Based on what I saw on the intro to BC, Derek should not have been sent to SW. I'm fairly sure that his entire story was not told but if it's just him not taking his medication thats making him act out or whatever, then he just needs to be convinced to take his medication. I'm fairly sure that theres more to the story, however.

-Although I was required to take a physical prior to attending SageWalk, they should've done bloodwork since Diabetes is one of the conditions that prevent enrollment. I think that all students should be tested for Diabetes and Epilepsy.

Despite these, I still stand that SW is a good program. I have no freakin' clue as to why everyone thinks that all the kids are all normal kids and the parents are all abusive and evil, and then one day, they write a check, the kid is sent away and then the parents sit back at home, sip cocktails and laugh, then 45 days later, their children come out as slave robots. SW is never the first option, I read all the material that SW sent my parents (they have archived every single thing that has pertained to SW or any other treatment and circumstances of my behavior), it's no cakewalk for the parents either. They're told that they need to change their ways as well, and they have to work on that as well. It's not just a matter of writing a check either. There is a very lengthy application process.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-27 18:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I've made an attempt to respond every post directed at me or reply to one of my posts. However, I am finding more and more difficult to address everything, especially a lot of generalizations, misconceptions, and flatout mistruths presented on this forum.



But the whet the appetite of some of the nay-sayers on this forum, I will express some grievences I do have...



-I know Brat Camp is exploitation, if they were going to make a show of this, it should've been at least voluntary. It sucks to have these kids privacy violated, but you must understand the extremely lucratrive incentive to have 15k therapy program paid for in full.



-Based on what I saw on the intro to BC, Derek should not have been sent to SW. I'm fairly sure that his entire story was not told but if it's just him not taking his medication thats making him act out or whatever, then he just needs to be convinced to take his medication. I'm fairly sure that theres more to the story, however.



-Although I was required to take a physical prior to attending SageWalk, they should've done bloodwork since Diabetes is one of the conditions that prevent enrollment. I think that all students should be tested for Diabetes and Epilepsy.



Despite these, I still stand that SW is a good program. I have no freakin' clue as to why everyone thinks that all the kids are all normal kids and the parents are all abusive and evil, and then one day, they write a check, the kid is sent away and then the parents sit back at home, sip cocktails and laugh, then 45 days later, their children come out as slave robots. SW is never the first option, I read all the material that SW sent my parents (they have archived every single thing that has pertained to SW or any other treatment and circumstances of my behavior), it's no cakewalk for the parents either. They're told that they need to change their ways as well, and they have to work on that as well. It's not just a matter of writing a check either. There is a very lengthy application process.



"

Well alrighty, now we are getting somewhere.

Personally?  I think you would have liked Outward Bound (if you were accepted) because you appear to be someone who truly believes you benefited from the challenge of wilderness survival.

The points you made are all valid and serve to underscore why nobody thinks the Wilderness Therapy industry is about helping kids... it's about making money.  Lots of MONEY.  From the blood, sweat and tears of children.

Yeah, these teen helpers are heroes, allright.

NOT!

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-27 18:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Despite these, I still stand that SW is a good program. I have no freakin' clue as to why everyone thinks that all the kids are all normal kids and the parents are all abusive and evil, and then one day, they write a check, the kid is sent away and then the parents sit back at home, sip cocktails and laugh, then 45 days later, their children come out as slave robots. SW is never the first option, I read all the material that SW sent my parents (they have archived every single thing that has pertained to SW or any other treatment and circumstances of my behavior), it's no cakewalk for the parents either. They're told that they need to change their ways as well, and they have to work on that as well. It's not just a matter of writing a check either. There is a very lengthy application process.



"

Well I think you're generalizing that everyone on here thinks exactly the same thing. I happen to think that the kids do have problems, but that a lot of it probably stems from the family dynamics at home. Check out some of the family therapy options and their theories, such as systems family therapy, and you will see what I am talking about. These kids just aren't severe enough from what I've seen to warrant such an extreme approach, especially since the problem to me appears to be the family as a whole. They should be in some good family therapy at home, not in a residential type wilderness therapy program. These programs don't make any sense to me in any way, teaching kids the value of submission and agreeing with others is the only thing I see happening here. This may cause everyone to start getting along, sure, the kids may not be as angry, sure....but is that what is really best for them and their family? Call up a family therapist in your area and ask them what they think about this nonsense. I bet they will think it's all nonsense.

Here are a couple of commonly accepted and USED family therapy theories:

Attachment theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

Systems Family Therapy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_systems_therapy

[Anonymous]

I think they should send all the kids to Maui for a month and put the parent(s)in SW.

[Anonymous]

There is a very lengthy application process.

So there is a long application form to fill in as well!  Those poor parents.  The things they have to do for their children.  My heart bleads.

[Antigen]

This is really all about changing definitions; manipulating language. Weakness is strength, submission is character. Far as I can tell, Isaiah's big problem is that he stubornly persists in defending himself from the dumb jocks. We can't have that, can we? And Nick? Well Nick made me think of someone I knew briefely. His rents sent him to Outward Bound. He loved it. When he got home, they went right on w/ their overt child abuse (I won't go into details here, but trust me, it was not borderline stuff) So he took his newfound independence and self reliance and he rebelled. So they sent him to Straight. He sucked it up long enough to get onto 3rd phase and then used his wilderness survival skills to live pretty much in the woods for a couple of years till he came of age.

Dude's an investment banker these days. Put himself through school selling pot and coke in Philly.

In the long run, it worked out pretty well for the guy. But he's a tough guy. I doubt seriously that the rents got what they thought they were paying for or that this particular guy would have fared any differently no matter what they did or didn't do.

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor