Author Topic: Unusually Resistant Kids, Or Softer Program  (Read 10789 times)

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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2005, 08:00:00 PM »
There are a many, many beneficial things for kids, that don't include the unnecessary risk of death, abuse, torture, and humiliation.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2005, 08:26:00 PM »
The potential for erring on the side of caution being abused should not enter the equation.

You must understand that many of the kids who died needlessly were seen my medical personnel and/or were hiking with an EMT, one in particular, who ignored her medical training and used the program method of ?flushing out fakers?. This woman knew the signs of heat exhaustion, yet deferred to the program owner?s direction.

My son was left alone, for his ?solo?, with no water, no light, no food, no protection from the elements; with only a black trash bag to lie on and a pancho to cover his head; in an area where he had already had a close encounter with a rattlesnake. He was vomiting frequently all night. He screamed for assistance. No one was in ear shot- all tucked into their nice warm beds at base camp. He was 14. This was cruel, abusive, and neglectful. He could?ve died alone in the woods that night. I feel very fortunate. My neighbor?s son, Ian August, wasn?t so fortunate. He died. I had shared the reality with his mother. She sent him anyway. I?m sure she felt, like most parents, that it wouldn?t happen to her kid. Well it did. And any number of tragedies could?ve happened to you too.

Yeh, they could?ve happened at home, but not under the guise of therapy.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2005, 08:43:00 PM »
Wilderness therapy, by it's very nature, is inherently risky but it appears most kids aren't killed because of Mother Nature ... they are killed because of human error, greed and willful indifference to their health and safety.

Consider the tragic case of the boy who died at Catherine Freer after a tree branch covered with snow fell on him while he was sleeping?

Who is to blame?

Mother Nature or human error?  

Barbe
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2005, 08:43:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-07-24 16:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-07-24 16:51:00, dougm wrote:


"Okay, I read the court thing, and I will be honest, I was appalled. The setup hasn't changed with sleeping bags, tarps, clothes, food etc. but never once when I was at Sagewalk were we forced to eat stuff other than what was issued to us, and we didn't consume anything "natural" other than steeping some leaves we found and making tea (wasn't great in retrospect, but it was quite a welcome treat at the time) nor were we made to wade in water  (what the hell were the counselors thinking???). I need to say that Sagewalk is much different and in no way did I ever experience any of the abuse that he did. However, I still stand by my conviction that wilderness therapy can be quite beneficial for most kids."




Here's a novel idea. Send the parents to a wilderness therapy camp and put them through the exact same regimen ... only instead of reading letters written by their bratty kids, they would be the ones writing letters to their children apologizing for being lousy parents and begging them for their forgiveness.



I can see it now ... the kids coming to pick up their new and improved parents ... riding off into the sunset singing Kumbaya.



 :silly:



"


That's just asinine, not all parents who send their kids to these programs are bad. My parents did everything they could to help me, and quite frankly, you're generalization of the parents of these kids is an insult.  One kid that was there was because he was physically abusing his mother. I appreciate the links that have been sent to me about genuine abuses by these programs, but making blanket statements do nothing more than make you look silly.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2005, 09:18:00 PM »
An experienced camper doesn't set up his tent under tree limbs that are heavy with snow.
London presented Nature as the enemy. Totally neglecting the ignorance of human's who think they are the masters of the universe and enter that domain ill-prepared. You go with irreverance and ill prepared and you might not return. It's one thing if an adult wants to take those risks, quiet another for an ignorant adult to put a child at risk. A child that's not their own, no less.

Wonder if CF has 'retrained' (educated) their staff on this matter.

The guys who put my son out were Mtn Rangers/Wilderness First Responders and ex-military. None of that training would have saved my son if he'd had appendicitis that night.
Credentials are not security, particularly when the sadistic personality of staff over-rides common sense.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2005, 09:36:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-07-24 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-07-24 16:57:00, Anonymous wrote:


"
Quote


On 2005-07-24 16:51:00, dougm wrote:



"Okay, I read the court thing, and I will be honest, I was appalled. The setup hasn't changed with sleeping bags, tarps, clothes, food etc. but never once when I was at Sagewalk were we forced to eat stuff other than what was issued to us, and we didn't consume anything "natural" other than steeping some leaves we found and making tea (wasn't great in retrospect, but it was quite a welcome treat at the time) nor were we made to wade in water  (what the hell were the counselors thinking???). I need to say that Sagewalk is much different and in no way did I ever experience any of the abuse that he did. However, I still stand by my conviction that wilderness therapy can be quite beneficial for most kids."







Here's a novel idea. Send the parents to a wilderness therapy camp and put them through the exact same regimen ... only instead of reading letters written by their bratty kids, they would be the ones writing letters to their children apologizing for being lousy parents and begging them for their forgiveness.





I can see it now ... the kids coming to pick up their new and improved parents ... riding off into the sunset singing Kumbaya.





 :silly:





"




That's just asinine, not all parents who send their kids to these programs are bad. My parents did everything they could to help me, and quite frankly, you're generalization of the parents of these kids is an insult.  One kid that was there was because he was physically abusing his mother. I appreciate the links that have been sent to me about genuine abuses by these programs, but making blanket statements do nothing more than make you look silly."


Hello?  Did you not hear the parent whining about the teenager spending money he gave her on drugs?

Guess it never occured to the "parent" that for starters he should stop giving the kid money.

David Van Blarigan (the kid sent to Tranquility Bay back in 1998) had no criminal record.  Didn't smoke, do drugs, or skip school.

What he did do is call his younger brother a "butthead", refuse to go to his parent's fundamentalist church, and .... gasp ... sprayed his mother with a hose.

See archives for TIME magazine for info on David Van Blarigan.

IS THIS A CAMP OR JAIL?

Doug .... parents can and do send their kids to programs for ALL THE WRONG REASONS ... but none so wrong as to show their kid who's boss.  It's all about control .... not helping kids.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2005, 09:37:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-07-24 18:18:00, Deborah wrote:

"

An experienced camper doesn't set up his tent under tree limbs that are heavy with snow.

London presented Nature as the enemy. Totally neglecting the ignorance of human's who think they are the masters of the universe and enter that domain ill-prepared. You go with irreverance and ill prepared and you might not return. It's one thing if an adult wants to take those risks, quiet another for an ignorant adult to put a child at risk. A child that's not their own, no less.



Wonder if CF has 'retrained' (educated) their staff on this matter.



The guys who put my son out were Mtn Rangers/Wilderness First Responders and ex-military. None of that training would have saved my son if he'd had appendicitis that night.

Credentials are not security, particularly when the sadistic personality of staff over-rides common sense.



"


I'm sorry but I couldn't understand that post for the most part...as for referring to the staff as sadistic is yet again another generalization. I enjoyed the company of *most* of the staff there, although there were a few turds (in that they were a little more strict, but not cruel). Not because they "brainwashed" me, but because they are human beings as well.
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Offline dougm

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« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2005, 09:50:00 PM »
Once again, I will reiterate...wilderness therapy isn't for everyone. I know the parents aren't perfect, and that's why during the kid's stay at SageWalk, the parents also go to therapy. As for kids being sent because of religious reasons, that disgusts me because I am an atheist myself, I couldn't imagine my parents being that, for lack of a better word, dumb. But regardless of sending a kid to wilderness therapy for the wrong reasons, that doesn't detract from the fact that for some kids, wilderness therapy is the right treatment.

And I still don't understand why everyone solely blames the parents. Even assuming that the parents are bad parents (which isn't true in all cases like everyone on here seems to believe), does that excuse the child for partaking in bad behaviors?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2005, 09:51:00 PM »
Deb .. please check your PM's.

Barbe
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2005, 01:30:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-07-24 18:50:00, dougm wrote:

And I still don't understand why everyone solely blames the parents.


Because the parents are the ones who make the call, negotiate the deal, write the checks and then follow instructions to help demoralize their kids.

On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2005, 01:31:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-07-24 18:50:00, dougm wrote:

"Once again, I will reiterate...wilderness therapy isn't for everyone. I know the parents aren't perfect, and that's why during the kid's stay at SageWalk, the parents also go to therapy. As for kids being sent because of religious reasons, that disgusts me because I am an atheist myself, I couldn't imagine my parents being that, for lack of a better word, dumb. But regardless of sending a kid to wilderness therapy for the wrong reasons, that doesn't detract from the fact that for some kids, wilderness therapy is the right treatment.



And I still don't understand why everyone solely blames the parents. Even assuming that the parents are bad parents (which isn't true in all cases like everyone on here seems to believe), does that excuse the child for partaking in bad behaviors?"


Please define bad behaviors. What if the child is acting out because they were abused? What if it's emotional abuse at home? Do they ever get kids and say, oh actually this particular problem isnt' your fault, this is more of your parent's fault. You should go home now. I doubt it, in fact, I bet that NEVER happens. That is a red flag that what is going on there isn't therapeutic at all, they aren't looking at the SPECIFIC cases to see what's needed. You admit it's not for everyone. Well shouldn't the camp be the ones admitting that, not you? They are the supposed professionals that these families turn to for help. Shouldn't they be telling the families what all their options are and refusing to admit certain kids who wouldn't benefit? They don't do that because they are egomaniacs and believe they know "the answer." That is the last type of person that should be a counselor, and the last type of person I would want working with KIDS of all people.

Me, I don't solely blame the parents, I also blame the facility. The kids are, lets not forget, kids. If the parents would follow the same lesson that's being taught to the kids, they would stop blaming them and sending them off to camps in the first place. Maybe that's why kids act out to begin with. But even the kids with severe behavior problems, I just don't see how teaching them that everything is always their fault and never anybody else's is going to benefit them. Yeah, they may stop being angry, but they will be essentially defenseless in the world, unable to see what their needs are and unable to see when they are being mistreated. How can we take proper emotional care of ourselves if we believe that every single thing that happens to us is our fault? Isn't this low-self esteem? The lesson they kept talking about in the camp when they were hiking -- that nobody will be there to help you--- that is sickening. What could be sadder than that? Plus it's all contrived. The only reason they have to do that hike by themselves is because the camp is making them do it alone and carry all that shit so they can't even help each other out. Whatever. These insane egomaniacs need to stop working with kids.
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Offline bandit1978

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« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2005, 01:54:00 PM »
The parents have a responsibility to thoroughly investigate any program they send their kids to.  This includes traveling to the place and touring the ENTIRE facility, meeting the staff and students, reading the student rulebook, asking specific questions, and doing a thorough backround check.  

If a kid ends up in an abusive facility, yes, of course it's the parents fault...entirely.  It's their responsibility to remain grounded and be sure they are not being bamboozled by these program people.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2005, 02:01:00 PM »
Thank you, Bandit. There is no excuse for parents not to know.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2005, 02:04:00 PM »
To Megan--
I agree totally with you, and also disagree, if you know what I mean. I totally agree that it is actually the parent's full responsibilty to investigate these places and use...I don't know...a little common sense in picking out a place for their child. If they don't do that, I question that the parent maybe isn't as responsible as is needed to take proper care of a child. I also, and not to contradict that, but I also think the government has a responsibility to regulate these places and make sure they are not abusing kids. Because there are parents out there who are going to make innappropriate decisions, the government should have safeguards set up to catch this sort of stuff. I think sometimes people just assume that they are being properly regulated and that no abuse is going on in an open (and apparently legal) facility like this. I also think the licensing boards are responsible...they are the ones supposedly checking the quality of the professional services offered and the training they obtain. And the government is in many instances relying on their judgement to see if they are operating properly ie if they have a license.

We all grow up being taught that the police are your friends, who do you call if you need help? The police. What do you do if you need help with emotional problems...why you see a "professional." But what gets left out of this equation unfortunately is that all professionals etc. are not created equally.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2005, 03:02:00 PM »
Let's not forget the ed cons and the parent owned and operated referral agencies who make a living filling up these programs.

What a racket this is! Parents helping other parents place their kid in a "TROUBLED" program?  One that PAYS them a finder's fee?  

Shame on them! Heaven forbid they go out and get a real job.  One that does not involve preying on desperate parents and their children.

Totally sick!

:flame:
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