If they only knew....

[BuzzKill]

//Thanks, but I meant the initial sales pitch. What did they offer you to make you think it was worth the money and other commitments involved in shipping your son to them? //

Oh sorry - I (as you could tell) thought you meant the pitch for the seminars.

Keep in mind, the sales reps at Teen help are very good at ferreting out what it is a parent is looking for and promising just that.

I was sold an advanced and progressive boarding school, with a very effective drug rehab component.
I was told they could guarantee a high grade point average helping with college admission b/c if the student earned less than a B they took the class again. However, as the classes were small and individuals got plenty of attention, they learned the material well and rapidly.
I forget what percentage I was quoted as far as "success" - but it was way up there.
Now, I assumed I was getting a certain amount of spiel. I figured the actual percentage of kids who stayed off the drugs would be less - even a lot less - but even so - it seemed far better than doing nothing.
"The Program" was described as a points and levels system. The only consequences related to me were the loss of points and levels.
The seminars were talked about as important, but they didn't go into any detail.
In my head, to myself, I figured it would help a lot to just get him out of the neighborhood; and somewhere interesting enough to help him think about something besides getting high. I thought he would have a great time.
Yes, I know - I know - I have often lamented my ignorance. I had no clue such places existed. Neither did any of the professionals I consulted for an opinion on this program.
I thought it would be very healing and would help him to once again value personal achievement and health and so on.
I wasn't really counting on these life changing seminars; even as I at first thought I understood them to be.
I was counting on time away from the drugs and the beauty of the place. I was told the kids got to go to the beach and to go on hikes and nature walks. I actually sent him a pair of hiking boots. Never saw them again. For me - Costa Rica was a real selling point. I thought of it as a wonderful opportunity for him. I thought the change of environment, and the great beauty of the place; the culture and people  - to all be very positive things, that would help him expand his horizons - see that life with a sober mind could be fun and interesting and exciting.
When it came to some of the rules - I wasn't told about most of them. I was told about the no calls home until level three - but I was also told this would just be a matter of a couple or three weeks. I wasn't seriously upset with that.  I thought it was intended to give the kids a chance to adjust and get over the anger of being taken out of the neighborhood and flown to a rain forest.
I figured after a couple weeks he'd be getting his feet under him and the conversation would be far more productive. It was on the BBS that I figured out the time frame was a farce; and it was my first real bright red flag.
His letters home also got my concerns up - despite all the warnings about how he'd try to manipulate his way back to the neighborhood and the drugs.
But I digress.
I hope this answers your question. I spent 4 or 5 months talking to Teen Help and others before I finely decided to send him - so there were many conversations and I am sure some of the "selling points" have slipped my mind.

[BuzzKill]

// no guarantees.//
?
I was told (and I forgot this part) this program was the only one With a guarantee.

You get out what you put into it - Yeah I recall that - but as I recall, it had to do with the seminars. But of corse, it could be applied to the parents program in many ways. Much like you get what you pay for, huh? Keep paying and you'll keep getting and eventually, after your fully baked, we can call you/your kid a success.

[Antigen]

Buzz, what did you think was the value to the kids of those points and levels? What did you imagine would be the incentive to totally change their way of thinking and behavior in order to acquire and keep those levels and points?

Fresh beauty opens one's eyes wherever it is really seen, but the very abundance and completeness of the common beauty that besets our steps prevents its being absorbed and appreciated. It is a good thing, therefore, to make short excursions now and then to the bottom of the sea among dulse and coral, or up among the clouds on mountain-tops, or in balloons, or even to creep like worms into dark holes and caverns underground, not only to learn something of what is going on in those out-of-the-way places, but to see better what the sun sees on our return to common everyday beauty.
-- John Muir

[BuzzKill]

Well, I personally didn't place much value in them. Nor did I object to them.
I thought such a system might help some kids to make the connection between effort and achievement - and with actions and consequences.
I personally felt my son already knew all this. Prior to the accelerated drug use, he had shown an uncommon degree of good sense and maturity. I really thought, once he was away from the neighborhood and sobered up, the good sense would return.
I felt if I could keep him away from all this long enough, the habit aspect of the abuse could be broken; and there'd be a good chance he wouldn't relapse into heavy use. But while he was away - I didn't want him to fall behind in school; so the educational aspect was important to me.
I viewed the points and levels as a way to maintain a kind of structure and a way to gage a person's progress - not unlike grades in school.
I had no intention of worrying over much about them until I realized how all important they actually were, and how easily and arbitrarily they could be lost.
With the passing of a little time, I became alarmed at the great distress generated by the loss of points. It should not have been That great a concern for these kids. Obviously, you wanted a kid to try not to loose any - but it should not seem like a devastating disaster if they did. That's very stressful - and that kind of stress is bad for people.
I now feel very differently about the points and levels - but early on - I was pretty neutral.
I didn't consider them an important aspect of what I hoped for - But I had no notion they could be used for evil.

[Anonymous]

Just checking in to see if Antigen had an answer to my question.  

Buzz -  do you keep all your rantings in a notebook?  Did you or didn't you go to Discovery?  

Again Angigen, What does the program promise that is impossible, or what do they promise at all?  You made the statement, why ask Buzz who is notably addicted to her own delusions?

Nihilanthic = with all respect intended:  get over yourself.  Until you actually have experience and not a fear from what you read, you have no credibility on the subject of seminars or programs. When you comment on something you actually experienced, I'll listen.  Hmmm..what could that be other than your need to control other people? Where do you get Dolphin is a bitch?

PHX

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-12 19:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Just checking in to see if Antigen had an answer to my question.  



Buzz -  do you keep all your rantings in a notebook?  Did you or didn't you go to Discovery?  



Again Angigen, What does the program promise that is impossible, or what do they promise at all?  You made the statement, why ask Buzz who is notably addicted to her own delusions?



Nihilanthic = with all respect intended:  get over yourself.  Until you actually have experience and not a fear from what you read, you have no credibility on the subject of seminars or programs. When you comment on something you actually experienced, I'll listen.  Hmmm..what could that be other than your need to control other people? Where do you get Dolphin is a bitch?



PHX "

You didn't address me in this post, but I woyld like to reply.

You keep on asking people, in all kind of ways, "what makes you think you know anything about the seminars?"

Well, PHX, what makes you think YOU know anything about the seminars?

What you think you know about the porgram are all things you've been told by WWASPS. WWASPS, as we all know, truly don't mind lying if it suits their purposes. They lie about the abuse that takes place in their gulags. They lie everytime they call a critic a liar or a manipulator.

You are delusional. You are so wrapped up in your delusions that you can't see what's right in front of you. The abuse, the brainwashing, the complete destruction of human beings and the insertion of a pre-approved programmed personality-- it's all really happening. You're a proof-- just look at your inability to to do anything but defend the Holy Program.

You accuse Nihil of needing to control other people? Again, just look at yourself. You sent your child to a gulag where his/her life, thoughts, even bodily functions would be controlled, regulated and scrutinized 24/7. Where s/he would not be allowed to look sideways, look out a window, speak without permission, or even cross a threshold without asking for the permission of a bunch of undereducated 19-year-old hired to manage the captives.

You are so wrapped up in this. I know you probably can't remember what thinking feels like, but, still, I ask of you: THINK. LOOK. RESEARCH. There's a reason so many (hundreds) of people are talking about the abuse that takes place in the gulags. And don't give one of WWASPS' silly excuses when you reply to this one.

[BuzzKill]

//do you keep all your rantings in a notebook? //

Ha, yeah - its called Fornits.

//Did you or didn't you go to Discovery?//

What do you think friend? Do I sound like a seminar grad? Aren't I just a bit to prone to think for myself (stuck in my delusions, if it makes you happy) and (horror or horrors) maintain I am right, if I think I am?

//why ask Buzz who is notably addicted to her own delusions? //

Because I was a program parent and would know? Think that might be it? Those "delusions" are cutting to close to the bone for your comfort, aren't they? I can tell by your increased hostility and attempt to degrade me and so diminish the value of what I have to say. Think about this PHX. Why does it upset you to have the truth told? Why the upset and alarm on your part? Think maybe you've been Programmed to respond in exactly that why? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by believing this to be the case.

*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-07-13 06:59 ]

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-12 19:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

When you comment on something you actually experienced, I'll listen.

PHX "

So then.... what years were you a client or student of CCM?

In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President

[Nihilanthic]

My grievances, my issues I brought up in very easy to understand terms, deserve to be answered.

Firing back with something they must have told you to say to people like me or the others here, that being "Dont talk about something you havent experienced" is irrelevant. Its a strawman. It doesn't MATTER! What matters is what I brought up.

Do I really need to repeat myself, PHX? No, I dont, you can click on the page buttons, right? Just checking.

Furthermore, if its been acused of being BRAINWASHING by people who have been there, by doctors who went there to research, and by laymen (er, laychildren?) who went there, why the hell would someone WILLINGLY choose to go through that to 'experience' it? I guess those psychologists just dont know shit, and there is no right and wrong, and all hail Gilcrease, right?

We're accusing it of being traumatic, manipulative, and amounting to brainwashing. *WHY* would we choose to go through with that? I guess I need to get tied up and gangraped to know if that is traumatic, right? Well, its YOUR logic here...

Oh, and another thing - we dont have tons and tons of money we can all just throw away to go to these bullshit seminars, PHX. You feel like paying for someone to go? If so, please tell us!

The bottom line is youre repeating your dogmatic "You have to experience it, then you'll understand, and it'll explain and change everything!" (when someone doesnt want to take part of it) and then "Well, no promises! Its all about what you make of it and what you put into it" (when someone went and it didnt work).

So, keep changing your story, keep flip-flopping, and keep worshipping that asshole sheriff and wasting your income (which I'd love to know how the hell a moron like you can get, must be your husbands or old family money :idea:) and keep referring people to mind-control seminars and worshipping the authority figures youve been taught to, becuase youve been made into a damn adult child.

The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.


--William Osler

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-13 09:26:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2005-07-12 19:05:00, Anonymous wrote:


When you comment on something you actually experienced, I'll listen.


PHX "

So then.... what years were you a client or student of CCM?

In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President

"

late 1998- early 2000 - Cross Creek - mom

AND -

BUZZ - you diminish your own credibility every time you post. I don't have to do that for you.

PHX

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-13 22:10:00, Anonymous wrote:



late 1998- early 2000 - Cross Creek - mom




PHX"

And you seriously think that makes you qualified to comment on what happens to the students at CCM?

You're delusional, honey!

They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.

--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham

[BuzzKill]

//you diminish your own credibility every time you post.//

OK - if you say so; but if so, you should have no problem coming up with specific examples, of how exactly, I do this.
What have I related that you know is un-true? Not think - but know. There is a difference.


//And you seriously think that makes you qualified to comment on what happens to the students at CCM?

You're delusional, honey! //

This is the truth, and so sad. They really do think they know.
I was just talking to a friend this morning about how I too thought I knew. . .
Even after reading account after account - b/c Dundee wasn't listed I didn't think it applied to our situation. It has been a slow process - and at times, a very painful and humiliating one. I think that alone is what keeps so many of these Programmed parents from letting the truth enter their reality.
Just like any victim of any fraud - they don't want to admit it, b/c if they do, then they have to admit to having been major chumps.
This common human tendency to hide or deny that one has been a victim of fraud, combined with the programming, is a powerfully deluding force.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-14 07:44:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2005-07-13 22:10:00, Anonymous wrote:

late 1998- early 2000 - Cross Creek - mom
PHX"

And you seriously think that makes you qualified to comment on what happens to the students at CCM?



You're delusional, honey!"

I couldn't agree more! This discredits everything you say in my eyes, PHX.

WWASP PRISONER 2000-2001

[Janet]

Were you at CCM?  If so, please e-mail me at jahatitus@oregonfast.net

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-14 07:44:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2005-07-13 22:10:00, Anonymous wrote:





late 1998- early 2000 - Cross Creek - mom







PHX"

And you seriously think that makes you qualified to comment on what happens to the students at CCM?



You're delusional, honey!

They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.

--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham

"

What do you mean by "what happens" to the students at Cross Creek? That's an interesting comment, can you be a little more specific?

That's similar to the comment that "they" promise the impossible, that still hasn't been answered.

Where did you get the idea that I was commenting on what it would be like to be a student?  Reading someone else's posts?

PHX