People die there you know!

[Anonymous]

From the ABC Family Brat Camp Forum on RedCliff Ascent:

Massaratu

People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 10, 2005 03:18 PM reply

5 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 03:10 PM

Having experianced these programs personally i am appauled that they would degrade these kids suffering so much by making a reality show of it.

The REAL REALITY of it is that there have been cases where Redcliff Ascent (and also CEDU's Ascent program near ******'s Ferry Idaho) was sued by families whose children died under the "care" of these places. Of course this will not come up in the show most likely. People in the programs (including me back in Jan '99) complain of medical problems. Staff just thinks that you are trying to get out of hiking or working, but in some peoples cases they really had problems. A few after being told they were faking long enough died of medical complications. How's that for reality!

sunrisemtnbear

Re: Re: People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 10, 2005 03:59 PM reply

7 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 01:48 PM

Make sure you check your facts, man. Having been personaly affiliated with the RedCliff Ascent Program (which is NOT affliated with the one in Idaho), I know that no one has died at RCA, nor come close to it. You are right, sadly there have been deaths at other programs, but you will notice those programs are no longer in business. RedCliff Ascent's number one priority is the student's safety, physically and emotionally. As you watch the show, you'll notice the closest the kids come to dying, is when they preview their lives before they enter the program, back in London.

Massaratu

Re: Re: People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 10, 2005 04:11 PM reply

5 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 03:10 PM

Well, having been there as a "student" (i love your choice of title for the people there) i know that preceptions from "students" and those of employees can differ greatly. I understand your need as a person on that payroll to keep good face for the program and the show (hey with your wonderful insight it might be the only thing in your job description.)

Of course it would be terrible for your program and this sadistic new show if some of the darker parts come out. I'm sure that the people on this show were chosen VERY carefully to represent the cross section that RedCliff's program and ABC affiliates want people to see.

Also i know that RedCliff and CEDU are not connected. I attended both.

micahjade

Re: Re: People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 10, 2005 08:31 PM reply

10 Posts
Registered: Dec 29, 2004 08:33 PM

umm....I think someone how has worked there would know more about this than anyone who has gone through the program, i reelly really dont beileve for a second that anyone has died there or whatever you are claiming

sunrisemtnbear

Re: Re: People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 10, 2005 11:17 PM reply

7 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 01:48 PM

Just as a reply to your assumptions, I don't currently work at RedCliff, so I have no personal gain for speaking up.

I'm sure your perceptions as a student were quite different from those who were employed there (as are your perceptions of my personal resume). That's the nature of being human, having a different perspective from the person next to you. Just make sure your perspective can be backed up with facts, not just assumptions.

And for what reason would the media actually think of hiding a scandal such as "murdering youth in the wilderness?" wouldn't they actually get better ratings and more money if they came up with a story like that?

persongirl

Re: Re: People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 11, 2005 04:19 PM reply

2 Posts
Registered: Jan 11, 2005 04:17 PM

u must be really bad then to have to go to both what did u do ?

AngelofFire077

Re: Re: People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 10, 2005 08:22 PM reply

2 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 08:15 PM

You really should check your facts. They wouldn't have this show on TV if people died. The people who run the program are highly trained doctors and professional psychologists. They are trained for this sort of behavior and they know how to tell when a person is really sick.

ANDsoWEfail

Re: Re: People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 10, 2005 08:24 PM reply

3 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 07:56 PM

the people who run it are perverted

Massaratu

Re: Re: People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 10, 2005 08:32 PM reply

5 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 03:10 PM

How do you know this AngelofFire... have you been there?

softstone

Re: Re: People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 10, 2005 08:44 PM reply

4 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 08:37 PM

I was there a few years ago (in utah) and they all were great people. They push you hard, but not in a bad way. I never felt as if they didn't care about my health.

wantachange

Re: Re: People die there you know!

Posted: Jan 11, 2005 08:57 AM reply

8 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 10:11 AM

everyone should take a look on the message board at "not surprised" this place lied to us so many times. if we had not gotten our daughter when we did, she would have died out there. she to complained of ailments. she had to have an ingrown toenail removed from wearing too small hiking boots and after she returned home we found out she had broken an ankle out ther at RCA and they made her keep on hiking.

[Deborah]

sunrisemtnbear wrote:
Make sure you check your facts, man. Having been personaly affiliated with the RedCliff Ascent Program (which is NOT affliated with the one in Idaho), I know that no one has died at RCA, nor come close to it. You are right, sadly there have been deaths at other programs, but you will notice those programs are no longer in business.

Let's see who needs to 'check their facts'.

Vision Quest- 15 deaths...still operating.
Camp O'Neil- 6 deaths...still operating under a different name- Crater Lake.
Skyline Journey- 1 death...still operating under a different name- Distant Drums..
Catherine Freer- 3 deaths...still operating.
Anasazi- 1 death...still operating.
Appalachian- 1 death...still operating.
Eckherd- 1 death?still operating.
Summit Quest- 1 death?owner moved across state lines and continued to operate.
Obsidian Trails- 1 death...operated until 2002. Owner went on to write a training manual, "Parents in Control?- military tactics you can use at home.
Red Rock Ranch- 1 death...continued to operate until late 2002.
Challenger- 1 death?.owner set up programs outside the US and was involved with many in the states.
Rite of Passage- 1 (or2?) deaths?still operating.
Northstar- 1 death...closed but key players went on to work for Sage Walk and/or Obsidian Trails. The owner of the later knew one was under a diversion agreement and didn?t fire him until his presence was exposed.

sunrisemtnbear, you are apparently getting your information from the wrong source, or intentionally misleading the public. Care to comment?

[Anonymous]

nor come close to it.

Jared Oscarson came close to it.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... um=9#72655

[obsidian student]

I was a student at obsidian trails from October of 1999 until March of 2000.  I had some problems when I was a teenager; I believe obsidian trails saved my life.  I read about the death of Eddie Lee and was in school when the two students ran away and robbed an old couple of their car.  However I believe the people who owned and operated Obsidian trails truly want to help children with there problems and I can tell you when I was out there in the beginning I would have said anything to get out of there so although I hear the horror stories of  how badly the children at obsidian trails were treated, I can say with first hand knowledge that It wasn?t that bad.  I am currently in the police academy in New York and hope that one day I will be able to help children the way that the employees of Obsidian Trails helped me.

[Antigen]

Yeah, so what if they kill a kid or two now and then. They must have done something to deserve it. You'll fit right in w/ NYPD.

The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-19 13:48:00, obsidian student wrote:

"I was a student at obsidian trails from October of 1999 until March of 2000.  I had some problems when I was a teenager; I believe obsidian trails saved my life.  I read about the death of Eddie Lee and was in school when the two students ran away and robbed an old couple of their car.  However I believe the people who owned and operated Obsidian trails truly want to help children with there problems and I can tell you when I was out there in the beginning I would have said anything to get out of there so although I hear the horror stories of  how badly the children at obsidian trails were treated, I can say with first hand knowledge that It wasn?t that bad.  I am currently in the police academy in New York and hope that one day I will be able to help children the way that the employees of Obsidian Trails helped me."

Two different results delivered by the same treatment modality.  One kid comes out alive claiming the program "helped" him while another kid comes out on a stretcher headed for a nearby hospital where he is pronounced D.O.A.  

"Picture Eddie Lee, the 15 year old boy restrained face-down on the ground by counselors for 15-35 minutes on September 18, 2000 with dirt in his nose and mouth but still alive.  Then fast forward a few hours later to a hospital in Bend, Oregon, where Eddie Lee is pronounced dead.  The victim of a fatal injury to the vertebral artery on the left side of his neck at the base of the skull.  An injury so deadly that had it happened at the doors of the hospital, Eddie Lee still would not have survived.  Now imagine the Lake County grand jury a couple of months later on November 3, 2000 declining to indict Charles Matthew Sharp, the 22 year old Obsidian Trails counselor charged with criminally negligent homicide in the death of William H. Edward Lee.  The reason:  Not enough evidence was presented in two days of hearings to prove criminal conduct.  An opinion that should surprise no one since the grand jury did not hear from a key witness.  Someone who surely could have told them what really happened "out there in the wilderness" and whether Sharp acted "appropriately" or not when his actions caused a child to lose his life.  The witness?  Eddie Lee."


http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/opedarchives.html

Barbe Stamps
TAUSA

[Anonymous]

Can you believe that, 22 year old 'counselor' ?!??!

THis is typical of all the programs, he is probably a graduate of the program, and wanted to stay around and 'help' other teens. (cult speak for: I can't do anything but the program because I am too weird)

Poor kid man, dying face down in the dirt for no reason is fucked up. His parents definitely got what they payed for.

LOOK AT THE LIST OF DEAD KIDS. DEAD- AS IN - NEVER COMING BACK!

I can't believe parents send their kids to these things... I can't believe there is a reality TV show endorsing, basically a FUCKING INFOMERCIAL for these shithole programs.

You notice what losers the staff are? Goddamnit, this really riles me up. Seeing those kids names makes me mad and deeply sad, lives completely wasted because of their parents ignorance. STOP THIS!

[Deborah]

Fathom this:

You pay for a 3 hour marathon session for your kid with a therapist.

The therapist calls your kid names like spoiled brat, punk wanna-be, emotional terrorist and pokes and prods until your son goes into a rage.

The therapist proceeds to put your son in an illegal restraint. For all the 'right' reasons of course.  

Son is scared and angry, continues to struggle. Therapist does nothing to de-escalate the situation. (Why would he, he intentionally caused it) Your son is held for over two hours and is ignored when he begins to complain of not being able to breath. Your son draws his last breath and dies of suffocation in the session.

Think that therapist might loose his license and face criminal charges? I feel certain, just as the 'rebirther' did.

Now why oh why, is it viewed any differently when field guides kill a kid in a wilderness or therapeutic program? WHY the double standard? WHY the sweeping social acceptance? This shit wouldn't fly anywhere else in society.

[Nihilanthic]

Because the program can lie about what really happened and paint a rosey picture of whats really going on, or brainwash a parent or staffer until they believe that what theyre seeing isnt what theyre seeing at all... thats why.

There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
http://www.tatteredcover.com/NASApp/store/IndexJsp?s=showproduct&affiliateId=000095&isbn=0753816571' target='_new'>Alfred Lord Tennyson

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-19 17:35:00, Deborah wrote:

"

Fathom this:



You pay for a 3 hour marathon session for your kid with a therapist.



The therapist calls your kid names like spoiled brat, punk wanna-be, emotional terrorist and pokes and prods until your son goes into a rage.



The therapist proceeds to put your son in an illegal restraint. For all the 'right' reasons of course.  



Son is scared and angry, continues to struggle. Therapist does nothing to de-escalate the situation. (Why would he, he intentionally caused it) Your son is held for over two hours and is ignored when he begins to complain of not being able to breath. Your son draws his last breath and dies of suffocation in the session.



Think that therapist might loose his license and face criminal charges? I feel certain, just as the 'rebirther' did.



Now why oh why, is it viewed any differently when field guides kill a kid in a wilderness or therapeutic program? WHY the double standard? WHY the sweeping social acceptance? This shit wouldn't fly anywhere else in society.







"

Good point, Deb!

Not sure if you remember this, but on Struggling Teens there was quite a bit of discussion following the death of Eddie.  While some parents did remove their children, one parent who did not actually said the reason she didn't was because she believed the program was SAFER.

In other words, this particular mother had developed a FALSE SENSE of security about the safety and efficacy of Obsidian Trails AFTER a child died while in their care.

Shocking?  Not really, given that we have seen this same mentality repeated virtually every time a child has died while in the custody of one of these programs.

Sick and twisted as it may be ... there are parents who believe that as long as it isn't their child coming home in a body bag, the program is safe.

 :scared: