Redcliffer

[Anonymous]

Well ... since the boy's doctor didn't think WT was necessary .... then what is the kid doing there?  Redcliff should be ashamed.  Keeping a kid that his own doctor says doesn't need WT? That makes no sense ... or does it?

On the upside, if the kid gets hurt in any way (physical, emotional, mental) at least you will be on record as having raised your concerns.

Best wishes to you and your boy.  I hope it all turns out okay.

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-08-09 14:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Thanks to everyone for their input and assistance.  Redcliff told us (after consulting with their attorney) that we had to have a specific court order for my husband to remove his son from the program, and after compiling a mountain of paperwork, we had a hearing to try to get the court order.  Right now, I'm pretty angry about this.  The court said there is no evidence that being at Redcliff will definitely be HARMFUL to him.  So the motion was DENIED.  I am incredulous over this.  The paperwork included the psychological evaluation stating wilderness therapy was not called for, and could be counter-productive.  That wasn't enough.  His father has NO rights whatsoever.  He is just used as a source of money.  That's all.  I am frustrated beyond description.  Well, the good news is that one day my husband can show his son that he did everything possible to help him.  He hasn't been allowed to speak to his son since he was taken away by "escorts".  My husband is allowed to write him letters, and he has, but any mail the child sends to my husband is first received by his ex-wife, and SHE decides whether to forward it on.  As you can probably guess, we haven't received any letters from him.  I'm really bummed, but I'll get over it.  I'm not so sure about the child.  "

It does seem incredulous, but I suppose it hinges on the divorce agreement itself. My own divorce agreement states very specifically that my son cannot cross state lines, leave the country, change schools, or receive medical treatment without the express written consent of both of us. My ex attempted to get a Passport for our son and I easily blocked it (she seriously wanted to move to Canada when Bush was re-elected.) :smile: I thought she was over-reacting, and I didn't want him to be so far away.

Our divorce agreement prevents either of us from moving such a distance that visitation travel would be burdensome to the other parent, unless we both sign an agreement to the move. When my ex violated this by moving 100 miles away, I received full custody of my son. She eventually moved back, and we have joint custody, again.

Above all, check in with a good custody lawyer. Custody issues are never closed and can reopened by either parent at any time. You could sue for custody.

[Deborah]

Too time consuming these days, especially when a program is involved. By the time it d-r-a-g-s through the court your kid could have completed the program.
All those rights are not protection, some parents violate them and worry about the consequences later. They are not guarentees that your kids will not be sent across state lines OR that you could get him/her back. The program will collude with the cooperative parent, in my case stooped so low as to perjure themselves.
It's a whole different ballgame than if your ex moves 100 miles away.

[Anonymous]

Yep.  We are in New Hampshire, the mother is in California.  Jursidiction is in NH, which one would think would be a GOOD thing, but the Marital Master who is assigned to hear all our legal matters has consistently ruled so unfairly against my husband, and I guess we were stupid to believe she would help him now.  Maybe she's a single mom, and sympathizes with the mother. Who knows what's going on in her mind. We can't understand her decisions.  Joe Blow on the street would reel in disbelief of her rulings. She is NOT doing what is best for the child.  The parents have JOINT LEGAL CUSTODY, yet the mother has been able to make ALL decisions about the child without even consulting the father.  She's been found in contempt of court for this kind of thing in the past, but that's ALL that happens....a piece of paper saying she acted in contempt.  And that's only done to cover the MM's behind.  So why would the mother change her behavior when there are no consequences?  We want to believe in the judicial system, but right now, we feel like we're living in a Communist country.  My husband is not allowed to see or speak to his son, and his son's mail to him can be intercepted by the mother.  We did ask for temporary physical custody (pending a permanent order), allowing my husband to pick the child up and bring him home.  Denied.  We asked for a court order to enable him to remove him from Redcliff.  Denied.  We've considered asking this Marital Master to recuse herself, simply due to the fact that any idiot could see her rulings are not sound, and are slanted in the mother's favor.  But we are confident she would refuse to do that, and then make things even more difficult for us.  We are between a rock and a hard place.  We feel helpless, and hopeless, and we're just trying not to do anything stupid at this point.  We know we can't win in court.  The child will be entering high school late, due to being at Redcliff.  The court doesn't care.  Redcliff doesn't give a rat's behind that the doctor said he doesn't need to be there. THEY NOW HAVE THE WRITTEN REPORT STATING THIS. It's very clear from the report, that he is only there so the mother can enjoy her summer without him around to interfere with her & her boyfriend.  We asked Redcliff if the content of the report matters to them....they replied that it's helpful for them to have it in his file.  They accepted him based on the mother's assertion she wants him there, and her 3rd ex-husband bringing them repeat business (anyone see a pattern here?  How many people send two of their former unrelated step-sons to Redcliff??), and they are just counting the money.  If they were seriously in the business of helping children, they would acknowledge he does not need or deserve to be there, and they'd set him free.  That's not what they are about.  It's all about the money.  These wilderness therapy programs are BIG BUSINESS.  And they like being in Utah and other select states where they only need one parent's signature to accept a child and the accompanying $$$$$.

[Anonymous]

Also, by the way, the child was born in New Hampshire, and his mother moved to California with him after the divorce.  My husband had no say in that either.

[Anonymous]

Has Red Cliff's been cooperative in sharing status information on your son? Since he is a minor, one would think that both parents should have same access to information about their son.  If they haven't one would think you could make this a civil action in court.  Guessing that there aren't any lawyers reading this forum who would care to comment.

[Anonymous]

HA!  I doubt there are any lawyers prepared to take on the booming Wilderness Therapy BUSINESS.  Yes, Redcliff has complied with our requests for SOME information.  We are still trying to get the facts on the child's "abduction"....which contract escort service was hired, where he was abducted from, his demeanor, his flight information, etc.  For some reason, they are dragging their feet on this one.  When we ask for anything from them, it takes a while to get a response, and in a few instances we were ignored altogether.  Suddenly they are starting to question if we are "authorized" to receive this information.

Although it appears our hands are tied, I do have good news (No, I didn't save a bunch of money on car insurance).  The child's assigned therapist is spectacular.  We get to talk to her for 15 minutes a week, and she is just wonderful.  She tells it like it is.  She really cares.  Her focus is entirely on the kids.  I only wish the Redcliff organization as a whole followed her example.  

Stay tuned for the continuing saga.....

[Anonymous]

As it turns out, it's a good thing we were denied the court order to remove the child from Redcliff.  My husband had spoken to their director this past Monday, and confirmed he could be released if we just showed up with a court order, and since the jurisdiction over custody is here in NH, we figured that would be it.  The director promised to get back with my husband, once he was able to confirm the child's mother had signed a release to give him information (it's in the file)....and THEN he could tell us the name of the agency who provided the "escort".  We waited.....waited some more.  My husband finally called him AGAIN and now it's yet a DIFFERENT story.  NOW he says (after consulting counsel again) that we'd need a court order from UTAH.  One week before they only needed a court order....the week before that they didn't even NEED a court order.....but now we'd have to go file a petition in UTAH.  My husband asked him if he would please put that in writing for our records.  Declined.  Nothing more in writing.  So my husband asked him if he even checked in the file for the authorization, as he said he would.  This just keeps getting better & better.  Now he is not willing to even TELL him IF he is on the list of people authorized to get information.  To tell him whether he IS or ISN'T authorized would be a privacy violation, I guess.  But WHY is he doing this when I am sitting here looking at a COPY of the actual authorization, and my husband is listed there!   :eek:  So, he is not authorized to know he is authorized.  Does this make any sense?  We have tried to get information from the sending & receiving states' offices that handle the Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children.  They handle the paperwork required to send kids from one state to another for purposes such as wilderness therapy.  Due to privacy matters, they cannot tell him if his son is on file anywhere.  This is required by law, and it's my understanding from research that the receiving state has to approve accepting the child based on the information provided.  And they must approve it before the child can be moved from one state to another.  We will continue to pursue this issue until we are confident all laws were complied with.  Redcliff gave us the number of their attorney, if we needed any additional information, and we called but got no answer.  It just rang and then a mechanical voice said they couldn't take the call or something like that, and that "Your call will be terminated now".  This is worse than hitting a brick wall.  We still have not received any mail from the child, although we learned from his counselor that he DID send mail.  Redcliff confirmed today that his mail to us IS going directly to the mother, and it's up to her to send it on to us, if she chooses.  No exceptions for the OTHER parent to receive mail directly. I guess it would inconvenience Redcliff to make that exception.  We aren't allowed to see him, speak with him, and now his mail to us is intercepted. One of the child's field instructors took photos of him and emailed them to the mother.  We heard that he wrote his mother a very long letter, begging to be brought home.  It's so sad, and we feel so helpless.

[Deborah]

Dear lord.
I hope your husband will sue them into bankruptcy. The total disregard of parental rights is unconsionable. Show em what tough love and consequences looks like.
When I contacted the state ICPC office I didn't 'ask' for info. I filed a complaint stating my son had been placed in violation. They hemmed and hawed, and as it turned out, didn't even know how the law read or how to interpret it, much less enforce it. They defered to the receiving state who claimed that the facility was a private boarding school, therefore exempt. And it's not their role to go after programs that are wrongly classified.
Brings back some very painful memories.

[Nonconformistlaw]

Anonymous said ----"HA! I doubt there are any lawyers prepared to take on the booming Wilderness Therapy BUSINESS."----

One day in the very near future, there will be at least one more lawyer out there (me) who is fully aware of and understands the illegal, unethical, and inhumane activites of programs like the one you describe. And I have ever intention of fighting them once I have enough experience to do so.

I realize this is no help to you now. And I dont know enough law in this area to be remotely useful to you. But I hope that information, that just maybe more lawyers ARE enlightened about the injustice occuring in these programs, gives you some comfort.

I've read all your messages on this thread and just wanted to wish you luck. And I also wanted to say...get the most experienced and aggressive attorney you can find, if you haven't already, and dont let up.  ::rainbow::

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the commentary. From the research I've done, it looks like a lot of these programs are having an identity crisis.  They don't know which category they fall into, and don't understand how the Interstate Compact applies to them.  In this case, it's a bit of a hint that their application packet includes the IC form.  If this is not complied with properly is it a Federal offense?

We are desperate.  My husband hasn't eaten in three days, and I could pack my clothes in the bags under his eyes.  Finally, a relative of the mother emailed us some photos of the child, taken last week at Redcliff.  He looked so skinny, sunken in, dirty, and hot.  I couldn't stand it.  I haven't stopped crying since. I don't know how his mother sleeps at night. I just can't comprehend how she could do something like this to her own child, when he just plain doesn't deserve it. She needs to trade places with him. They made him smile for the picture, I know his fake smile. His face didn't even look the same.   It broke my heart, and my husband was crushed.  

We hadn't given any thought to a lawsuit. At least, not against Redcliff. We felt they had just made some really bad choices in accepting the child, when there were red flags all over the application.  They were very slow to respond to questions or requests, and at some point, they quit responding at all. We've been immersed in trying to find a way to get him out, dealing with a crazy Family Court system (which was apparently a total waste of time, effort and money, since they NOW say it has to be a court order from UTAH).  We have so much documentation, we're running out of room to store it all.  Until recently, they seemed to be okay with sharing information. But they still chose to ignore the findings of the psychological evaluation which stated this was contraindicated. But now, things are changing.  And not for the better.  Now they are basically saying the fact that the parents have JOINT legal custody means NOTHING.  They are treating my husband like an intruder in his son's life.  Now they are telling us things that just don't even sound LEGAL, but refuse to confirm it in writing.  Usually if someone won't stand behind a statement in writing, they are afraid of something.  We have been allocated 15 minutes per week to get progress reports from his counselor, and that's been our lifeline.  I'm afraid they will take that away from us now.  That would be like a stake through my husband's heart.  

I did get one chuckle today.  The guy at Redcliff said he has a young son, and he's going to put his son through the "program" when he's older, just for the great experience of it all.  My fantasy would be to open my own wilderness therapy camp in NH, have an unrelated third party sign a consent form and pay to enroll HIS INNOCENT SON in it, have a couple of paid strangers abduct his son without his knowledge, and remove him from his home and bring him to ME.  I could show his child a really good, character-building wilderness experience.  I would let him eat plain oatmeal every morning, and if he was really good, I might give him a chance to earn some sugar or spices (no kidding, they actually DO this).  We'd hike all day in extreme temperatures, stop somewhere and dig a latrine, and sleep under a tarp. I'd hire a licensed social worker to visit the child once a week and talk to him.  I would give him a 15 minute report on his son's progress once a week, but he could not see his son or speak to him for 30 - 60+ days. He could send his son letters, but his son's letters back to him would be routed through his worst enemy to decide IF he should receive them.  He'd just have to take MY WORD for it that his son is safe and doing just fine.  I wonder how he would feel.  Would he be angry?  Would he be hurt, knowing he couldn't help his child?  I honestly don't know.  He's just a businessman.  Do businessmen cry?  Maybe they only cry when they lose money.

I'm sorry.  I'm just blowing off steam.  And I'm sleep-deprived.  We'll be spending the weekend hashing this out, and trying to figure out the next step.  This just can't go on much longer.  My husband is not going to survive this if we can't do something effective very soon.  

Thanks for the support!  WE NEED IT!!!!

[Deborah]

***They are treating my husband like an intruder in his son's life.***

I can so relate to this. It's only words until you have lived it. It was the most surreal experience I've ever had. Phone rings on Monday morning and a total stranger informs me that my son has been enrolled in their program, would be there 18 months (extended to 22), and laid out the rules of communication for the next few months. Oh, and of course, hopes that I will be supportive, because that is what's in my son's best interest.
My head was swirling. I couldn't think.
When I could finally formulate a sentence I asked him if it was a psychiatric hospital. No. Who had dx'd my son ODD? THEY had, based on his father's complaints. How convenient!
Overnight I lost total contact with my son. His letters were choreographed and talked of his 'therapeutic' goals. It was someone else's words. Not my son's. And not positive or comforting. When the calls finally began they were monitored. He was able to tell me how confused he was, but most complaints were interrupted- manipulation. He couldn't figure out what they expected of him. He was in a highly distressed state.
Toward the end I rarely received my calls. I was forbidden from calling the facility. All calls had to go through their corp attorney. This because I reported them to state aurhorities for operating without a license.
When I finally saw him for the first time in 3 months he looked like a refugee. Thin, grey as a lizard, dirrhea for 3 days. Had been on restriction the better part of the prior month, subsisting on dry cereal, white bread and cheese sandwiches for lunch and dinner... provided he didn't loose a meal as punishment. We cried a lot during the visit. I promised him I'd do everything I could to get him out. My heart ached to see what they had done to him and I shuttered to think what he'd be like after 2 years. It was truly unbelievable. You can read more of the details in the HLA thread.
To this day I have never received a single document I requested from my son's file.
I'm so sorry that ya'll have to go through the same thing. Hopefully it will only be a couple of months and not years.
Keep us posted.
Oh! What was the rationale for needing a court order from Utah. Sorry if I missed the explanation. Does a Utah court have jurisdiction over the divorce decree?

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-12 21:38 ]

[Anonymous]

Deborah, I can't even imagine what you've gone through!  What a horrific experience!  For us, it's only been three weeks (so far) but we feel like our hearts have been ripped out.  I hope you didn't go through that alone.  We are so grateful we have each other to lean on.  We keep reassuring each other that Redcliff has a good safety record, and that his son is (or WAS) physically strong and healthy.  But we are scared to death what this is doing to him emotionally.  He knows he is there because he has a deeply troubled narcissistic mother.  I've written his Redcliff counselor, who fully understands his situation now, and asked her if it's possible to teach him coping skills, and skills to manage or mitigate his mother's rages, before he goes home.  If he can't learn how to calm her down, he'll go home one day, and the next day he'll wake up to "escorts" again.  Redcliff has the written report saying his relationship with his mother leaves him in an almost chronic expectation of attack.  He is a victim, Redcliff Ascent knows this, and they are contributing to his continued victimization in my opinion.  

The Utah thing.  It doesn't make sense.  The jurisdiction over custody remains in the control of New Hampshire.  Utah has no jurisdiction over this that I can see. They refuse to put this in writing.  The last thing we got in writing was the "new and improved" list of requirements to be allowed to remove him (it changes all the time), which was faxed on 8/2, and it said an order from a court of competent jurisdiction.  This is somewhat nebulous, but NH has jurisdiction over the child's custody. Now they insist only Utah can compel them to release him...but again, they won't put this in writing.  They could easily choose to release this child.  They simply WON'T.

The bottom line is:  Redcliff decided to accept this child based on a highly questionable and incomplete application, his mother saying he was troubled, and a signature to charge the credit card of her 3rd ex-husband. They disregarded the findings of his evaluating psychologist.  At that point, they accepted responsibility for this.  Morally, at least (legally remains to be seen) they have no right to deny my husband access to his son.  But they very arrogantly state their "policies" allow them to do so.  I find it very hard to believe that any BUSINESS has the right to keep a parent from his child.  It's the moral equivalent of kidnapping.  None of this makes any sense.  

I know there are children who are so out of control, their parents feel they have no choice but to send them away.  I know they must AGONIZE over such a decision. They've sent their kids through intensive outpatient therapy, and worked hard to help them. But that's not the case here.  Aside from a couple of "family counseling" sessions, no other avenues were explored.  This was practically a FIRST COURSE OF ACTION.  It's like swatting a fly with a bulldozer.  He's a normal kid with an out-of-control mother.  She is hoping he will return to her fully submissive and malleable.
 :nworthy:  

I really have to wonder how many parents have gone through this.  This is not new to Redcliff, as they have a specific provision in their enrollment contract that addresses "WITHDRAWAL AS A RESULT OF A CUSTODY DISPUTE".  I only have a faxed copy of this, and the print is so tiny and messy, it's hard to read.  I'm trying to get a better copy. If any former Redcliff parents have a legible copy of this form, please let me know!!! But it looks like they charge an early termination fee of $750.00, and looks like there are no refunds of tuition...it's basically an agreement that they will accept NO liability for anything.  Well, all I can say is my husband DIDN'T SIGN their agreement.  Just as he DIDN'T SIGN their agreement to let them RESTRAIN his son, or prevent him from speaking to him, or seeing him, or bringing him home.  The more I write, the more incensed I become.

It seems they are leaving us no choice.  Unfortunately, legal action is slow, and the child will be out before we ever see a courtroom.  But.....JUST MAYBE we can do something to keep this from happening to another parent and another innocent child.  They CHOOSE to disregard the parent's rights, and the child's right to due process.  And they are GETTING AWAY WITH IT. They have to be stopped.

[Troll Control]

Just a thought...

Since people are telling you things that they won't put in writing, are you recording your conversations?  It's perfectly legal as long as ONE party is aware of the taping.  Tapes like that can be powerful evidence.

I agree Family Court is complete BS.  They kick the can down the road for months until it's too late, but wouldn't have acted anyway, in a timely or other fashion.

I support the advice you were given earlier in this thread.  Retain an aggressive, experienced attorney and DON'T LET UP.

When it's all said and done, sue for compensatory and punitive damages and for legal fees.

Don't believe the lines that the program feeds you over where jurisdiction lies.  Retain an attorney who WANTS to help you figure things out.  Stonewalling, dissembling and outright prevarication are trademarks of the industry.  don't let them play this game with you.

Most of all, realize that the law IS on your side, but getting civil servants to act is not an easy task.  Light the fire under them.  Also be aware that your gratification lies far down the road.  You will have to stick it out.

These programs win by simply NOT LOSING.  The longer they drag it out, the more money they make before they have to return the goose that lays their golden eggs.

You're looking at your WATCH, they're looking at the CALENDAR.  

Good luck and stay strong...

[Anonymous]

Again I say call the Child Welfare Agency in that state they must respond to reports of abuse and or neglect that is the Federal Law.  Also to deny mail to a child is not a parents option - it is a violation of their civil rights even people in prison get their mail.  Often times programs may open the mail for only purposes of checking for drugs etc, but it is truly a violation of their civil rights.  

Go get this child - go to the courts in Utah with an order from the Courts in NH and either they will honor it or will do their own.

Good luck.
Andrea
pfrr.org