Author Topic: Redcliffer  (Read 58249 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #165 on: January 15, 2006, 02:27:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-05 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

How is your son doing now? Mine is doing exceptional. He calls me several times a week and loves his new school (of course it is not a behaviorial mod/level system or WWASP run place) It is a safe place where he can learn in a drug free environment.

We sold our home and are moving out of state just so that he can have a freash start when he gets home in a few months.


Dear Johnny,
  Now that we're done erasing your personality, we're taking the final step and erasing your history, too! Isn't that wonderful, Johnny!

Yes, mom, I'm so thankful, you're the greatest!
 :roll:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Mykidsmom

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« Reply #166 on: January 15, 2006, 10:30:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-15 11:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-01-05 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:


How is your son doing now? Mine is doing exceptional. He calls me several times a week and loves his new school (of course it is not a behaviorial mod/level system or WWASP run place) It is a safe place where he can learn in a drug free environment.



We sold our home and are moving out of state just so that he can have a freash start when he gets home in a few months.




Dear Johnny,

  Now that we're done erasing your personality, we're taking the final step and erasing your history, too! Isn't that wonderful, Johnny!



Yes, mom, I'm so thankful, you're the greatest!

 :roll: "

Time will tell.  Right now my son is healthy and happy and clean and sober.  He is looking forward to coming home to live with us in a place where he can not be a slave to his past and other peoples preconceived expectations that he is now and will always be a drug addict.

Nothing will erase his history because that is all that it is -- history.. nothing more nothing less.  Parents move all of the time.. I think it is a little dramatic to say it is erasing anyones history.  

Who said I erased his personaility?  He is the same kid I sent in terms of his core personaility traits -- If he were a drone then I would be very worried.

He is a more considerate person than he was who understands that he is responsibile for his   behavior and choices in life whatever they may be.

He can sit in a classroom and make it through the day without getting kicked out.  He can get through the day without drugs.  He is atriculate and developing a new passion for art and the outdoors.  If that is abuse then I am guilty as charged.

At the end of the day if he wants to return to the pig pen and roll around in the crap then that is his decision.  I am trying to give him the best possible shot at life...

If Redcliff did what this Mom says they did then she has an obligation to shout this from the roof tops and sue them for everything they have... to not do so is more morally corrupt then she accuses them of being.

So what if they have to sue them in Utah.  If she is so concerned as to completely bash an organization and make damaging claims against them shoudn't she be as committed to making them pay for what they have done?

Any good attorney who thinks they have a case should be licking thier chops to get a piece of that money machine.

Have they filed a formal complaint with the state licensing board so other parents will be able to get that information?  Have they filed a civil suit?  Have they alerted the mainstream media?  Did they contact their congress person?

It just does not jive with the organization I know and yes entrusted my son's care to.  Quite frankly I think there is most likely more to your story and you are leaving out some un flattering facts that don't support your arguments.

But then what a terrible awful mother I am.  I should have let him sit in his room and smoke his brains out.

I should have listened more to him when he was calling me every vulgar name in the book because I asked him to come home at night.  I should have asked him to pretty please not deal drugs.

I should have been more understanding when he was using meth and stealing from me and the neighbors --

oh and outpaitent therapy should have worked just as well as inpatient but for that nasty little detail that he went to his meetings and appointments higher than a kite and admits that he does not remember anything that anyone was even saying...

Oh I am sooo glad you have schooled me in the error of my ways...if only I would have taken your advice and done nothing -- my son would have been in a far better place today -- you want to talk about pathetic...maybe you should all get a mirror --
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #167 on: January 15, 2006, 11:23:00 PM »
And robbed blindly of his birthright to find out if he could unfuck himself.

This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.
--John Adams, U.S. President

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #168 on: January 15, 2006, 11:25:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-15 19:30:00, Mykidsmom wrote:

At the end of the day if he wants to return to the pig pen and roll around in the crap then that is his decision. I am trying to give him the best possible shot at life...


The perfect is always the enemy of the practical.

say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.
--Kurt Vonnegut, American author

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #169 on: January 15, 2006, 11:31:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-15 19:30:00, Mykidsmom wrote:

Oh I am sooo glad you have schooled me in the error of my ways...if only I would have taken your advice and done nothing -- my son would have been in a far better place today -- you want to talk about pathetic...maybe you should all get a mirror --


My darlin peer, you have purchased a pig in a poke. You have paid dearly, in terms of money and fidelity tests. You just stay in touch and let us all know how it turns out. Your son is heartily welcome here too.

I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #170 on: January 16, 2006, 08:29:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-01-15 19:30:00, Mykidsmom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-01-15 11:27:00, Anonymous wrote:


"
Quote


On 2006-01-05 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:



How is your son doing now? Mine is doing exceptional. He calls me several times a week and loves his new school (of course it is not a behaviorial mod/level system or WWASP run place) It is a safe place where he can learn in a drug free environment.





We sold our home and are moving out of state just so that he can have a freash start when he gets home in a few months.







Dear Johnny,


  Now that we're done erasing your personality, we're taking the final step and erasing your history, too! Isn't that wonderful, Johnny!





Yes, mom, I'm so thankful, you're the greatest!


 :roll: "


Time will tell.  Right now my son is healthy and happy and clean and sober.  He is looking forward to coming home to live with us in a place where he can not be a slave to his past and other peoples preconceived expectations that he is now and will always be a drug addict.



Nothing will erase his history because that is all that it is -- history.. nothing more nothing less.  Parents move all of the time.. I think it is a little dramatic to say it is erasing anyones history.  



Who said I erased his personaility?  He is the same kid I sent in terms of his core personaility traits -- If he were a drone then I would be very worried.



He is a more considerate person than he was who understands that he is responsibile for his   behavior and choices in life whatever they may be.



He can sit in a classroom and make it through the day without getting kicked out.  He can get through the day without drugs.  He is atriculate and developing a new passion for art and the outdoors.  If that is abuse then I am guilty as charged.



At the end of the day if he wants to return to the pig pen and roll around in the crap then that is his decision.  I am trying to give him the best possible shot at life...



If Redcliff did what this Mom says they did then she has an obligation to shout this from the roof tops and sue them for everything they have... to not do so is more morally corrupt then she accuses them of being.



So what if they have to sue them in Utah.  If she is so concerned as to completely bash an organization and make damaging claims against them shoudn't she be as committed to making them pay for what they have done?



Any good attorney who thinks they have a case should be licking thier chops to get a piece of that money machine.



Have they filed a formal complaint with the state licensing board so other parents will be able to get that information?  Have they filed a civil suit?  Have they alerted the mainstream media?  Did they contact their congress person?



It just does not jive with the organization I know and yes entrusted my son's care to.  Quite frankly I think there is most likely more to your story and you are leaving out some un flattering facts that don't support your arguments.



But then what a terrible awful mother I am.  I should have let him sit in his room and smoke his brains out.



I should have listened more to him when he was calling me every vulgar name in the book because I asked him to come home at night.  I should have asked him to pretty please not deal drugs.



I should have been more understanding when he was using meth and stealing from me and the neighbors --



oh and outpaitent therapy should have worked just as well as inpatient but for that nasty little detail that he went to his meetings and appointments higher than a kite and admits that he does not remember anything that anyone was even saying...



Oh I am sooo glad you have schooled me in the error of my ways...if only I would have taken your advice and done nothing -- my son would have been in a far better place today -- you want to talk about pathetic...maybe you should all get a mirror -- "


Wow.  You're a snotty little condescending bitch, aren't you?  If this is the extent of your communications skills, it surprises me not one bit that junior has no respect for you or what you say.  I want you to work on yourself before shipping your kids off to the conformity factory.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #171 on: January 16, 2006, 10:35:00 AM »
Are you familiar w/ Jello Biafra?

http://fornits.com/sounds/Jello.m3u

God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #172 on: January 16, 2006, 05:11:00 PM »
In all fairness, the tone in her responses matches the tone of the posts she is replying to.
 
I can understanding the family moving. I grew up in a small town where everyone knows everyone. People get pidgeonholed at an early age and it is almost impossible to change the community's perception. I hated it.

I question the methods these programs use. I also question that her son could go from foul mouthed, violent, drug dealer, meth addict, to model citizen just by attending one. I think his exploits may be exaggerated, but I was not there.

But, if he is doing okay, then he is doing okay. I don't believe brainwashing works, not for long. So if he has changed, he has decided to change.

That is the rub for me. It's the part where they break the teenagers. I don't think it is moral, humane, or effective. It is dangerous and harmful.
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Offline Notafriendofredcliff

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« Reply #173 on: January 16, 2006, 07:25:00 PM »
I feel accused, and I feel the need to reply to some of the questions.  I don?t care for the ugly turn this has taken.

First of all, the need for a court order from Utah was what Steve Nadauld told us would be required for them to allow the boy to be removed from their program.  Any orders we could provide from our home state courts, which had jurisdiction over the custody, would not be recognized or accepted.  We asked to have this put in writing, and Mr. Nadauld refused.  I can prove this, should it ever be required.  By the time it could have been addressed in the Utah courts, it would have been too late to help.

So far as considering a lawsuit, we discussed it.  We have no obligation, moral or otherwise, to drag our family through the legal system.  I do feel an obligation to let others know that this ?business? can violate your rights as a joint legal custodian, in every conceivable way.  And they can put your child through their program against your wishes.  We don?t want tainted money that was made off the misery of children and incompetence/desperation of parents.   When he is an adult, he may pursue it legally if he chooses.  But for now he?s been through enough.  We are concentrating on helping him heal and do not want any distractions.  He has asked to see the documentation we have, and we have provided it to him.  We?ve answered all his questions about how he came to be there, and the reasons we were not able to have him released.  He can see that the forms were faxed back and forth between Redcliff, his mother?s employer?s fax, and the business fax of the unrelated third party that signed as his father, in the week prior to his abduction.  He lost 80 days of his life there.  He is entitled to know how that was allowed to happen to him.  

Yes, we contacted every official and agency that could possibly offer us any assistance.  We hit roadblocks repeatedly, due to privacy concerns.  We were shuffled from one agency to another.  We even tried to confirm that they had at least complied with the Interstate Compact laws that cover transporting children between states for this sort of purpose.  No dice, privacy issues.  We received a reply from Alan Sevison, the Assistant Attorney General in Utah, stating he could only help us if we had a complaint of abuse.  Unfortunately, Utah does not consider these activities to be abuse.  Apparently Oregon has the same view, and that is why these two states are such a haven for the WT business.  Redcliff claims that the law allows them to accept a child with the permission of a single parent or guardian.  They say they are under no obligation to recognize the legal rights of any other parent.  Their own contract contradicts this, but my husband could hardly force them to comply with an agreement he never entered into with them.  The state licensors would do nothing to help us.  They are only there to make sure Redcliff meets their requirements with regard to the health and safety of the kids.  I?m not sure their task is even achievable, given the nature and logistics of Redcliff.  How do you pop in unexpectedly somewhere in the midst of a 650 square mile wilderness?  

I haven?t bashed Redcliff.  I haven?t made damaging claims.  I HAVE STATED FACT.  If stating our factual experience is damaging, they should rethink their policies.  I?m sure Redcliff is aware of the things I have said.  I would invite them to contact me, and I would be thrilled to have the opportunity to address this with Steve Nadauld (or any of his associates), as he ended any dialogue some time ago by refusing to accept or return phone calls, and has not responded to certified mail.  He made it clear my husband had NO rights whatsoever.  A father?s right to see or even speak to his own son was superceded by the arrogant rights of a profitable business entity.  If they feel I have stated anything that is not 100% true, I invite their rebuttal.  I would love to hear them publicly justify accepting a child against the wishes of his father who had joint legal custody, with an application and contract that had more red flags than Tiananmen Square, against the recommendation of the child?s psychologist (whom they never even bothered to contact).  

I have not left out ?unflattering facts?.  I have hid nothing.  Frankly, the implication confuses me.  You strongly feel that you did everything you could to help your son.  You feel you utilized Redcliff as a last resort when all other options had been exhausted.  You are comfortable that after 100 days in the wilderness, your son has changed and has a new lease on life.  You have made this determination after spending a few days with him, and from phone calls you receive from him at school.  I seriously hope to God that you are right.  I want to believe this every bit as much as you do.  It hurts me to think of the kids who have lost precious time from their lives to this industry.  But in actuality you can?t possibly know until he is back with your family, interacting on a daily basis.  

By the way, did Redcliff come through with any of the academic credit they claim to offer?  The things they sent us were absolutely ridiculous, and I?m sure the local school board is still laughing that we would even present it to them for consideration.

My goal is to educate parents about our experience.  We felt like we were living in a communist country, or unable to wake up from a nightmare.  We worried that he would never be able to forgive us for being unable to help him.  It nearly killed us.  Our circumstances were different from yours.  Obviously Redcliff treated us differently than they did you and your family.  They denied a father access to his son, and somehow felt justified in doing so.  Any parents who are considering such a placement need to determine whether a facility has the INTEGRITY they should expect and demand from anyone who would be charged with helping their child.  They have to know their rights won?t be violated, and their family won?t be exploited.  Parents should share their experiences and support each other.  Otherwise we will all be at the mercy of carefully scripted websites and advertisements, designed to prey on the desperation of frightened parents.  And ultimately our children will pay the price if we aren?t thorough and diligent.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Mykidsmom

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« Reply #174 on: January 16, 2006, 09:29:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-16 14:11:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

"In all fairness, the tone in her responses matches the tone of the posts she is replying to.

 

I can understanding the family moving. I grew up in a small town where everyone knows everyone. People get pidgeonholed at an early age and it is almost impossible to change the community's perception. I hated it.



I question the methods these programs use. I also question that her son could go from foul mouthed, violent, drug dealer, meth addict, to model citizen just by attending one. I think his exploits may be exaggerated, but I was not there.



But, if he is doing okay, then he is doing okay. I don't believe brainwashing works, not for long. So if he has changed, he has decided to change.



That is the rub for me. It's the part where they break the teenagers. I don't think it is moral, humane, or effective. It is dangerous and harmful."


Thanks Atomic Ant -- my tone was meant to do exactly that -- match the tone of the posts I was replying to as well as the communication skills of those to whom I was responding.  Funny how you all react to being attacked in the same way as you attack others....very interesting!

It seems that anyone with any other point of view than the one that is popular here is attacked.

That is why other reasonable people give up and move on.. which is really too bad because it ends up being very one sided and not very interesting or informative.

From many of the quotes and signatures that posters use I can see that this site is not exactly mainstream -- too bad because lack of reasonable discussion discredits your cause.

Thanks for the invitation to let you know how it goes but I'm sure that if I had anything positive to say then you would find some way to attack that as well so it really isn't worth the trouble. :wave:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #175 on: January 16, 2006, 10:21:00 PM »
Excuse me....
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #176 on: January 16, 2006, 10:24:00 PM »
Excuse me ....
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #177 on: January 16, 2006, 10:29:00 PM »
You're standing on my neck. Step off, please. Thank you.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #178 on: February 16, 2006, 04:52:00 PM »
i went through RCA and yea sure there is some bullshit that goes on there but atleast the staff arent like my experiences with juvies or state run institutions where staff really dont care; i mean shit, they dont fucking throw you into walls for moving in line or looking at them "smart". Kids at the Youth Center used to get broken noses and scars up and down their faces while being 'restrained' for trivial things. Though i do admit Redcliff was a hellofalot more extreme than any other bootcamp or instituion ive been to in that there is real physical and mental strains that you wont find else where (i went 2 1/2 months eating rice and lentils with no spices at all because i couldnt get two sticks to produce a flame-- and without fire you cant get past phase 1, thus wont graduate, thus stuck in a depression purgatory like state) and the fact that you are in the middle of nowhere, you dig holes with sticks, wipe your ass with bark, and go out and strip when its 0 degrees out and wash yourself (always wash your body first, your hair will freeze), RCA and privately owned 'behavioral health' institutions still are just nicer holding cells for the rich and middleclass youth of america. Fuck eating ramen noodles and canned potatoes for months and months after i graduated just to make ends meet from the 30,000 dollar deficit my mom had isnt a good trade off for a couple of months where i was out of trouble (6 months after grad camp, im got arrested and 2 years later am still on intensive probation for my misdeeds--so no, $30,000 isnt worth a life time but merely a few fuckign months and some chest hair)

-----David "White Falcon"
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #179 on: February 16, 2006, 07:21:00 PM »
It took my son 4 weeks to get fire but to this day it is one of his proudest accomplishments... maybe that is sad to say but it is true.

It was the first thing he wanted to show us when we got there.  

But then maybe he is a different kind of kid because he wants to go back as staff as soon as he turns 19.  He loved it...

He did say that it was the most extreme of the wilderness programs in that it was the most physically demanding -- but that is something that he is proud of cause he made it!

He hiked over 400 miles in the 104 days he was there and says he misses it...

Time will tell -- I stopped even posting to this site because if you have a different take on anything you get beat up pretty bad.

I'm interested in if you ever became really engaged in the program -- if you did what caused you to relapse?  Also if you don't mind -- what could your parents have done that would have helped you when you were in height of your issues...

I value your insight and experience.

Thanks
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