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Topics - FueLaw

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The Seed Discussion Forum / Should some distinctions be made ?
« on: December 09, 2005, 02:12:00 PM »
It seems to me some distinctions should be made in reagrds to how the Seed effected people. Based on post from folks like John Underwood, Landyh, and some the original people in the program, the original Seed was way different than it was for me. My time frame is May '73-July '74. The Seed as I experienced it was different than the others that came after me. The Seed from 1990 on, as described by others posting on this board, was completely different than the other time periods.

The point I am trying to make is the Seed changed over time and any individual experience was clearly dependent on how the Seed was during their relevant time period. In other words the front row experience for Underwood, Landyh & others was completely different and unique from mine. Even Underwood, in a post, acknowledges the Seed changed over time and as it grew it developed more and more rules, policies and things of this nature.

There are several other factors I believe are also critical in our individual experience. They are your age when you went in and whether or not you were in voluntarily or not.

Based on reading the board for about 3 years it seems to me the older you were the better you were able to handle the Seed. Maybe that is a function of age, maturity, better understanding of life,, or just how to play the game, ect..., I was 14 when I went in I clearly did not have the life experience as someone who was 7-10 years older. The Seed to me was a brutal brutal nightmare. In addition I was forced to go in the Seed. In other words I did not want to be there. Because I was not voluntary the Seed had to force themselves on me and I resented it and resisted it to the best of my ability.

Having read and considered many post, who views are different than mine, it appears to me that the common thread among most of the people who reflect back at their time in the Seed in a positive light were that they were older and there on a voluntary basis. Depending on their involvement with drugs, and other paralell issues, they benefited in ways that others couldn't.

As far as the Seed being a cult or not it really doesn't matter. (I happen to believe it clearly was) Just because it is or is not a cult doesn't preclude people for wanting to be a part of it and enjoying there experience in it.  At this point and time , 30 + years down the road, does it really matter?

With respect to rehabs I think adults can put themselves into any type of rehab they like. Cult or not. However, I will always be opposed to taking teenagers and forcing them to go through this kind of treatment.

One of the reasons we will alwys argue and disagree about our Seed experience it that we are not even really arguing over the same thing. The Seed was different for each of us based in large part on the factors I previously mentioned. [ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-12-09 11:16 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / How did your program end ?
« on: November 26, 2005, 02:52:00 PM »
This is really an off shoot of the "Why did you stay away" thread.

For me I was in the 5 month (on average, program length was double if you were sent by court) program for 13 1/2 months. I had one refresher and one start over. I started at Tropical Park and then went to Broward (SR 84) when Barker got chicken shit and left Dade.

For about the first 8+ months I fought the program like a motherfucker. That was the reason for the refresher and start over. I didn't like the Seed and I was angry at the world for being in there. I knew it was all a bunch of shit by I had no real way of fighting it. I was 14 years old, 5'0" and weighed about 95 lbs.

After I got started over , I was away from home for 36 days the last time. I was then on the phase where you go to school but come in after school everyday and all day on weekends. I almost failed 10th grade due to excessive absences.

I then became an old comer and thats pretty much when my program ended. I continued going to the Seed my required week nights and one weekend day but I basically stopped participating in anything and everyting. I was rarely called on in group and most of the time a staff member would let me do bathroom sign in or some other worthless endeavor to kill off the time. It was weird I didn't fight them and they didn't fight me. Sort of a like an unwritten truce.

This goes on for about 5 months and I had putting my name in for graduation. (Remember in those days you had to sign in for graduation or to become an old comer ect...) I am being a good kid and not making waves but still not being graduated. I made great grades in school which saved me from failing. Nobody said anything to me and I was too scared to ask staff anything.  

Then my parents after over 13 months finally started becoming a little tired off all the games but for some reason I had to graduate I couldn't just quit going.  Most of my friends had graduated or quit the program. I was a real life old timer at the age of 15.

On July 4, 1974 my parents scheduled a meeting with staff concerning my status. We arrived at our appointed time and waited until Penny (the black lady who could realy sing) meet with us. I was almost as scared then as I was on my intake interview. The meeting was somewhat awkward as my parents began firing away at Penny as to why I had not been graduated when other seemingly less deserving kids did.  She had no answers and my parents became even more aggreessive demanding to know how my continued participation was going to benefit me. The basically told Penny that they thought I had gotten enough out of the program and that I should be graduated. Penny sat stunned and almost didn't know what to say.

In retrospect I guess staff was not used to being challenged specially on what the program was doing for a particular kid. Penny then conceded that she was not in position to make a decision on this matter and that it would be up to John Underwood. She left the room and we waited for Underwood. It must have been about 10-15 minutes but it seemed like hours then. While waiting for Underwood I'll concede I was as nervous as a whore in church. If things went well I got my long awaited freedom if not it was back to the group but this time having really challenged the staff in regards to the purpose of the program. In other words I was really scared of this meeting backfiring on me.

Underwood gets to the meeting and greets my parents and even smiles at me. My father had always liked Underwood the most of any staff member, and even to this day will swear by Underwood but not by Barker, Libby or anyone else. He felt Underwood was a straight shooter and would level with him. Things could not have gone better for me. My father told Underwood that they believed I had got all I could from the program and Underwood actually agreed. I almost fainted. The discussion then turned to the manner in which I would be graduated. Underwood told me I would not graduate that day because it would not look right to graduate under these circumstances. I wasn't going to argue, just knowing this ordeal would end soon was enough for me.

The meeting concludes a few minutes later with my parents leaving and me heading back to the group. It was one of the few times Underwood said something nice to me. He congratulated me and sticking it out and never quiting.

A few days later I arrive late to the evening meeting and did not put my name on the list to graduate. I was disappointed but resigned to the fact that I would have to go to a few more meetings. At the end of the meeting Libby who was leading the rap that night calls out my name and I nervously stand up. She then announces I graduated and the whole place goes into applause. I get to yell out "We sing jingle bells..." and the meeting ends. I shake hands with a number of people and leave the SR 84 facilty for the last time.

To this day I remember feeling an overwhelming feeling of relief. Knowing that I did not have to go back to the group another day was an awesome feeling. Not having to ask permission to go to the store or a footabll game was also a relief. I was finally free and I really didn't know how to feel.

The reason I didn't go back is that there was nothing for me to go back to. I never realy felt like I was a part of the group or that I belonged in the group. I knew it was all a bunch of shit but I was just glad my own personal nightmare and hell was ending. I was so happy and relieved to be gone I had no desire to return. Leaving for me was easy. The old timers meetings were nothing but a bunch of bs and I wasn't go to go if I did not have to. [ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-11-26 12:00 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / Another note to John Underwood
« on: September 20, 2005, 11:24:00 PM »
Keep on posting. The more you post the more you expose yourself as a phoney and fraud. You are truely clueless.

The Seed Discussion Forum / In Re : Physical Abuse v. Psychological Abuse
« on: September 11, 2005, 10:08:00 AM »
Unfortunately the postings about physical abuse have been taken out of context. I am not trying to say that the physical abuse of the kids in the program was a cornerstone of the program. In addition I am not insinuating that it occured on a regular basis. However, I am saying that it happend. Any former staff member who denies this is simply not telling the truth.

From time to time kids would try to bolt. The were physically restrained and in some cases literally dragged back to the group or to the offices and then to the group. I can remember seeing kids get half way across the race track, at Tropical Park race track, and then dragged back forcefully.

Other times kids parents were brought in to beat or disipline their kids. This happend in the offices away from the group. As I indicated in other post because I was a small guy I would be assigned to bathroom sign in, as oppossed to sitting at a regular security post or door, and I could hear, not see, the beatings. There were blood curdling screams coming from the offices.

On other occassions staff members simply lost their cool and racked up a kid. I am not saying they broke any bones or caused permanent physical damage. In my particular case I was physically tackled to the ground,held down by Robert Chun and a staffer named Mike, and had my hair cut, while screaming, crying and kicking, by a female staff member. This occured at Tropical Park. Chun also knocked the crap out of me a few times at SR 84.  John Underwood also would do crap like twist me by the ears , or grab me by the back of the neck, and physically drag me from the group. He never punched me in the mouth or broke any bones.

Having said all that, it is basically irrelevant to this discussion. The real harm of the Seed, Straight and others that followed was the psychological harm. This was a thousand times worse than being slapped around a little or being bounced off a few walls. The psychological damage last forever. That is what draws people to this website.

The whole notion or premise of the Seed and other copy cat programs is so ill concieved, in terms of the pyschological dimensions, that it is mind boggling. The "one size fits all" or "this is the way to straighten out kids/young adults" approach is a farce. Everybody is different but the Seed didnt take that approach. It was a "CULT" in every sense of the word. Everybody had to buy into to the same shit or face the fury of the staff and group. As a 14-15 year old, my age when in the program, this had a dramtic and profound effect on my life. Being in the program over a year didnt help much either. Why Underwood and others cant see it is beyond comprehension.

While I realize it will never happen, but I would bet a legitimate psychological study would reveal a high level of some kind of post traumatic stress symtoms among the young participants of the Seed. In other words alot of the psychological damage didnt rear its ugly head until years later. The participants probably needed more help after they completed the program than prior to their entry in it.

[ This Message was edited by:  on 2005-09-11 07:11 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / Note to John Underwood
« on: August 07, 2005, 08:39:00 PM »
First, I will give you credit for having the guts to post on this website.

However, some of the stuff you said simply is not true. I was physically beaten by you and Robert Chun in 1973 and 1974 in the Seed. The beatings took place at the old Tropical Park Race track facility and on State Road 84. When interviewed by a reporter several years ago Chun admitted it when confronted with the allegations.

In addition to being physically beaten you also tried to mentally destroy me on a number of occassions. You were not qualified to do what you were doing. You had no training, and like many of you colleagues on staff, were way more pathetic than the people you were attempting to help.

The Seed was based on a bunch of lies and falacies. Low rent maggots, such as yourself, perpretrated those lies on our parents and anyone else who would actually listen to your garbage. Our parents were scared and the slime that was on staff played on their fears. Most of us were to young to defend ourselves. The ones who fought, such as myself, paid dearly. If I knew then what I now know about the law I would own your worthless ass forever.

You can say whatever you want about what you and the other scumbags who were on staff did during your years in the Seed but the bottom line is that you were more full of shit than almost any human being who ever trod the face of the earth.You had an ego the size of the Grand Canyon. Nothing that you and Art Barker predicted would happen ever came to pass. Whenever a government entity or newspaper investigated the Seed, gutless cowards such as yourself and Barker, ran for cover.

I found the parts of your post very humorous. Prticularly the part about you and the other imcompetent morons thinking that Straight was dangerous. I guess a bunch of fried out junkies trying to pretend they knew what they were doing, and running a rehab, was completely safe.

[ This Message was edited by:  on 2005-08-07 17:51 ]

I was never in Straight I was in the Seed, which as most of you know existed before Straight. I read your board every now and then but never post here. I am an attorney and practice in Miami. Please accept some free legal advice. Don't submit an Affidavit.

To begin with they are legally worthless. This is because the confrontation clause, in the United States Constitution, allows the other side to confront their accuser. This is true in civil or criminal court. In order for an affidavit to be admissible in a legal proceeding you would have to appear for a deposition or at trial and let the other side cross examine you as to the contents of the affidavit. If you don't want to be a witness don't submit an affidavit.

Furthermore, if you come forward as a witness this opens you up for impeachment. In other words the Semblers or anybody can investigate and whatever mud they dig up can be used against you in court. This is true whether you are a party or a witness. If you don't want all your personal business put in to a public record don't sign an affidavit.

In addition you need to keep in mind that the Statute of Limitations is long gone for any kind of legal recourse. This is true for any civil or criminal recourse. Nothing bad is legally going to happen to any of the scumbags who were administrators at Straight.

This brings me to my point.  Some of you are being duped. The people who are encouraging you to sign the affidavits have some kind of alterior motive for do so. I am not a mind reader so I won't speculate as to their true motives. However, I am a lawyer and I know the reasons given to you are bs because the affidavits can't be used in a legal setting.  

You also need to keep in mind that once you hand over these affidavits you have no control over who views them and for what use they will be put to. They can be used for any purpose to advance others agenda. Maybe you agree in full or in part with their agenda maybe you don't. But once you give them the affidavits God only knows where they will wind up or what they will be used for.

As I stated in the beggining of this post I have been to a similar program as most of you. I spent 13 1/2 months in the Seed.  I understand your pain and what you went through. We all have fantasies or ideas that somehow, someday we will get even with our tormentors. Unfortunately , in terms of legal recourse, the time has past. Please don't allow yourself to be used by others to further their own agendas. Don't be swayed by their rhetoric or scare tactics or even their promises of legal grandeur.

I wish all you the best and I hope this message is well taken.

[ This Message was edited by: fuelaw on 2002-12-08 18:15 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / In Re: The Seed and their Successes
« on: July 23, 2002, 09:34:00 PM »
In response to the thread below in regards to the Seed actually helping some people. I would agree that the seed probably did benifit some of it's participant's. The problem with the seeds approach was that they believed that one size fit all. That certainly isn't true. In addition Art Barker used to boast of 90% success rates. His real rate was probably closer to 20%. For those 20% who actually got help , good for them, and god bless them. What about the other 80% who got little or nor help ? What about the others who got psycologically damaged by those bastards ?  Any program that screws up 80 people to help 20 is pure garbage in my book.

I realize some of the people who attended the seed have accomplished alot in their lives since leaving or graduating the program. I would also venture to guess that most of the people who achieved success don't attribute Ark Barker for it. Like Marni's brother I became a lawyer and my father likes to think that the seed had something to do with it. I think he does this to justify putting me in there so many years ago. He likes to think it really did me some good. I always correct him when we have these conversations. Any success I have enjoyed is not because of Art Barker or the seed it is inspite of it or because I survived it.

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