A cult?

[BuzzKill]

//I just don't pretend it's a being who favors me over anybody or anything else. //

I don't either.

//I think it's safe to say he's being facetious//

Maybe so. But he did also say he prayed about the broken down car. How bout it Niles - ya joken around or being serious?

//How can anything interfere w/ the plan or will of an omnipotent being?//

It can't. But no one said His plan was being interfered with.  I said tormenting teens was not His plan. I was pointing out something that isn't; not what is, God's will. Part of the will of God for every person is to allow them to function with their own free will - which means they must be able to chose evil, even if it isn't what He would want them to do. The power of God is unaffected by what any individual might decide. His plan for the redemption of His creation is unaffected.  His ability to intervene is unaffected.

There is another side to this suffering thing tho - I do think God can use our suffering to teach us and strengthen us - and so while sin and suffering are not God's will for us, He can use it to Bless us and make us better persons, a blessing to those around us. One example of this would be Corrie Ten Boon's suffering at the hands of Nazi Germany. You won't see many examples of greater suffering, or greater blessing resulting from it, than this little lady's story.

[Angola Cheeba]

Actually, humans had a chance at "heaven" on earth wiht eden correct? Oh yeah and women screwed that up and now we have intense excruciatin pain when we bring life into this world as our punishment right? And all human kind was brought into destruction by eve right? Cuz of her sin?  :roll:  
Not Buying It!

Amanda

[Angola Cheeba]

How do you know it was not his plan? Isnt this the same god who destroyed the earth in a flood because he was mad? Isnt this the same God who was to be feared and respected out of fear? I always remembered this god as being pretty, well, mean.
Amanda

[Angola Cheeba]

Everyone here who has been in a program has had to endure suffering. But is all suffering necesary to teach us the lessons we need to learn?

In fiddler on the roof, remember the main charachter when he was describing how he appreciated what he had, but would it be disturbing some grand plans to give him a little wealth and prosperity and less trials?  

Sure you can learn from suffering. I learned never to spank a child after my step mom beat us all the time and intimidated us with bull whips. I learned how not to act. But I would have learned that by her showing me a good example as well. It wasnt necessary for me to endure (and still endure) years and years of mental and physical abuse.

Amanda

[Angola Cheeba]

Has anyone here seen Joseph Campbell:The Heros Journey?

I found it informative on this very topic. It speaks of how myth plays out in our lives, and how religion is very much a myth. Even if you dotn beleive that is so, go to your local library and check it out and tell me what you think about it.
Amanda[ This Message was edited by: Angola Cheeba on 2005-05-23 21:17 ]

[BuzzKill]

//Not Buying It! //

And you don't have to. That is you exercising your free will.

[BuzzKill]

//And all human kind was brought into destruction by eve right? //

No, not so.
There were consequences to Adam and Eve's decision to trust the liar over God; but it wasn't their destruction. Nor mine, or many, many millions of others.

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-05-23 21:03:00, Angola Cheeba wrote:

"Actually, humans had a chance at "heaven" on earth wiht eden correct? Oh yeah and women screwed that up and now we have intense excruciatin pain when we bring life into this world as our punishment right? And all human kind was brought into destruction by eve right? Cuz of her sin?  :silly:  :wave:

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
--Denis Diderot, French encyclopedist

[BuzzKill]

Point taken!

And yet. . .
Consider the animals - They do have labor - but it doesn't appear to pain them unless there is some kind of problem.

[Nihilanthic]

I think the funniest thing is that we've all refuted until we're blue in the face, and we all know that no matter what we say, Karen will have some jsutification or reply that suits her qualifications (although probably not our own or anyone whose not religious and wanting to stay that way) and thats that.

She believes because she believes. Belief 'just because' is fine until you hurt others.

Just Becausers come out of, and run, programs all the time. I'm done with this thread. Although, I am amazed this is almost as long as my damn answers thread (which I need to resurrect sometime :grin:)

No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats---approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
--Lazlo's Chinese Relativity Axiom:

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-05-24 09:48:00, BuzzKill wrote:

"Point taken!



And yet. . .

Consider the animals - They do have labor - but it doesn't appear to pain them unless there is some kind of problem.



"

Actually that's not true.  I've seen a few horses and a few cows give birth, none had any complications and it quite obviously hurt.  I think they're just a whole lot better at dealing with pain than we are.  When one of my dogs was about 2 she broke her leg, badly.  Joe Theisman kind of bad.  I know it hurt like hell but she never made a sound.

Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked,  and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that  the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque  self-deception."  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0517150735/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger, 1916, Ch.9

[Antigen]

Eve was framed!

In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller

[Anonymous]

So, if it was their decision, then it was those two that brought it on. But you have to admit women are not portrayed as important or even really good in the bible. That reflects the time the were in, but i dont believe we live in that time anymore. And I dont think a woman should follow a religion that still follows that mentality. Like my cousin goes to a Baptist church and you arent allowed to go in if you are a woman and if you arent wearing a skirt. Blah to that. And blah to any religion that spreads fear and spawns hateful people because of its docterine. I appreciate that you believe what you do. I think you are entitled to that. However, I just cant follow somethign that crude. So I guess Ive said all I can and im done too. Thanks for listening.
Amanda

[Anonymous]

amen to that Ginger!

[BuzzKill]

//I've seen a few horses and a few cows give birth, none had any complications and it quite obviously hurt.//

I'd say myself, that the animals I have sat with seemed more anxious than in pain - but maybe it's the relative quickness of the uncomplicated birth for most animals that makes it seem easy by comparison.

Dogs  - gotta love 'em.
I once had a Gordon setter, with a joint disorder that is painful - and she used to embarrasses me screaming her head off when it hurt. People would come out of their houses to see who was killing the dog! She'd take a wrong step fall over and start screaming. I had it operated on and fixed. Another little dog got hit by a car and also did a lot of screaming. But he wasn't so bad off really, and had a full and complete recovery. I also once had a Beagle who would scream and cry loudly every time he got a bath - but I don't think it really hurt anything other than his dignity. But our old Boxer dog - she would tolerate great pain and never do more than wyne softly and wait for help. Dogs are as different as people from one another.

Niles, I think you're being unfair, accusing me of being a 'just becauser', Just because you don't like my responses. I have given reasons for why I believe what I believe. I don't think I have once said - just because.

// But you have to admit women are not portrayed as important or even really good in the bible. //

No, I do not have to admit this, nor agree with it. I don't believe its true. There are many Biblical women who are shown to have great courage and virtue and resourcefulness and tremendous value. Off the top of my head:
Debra, Ruth, Esther (my favorite old testament history, is the book of Esther)Sara and Rachael and Hagar, and Bathsheba, The Queen of Sheba; In the New Testament you have several Marys and Martha and the woman at the well, and the woman with Faith.
Yes, they lived in a patriarchal society but they were very much valued and important persons.