ALA??

[Anonymous]

amazing how a few scriptures can stir such foul language and hate.  And who says Viva is doing so well now?  Anyone heard from anyone that knows the truth lately?  Those refered to posts are quite old!

[Anonymous]

T.  Remember there are two sides to every story.  You have heard one.  And when they lie to you about simple fact, how can you trust that when they talk to you about opinions and feelings that they are truthful?  I KNOW "VIVA" has no living biological grandmothers and that both her adopted grandmothers stand with her parents.  Whoever you spoke to was not honest about their relationship to the child.

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-10 14:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Viva" cannot give you answers to your questions, as she is biased against the program.

The difference being that "Viva" has actually been in that program whereas you have not.

sunday school: A prison in which children do penance for the evil conscience of their parents.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher

[Nihilanthic]

On 2005-04-11 04:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

"amazing how a few scriptures can stir such foul language and hate.  And who says Viva is doing so well now?  Anyone heard from anyone that knows the truth lately?  Those refered to posts are quite old!"

Scripture didnt "stir such foul hate" it wast hate asinine church lady spewing sheer unadulterated STUPIDITY.

Using scripture to be a fucking idiot is a good way to piss me off. Using religion to be a moron or to hurt people really pisses Cidsa off. But hey, evin the devil could quote scripture for his purposes. In the end it comes down to what people DO and why they do it, not just what they talk about.

I'm here to help people. I'd wager that church lady is just finding an outlet for her desire to cling to kids and keep them around forever.

Dont fall for "scripture" pissing us off. This bitch butting in where she is not wanted and doesnt belong is what made us mad. Trying to play the god-card just made it worse.

Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
--Rep. Robert L. Henry, TX December 22, 1914 (quoting Lincoln)

[Anonymous]

If you want to sound half way intelligent, try a little less "stupid" language.  It appears that you only want the opinions of those that agree with you.  That is not everyone.  I appreciate your "church lady" giving a different opinion and respect her right to do so.  Her writing is much less offensive because it contains no profanity.  You are helpling no one with that kind of talk.  You only make yourself look like an uneducated, foul mouth kid that has nothing to offer but opinions and no facts.

[Anonymous]

by the way whatever happened to Barton, the one that started this post?  Find your neice?  What facility did she end up in?

[Timoclea]

On 2005-04-11 04:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

"amazing how a few scriptures can stir such foul language and hate.  And who says Viva is doing so well now?  Anyone heard from anyone that knows the truth lately?  Those refered to posts are quite old!"

Yes, I stay in contact with Viva and her grandmother and I know exactly how she's doing, both the ups and the downs.

She is acting like an 18 year old girl who has been betrayed by her adoptive parents, stuck in a private prison in a third world country run by religious fanatics, lost her senior year in said hellhole, and is finally out and free and doesn't have to be afraid of being sent back.

She is reacting like a normal person in an intense grieving process---grieving the ripping away of the last of her childhood, grieving the betrayal by people she thought loved her, and grieving the sudden loss of a lot of childhood's illusions.

This is the first time she's been free to grieve those losses, and the biggest predictable thing about grieving people is that they're unpredictable.

I saw the same thing in college---I *was* the same thing in college, to a lesser extent because my parents and my experience of betrayal was less severe---among students whose parents had been very controlling and authoritarian reacting to *finally* being out from under the parental thumb.

All of them settled down in a year to six months.

She's grieving.  She's going through the process.  As long as she doesn't get "stuck" in any particular part of that process, she'll come through it and when she comes out the other side of it she'll be fine.

She's an adult, and what she's going through now is, considering what she's been through, a necessary part of growing up.  Better that she go through it now and deal with her grief and get it out of the way than repress it all and go through it later when it will do more damage to her budding adult life.

So yes, I know exactly how she's doing, and I understand it as well as anyone can who hasn't been through the same traumas and grieving process.

In my opinion, you're judging her too soon, and you're judging her harshly because you're rooting for her to fall flat on her face so that you can say, "I told you so!"

The grieving process, as long as you go ahead and go through it and don't get "stuck" in one part of it---like repressing it---takes six months to a year.

I'm betting that once she finishes grieving her various losses, Viva will be just fine.

And I think you should be ashamed of yourself for rejoicing at everything you can point to as bad or unfortunate in this woman's life.  You disgust me.  And I expect you digust Jesus as well and are disappointing him greatly in your lack of human charity.

Timoclea

Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist

[Timoclea]

On 2005-04-11 06:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"T.  Remember there are two sides to every story.  You have heard one.  And when they lie to you about simple fact, how can you trust that when they talk to you about opinions and feelings that they are truthful?  I KNOW "VIVA" has no living biological grandmothers and that both her adopted grandmothers stand with her parents.  Whoever you spoke to was not honest about their relationship to the child."

Oh, baloney.  I know the simple facts, I was abbreviating for the sake of not having to drag out a long and involved discussion that has been covered over and over again on Fornits.

You are just as bad as you claim I am in not mentioning that they are Viva's *adoptive* parents, that she was not adopted as a baby, that her dad parented her until he died, and that her biological mother, as far as I remember, is still alive although she's had various difficulties in her life.

The people I spoke to were perfectly honest about the relationship, and in that they didn't gild the hard parts of the truth, pretty darned honest about what they were going through, in my opinion.

I don't *care* what her parents' "side" of the story is unless they can produce a birth certificate proving she is not yet 18 years old.

She is an adult.  What she does is her business, and her problem to deal with.  I don't know any adult who hasn't had both their own trials and triumphs along the way.

I repeat, your habit of rooting for this girl to fail in life disgusts me.  You should be ashamed.

She's an adult.  Whatever she may or may not have done as a child or teenager is a moot point now.  Her parents could claim she's a former gang member who worked for a chop shop stealing cars and I'd shrug.  She is responsible for her behavior *now*---and there's just not enough time since she turned eighteen for her to have developed a track record, and what there is of the track record is entirely understandable based on her having been stuck in ALA.

I repeat, your leaping forward to judge Viva and your clear rooting for her to fail in life and go crawling back to people you in your Godlike exalted and perfect judgement approve of is absolutely disgusting.

Ask me a year and a half from now what I think of Viva and I'll give you my preliminary thoughts, presuming she stays in touch, as I hope she does.  I also wish her only the best---unlike you.

I think people do much better in life, in general, when we assume they're going to be good people and hope for the best for them.

It's called "charity"---you should try it some time.

Timoclea

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor

[Timoclea]

On 2005-04-11 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"If you want to sound half way intelligent, try a little less "stupid" language.  It appears that you only want the opinions of those that agree with you.  That is not everyone.  I appreciate your "church lady" giving a different opinion and respect her right to do so.  Her writing is much less offensive because it contains no profanity.  You are helpling no one with that kind of talk.  You only make yourself look like an uneducated, foul mouth kid that has nothing to offer but opinions and no facts."

Nihilanthic has been completely open and above board about having Aspergers.

If he sometimes comes on a little strong, anyone who's been paying attention to it knows the reason and makes reasonable allowances, reading the meat of what he says and taking that as his contribution to the discussion.

He does sometimes come on a little strong, but it's not his fault.

(I'm not pretending to be perfect, I'm not perfect either, and I have my own problems to deal with.)

His tone doesn't negate the often very real merit of many of his observations.

Reasonable people make reasonable allowances.

It's called "charity."

I think Viva's parents made a bad decision, because I think based on their behavior here that the ALA people are flaky and shouldn't be running a facility to "treat" anyone--they can barely function their ownselves.

I don't know what help she may have or may not have needed, but the ALA people weren't the place to get it.  Given the State Department's advisory on facilities outside the US, placing her in a third world country was flat irresponsible.

The difference between their behavior and hers is that she was a kid and reasonable adults expect kids to make mistakes.

They were adults---and not just in their twenties and wet behind the ears.  Her adoptive parents, regardless of anything else that may or may not be true about them, were old enough to know better.

They may *otherwise* be good people, but they made some serious errors of judgement in placing her---and they were old enough to know better.

She has a right to be upset and grieved about that, and wouldn't be human if she weren't having to go through dealing with that and coming to terms with it now.

I don't judge her parents as bad people---but I do judge that as a very poor decision, by people who should have known better.

Timoclea

There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)

[Nihilanthic]

On 2005-04-11 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"If you want to sound half way intelligent, try a little less "stupid" language.  It appears that you only want the opinions of those that agree with you.  That is not everyone.  I appreciate your "church lady" giving a different opinion and respect her right to do so.  Her writing is much less offensive because it contains no profanity.  You are helpling no one with that kind of talk.  You only make yourself look like an uneducated, foul mouth kid that has nothing to offer but opinions and no facts."

Ok, I repect anyones right to voice an OPINION, anon.

However, I give no respect for some brainwashed over-religious cunt whose spewing dogma and putting down a child for freeing herself from a program and getting fine on her own, and insisting on the grounds of her RELIGION (which is faith only, theres no logical or rational reason for viva to go back to her parents or the program) that she go back to her mother and/or the program.

Her writing is VERY offensive to me, baghead. What shes saying in so many words is "I'm a stupid bitch who cant think for herself so I'm going to cling to my parents theology and spew it out like the selfrightous twit that I am, living in my bubble world where children are chattel to their parents".

Dont like it, TOUGH SHIT! Get the fuck off the forum and go back to your stupid little bubble-world with church lady. Using this PC bullshit to excuse this bitch and her 'faith' is ridiculous.

I allow people to disagree with me, but waht you fail to realize is she does not, especially if its a kid or it clashes with her faith. She needs to realize that her faith is ONLY THAT, FAITH. Rationally, sir, its inseperable from a fairytale.

I dont really want to step on everyones toes about their religion becuase I honestly just dont give a damn. However, if their religion makes them act like this "church lady" and its used as a reason to castigate a program/parental abandonment survivor such as Amanda who clearly is doing *FINE*, and should not be compelled to return to Craig's little davidian compound waiting to happen or her hsitty parents, then I'm going to get a little pissy.

You can believe in whatever makes you happy. However, if your BELIEFS make you hurt people, sorry, but reality comes before your little fairytales.

Also, I have tons of facts, and tons of opinions. I am foul mouthed but I'm also 20 so I can do whatever the hell I want except buy alcohol. And while we're on the fact vs opinion thing, lemme make one thing clear: faith, dogma, and the like, are ALL OPINIONS. They are NOT facts. A fact would be like "Jesus was a living human being". An opinion would be if he was the son of god or ascended into heaven or whatnot. If it offends you... well, tough. Time to grow up!

If you still think I'm uneducated despite the fact that I actually show grammar, syntax, and a vocabulary, use a computer fluently, and helped create http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens, am in college, fix my car and computer myself, and are actually able to forumulate an arguement and present it to you (albeit with a bit of indignation) then you should find another, less trite insult to use against me. :grin:

Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
--Edward Everett

[Nihilanthic]

Timoclea - whether or not I have AS (and thats been seriously questioned since I've gone to the autism society here, they think I merely have SPD, which is a linguistic delay similar to symptoms of aspergers syndrome) or not, I'm still entitled to be as brash or polite as I please.

Thanks for defending me, but its unwanted, and unneeded.

I dont feel any love or respect for that church lady or her defenders. I dont feel any love for people who use a fairy tale to allow her to treat Amanda like that, or any child, or shove their dogma down peoples throats. I also had the not-so-secret ulterior motive of scaring her back to her little bubble world way from here. Shes a troll, shes an annoyance, and her presence is utterly useless.

Also, I just felt like bitching her out. I may be young but I'm not a child and made a conscious choice to be foul-mouthed. If they want to ignore my VERY pertinent statement and instead dodge and try to insult me and my choice of words, let them. Theyre just showing how utterly weak they are. They cant argue against what I have to say so they shoot down HOW I say it.

Besides, I'd rather them whine about my language then spew more scripture and make it take longer to scroll down each page  :lol:

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.  
-- E. Grebenik

[Timoclea]

You're right, Niles.  It was just an opportunity to comment to them about charity---the emotion rather than giving donations of stuff--that I didn't manage to pass up.

It just burns me up that it wasn't enough for these loonies to provide their "help" against her will, now that she's grown they want to stand back and watch, gleefully waiting for her to screw up.  Talk about pressure.  That's just warped, and sick.

T.

People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000051WYJ/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.

[Anonymous]

I guess I missed something.  Who is wanting her to fail?  I don't see that anywhere in anyone's posts?

[Deborah]

You've landed in an ongoing, but intermittent debate. There are some who resent Viva's (aka Amanda's) 'rebelliousness'. They appear to be waiting with baited breath for her to screw up. It appears they would be happy if that happened- the 'lord's way' of punishing her.
If you care to catch up:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#66033

[Anonymous]

I read, but still don't see anyone wanting her to fail.  Just people wanting her to make good choices.  Throw God in and if she is one of His, then He will allow circumstances to draw her back.  I still don't see that as wanting her to fail.  Even one of your regular posters said something like that on the thread you connected me to.  I find it hard to believe ANYONE would want her to fail.  I guess you can tell I do believe in God.  I will pray for Amanda and her family.  I am sure they are all hurting and grieving over losses.  Hopefully, some day healing will happen for all those involved.