Author Topic: Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends  (Read 3505 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« on: April 07, 2005, 10:50:00 AM »
I don't want to dis the discussion going on under My Opinions. But the topic has changed from CCM to AA.

Any of you folks care to look over this site:
http://springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/

And comment on the similarities and differences between SCL and CCM?

If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2005, 02:08:00 PM »
My computer wont let me read it. Is there any way you could copy it or something so I can read what it is you are talking about?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2005, 07:20:00 PM »
Really? What sort of error are you getting? It's a pretty straightforward blog page.

Anyway, here's one entry.

Discovery and Focus
When you first arrive you start to hear about seminars. The seminars are repeated every few months, and Discovery is the first one you must attend. You are required to attend the first Discovery that comes up, whether it?s your second day or your second month; this depends on the timing of your arrival. You must pass seminars to progress in the program, and to progress further up the levels. This process takes about 18 months. Since I was just waiting out my time, I never took the seminars too seriously. But most kids did, they had to, they knew they had to pass them in order to progress, and they were not easy to get through. We heard rumors of trainers failing entire seminars, every single participant. We heard the names of trainers, of their different personalities and who was the best trainer to hope for.


The first time I went to a seminar, was the first time we had got to walk outside the confines of the compound in a few months, so it was rather exciting. The seminar was held in a big wooden barn about a quarter mile down the main road. It was a very isolated location. They had us all line up outside, there was a lot of us. There were lines of port potty?s for us to use while we were waiting or during the lunch break. My first seminar was in the middle of the winter, so there was a lot of snow. There were a bunch of nametags they were handing out, and it was a very busy and confusing situation.


Our anticipation grew and we wanted to get inside the building already. They started playing music inside the building, opened the doors and told us all we must be seated before the song ended. (Years later I heard the song again, recognized it, and found out the title. It is David Lanz?s ?Cristofori?s Dream?, a piano and violin duet.) There was a rush to sit down and get quiet before the song finished. There were several dozen chairs lined up on each side of the large room. The girls were on one side, the boys on the other. Seminars were the only time we would be anywhere near the girls.


There were two big paper writing boards set up in the front, with big permanent markers ready to write. There were posters all over the walls with small phrases such as, ?There are no accidents?. It was strange, to say the least. The seminars are a whirlwind of an experience. It?s hard to explain. The guy who was in charge was David Gilcrease, in the beginning of the seminar he was randomly walking around the room making people stand up, and then verbally humiliated them in front of the large crowd. He did it to me; he makes you stand up and then proceeds to ask you questions and humiliate you based on your nervous and confused responses. For a great detailed account of what a seminar is like, please click on the link to the right, ?Breaking the Vow of Silence?.


Discovery lasted for 3 days. The first day is spent mostly humiliating everyone, and pressing people for deep dark secrets. David Gilcrease spoke in the beginning about emotions. There was no substance to anything really, it seemed like mind games. It was common for him to put people on the spot, making you speak in front of everyone, and then he?d press you by screaming things like, ?you brought your self here!? or ?your parents don?t love you?. It seemed like he would do anything to illicit an intense, negative emotional response from anyone not already in an overly emotional state. Throughout the day the emotional tension builds and then through more games at night, for example, beating the floor with towels wrapped up with duct tape, are used to relieve the tension. Everyone is in their own world, it?s very strange. Then they make you stay up all night, at least until 3 or 4 am writing 10 pages or more of ?homework?, front and back, about your childhood, and why you are at Spring Creek.


The next day we turned in our homework, and the staff went to go review it all. Then we hear more talk from Gilcrease, and he explains they?re breaking us up into groups to evaluate each other. If you didn?t have any dark secrets revealed in your homework, and didn?t blame yourself completely for being at the facility, you were not being responsible. It seemed to me like Gilcrease wanted us to break down and admit it was 100% our own fault for being at Spring Creek. Any mention of your parents, he?d tear you down and make you admit something and then rub it in your face.


At one point he tells us the staff knows everything we?ve ever did wrong at Spring Creek, even if we were never punished or confronted, they said they know because of what people wrote in their homework the night before. Gilcrease told people to stand up and admit what they had done wrong, before he reveals what they know in front of everyone. If you admit to it, they said you wouldn?t be punished. They said if we didn?t admit to anything, the punishment for our secret misdeeds would be much more severe than normal. You could see everyone get worried. Of course, we all had broken some rule while being there, so some people started admitting to stuff. They ended up all being punished for what they admitted to it turns out. Those of us who kept quiet, our secrets remained intact. They didn?t really know our secrets, just another mind game.


I never took any of the seminars seriously, I pretended the best I could, and would even pretend to cry, but most people did take it seriously. While being barraged by verbal intimidation from Gilcrease, some would admit to startling and shocking secrets in front of everyone. Rape, incest, molestation, you name it- we heard about it. It was pretty obvious some kids would get more emotional than the rest when we were doing certain ?exercises?, and they?d push these kids for admissions and secrets because they were close to breaking. Then they?d admit to something outrageous in front of everyone, and then from then on they were popular in the group. It?s difficult to explain to someone who has never been to one. The sense was if you didn?t hold back, the crowd of emotionally charged people, would accept you. There were many games played throughout the seminar that enforced whether people ?trusted? you or not.

It became obvious a few kids made up overly outrageous stories, that I definitely questioned in my own mind, but their emotional confession, real or not gained the respect of the crowd. I don?t have any shameful secrets from my past, so I just made something up as I?m sure many had to.


The activities the first day and a half were ridiculing and degrading. One game involved everyone standing in a circle facing toward the inside. One at a time, we would walk around the interior of the circle, facing the person on the outside, looking directly in the eyes. We were told to imagine we were on a sinking ship, and we could only save 5 other people. We were then instructed to walk around the circle of about 60 people, and let the person know if we intended on ?saving? them or letting them ?die?. They instructed people to scream ?DIE? like they meant it, screaming right into the faces. There were many games like this, which were emotionally charged. Either you were accepted by the group, or not. Each game reinforced this feeling, whichever way it might be. This was the test if you passed the seminar. If they felt you were ?manipulating? your way through, you wouldn?t pass. If they felt you were sincere, you would pass the seminar.


The last part was almost like a celebration. At the end we were broken up into groups and made to do skits, child like performances in costumes. They told everyone they had passed Discovery, so of course now everyone was very happy and relieved. It was a combination of exhaustion and euphoria and nobody was thinking clearly by this point. We just wanted to go back to sleep. Everyone was told to make a poster with three adjectives. You would then go up in front of everyone and scream with all your heart, ?I am a HAPPY, LOVING, CARING young man!? for example.


Now that I look back on the experience many years later, it is much easier to know what was going on. There is no substance to the seminars, just emotional games. I eventually went on to pass Focus as well, the seminar required to get to level 3. I bullshitted my way through that one too, but barely. They are much more discriminating with how ?real? you are being at the seminars. It was a very strange experience to say the least. I urge you to read the link on the right; it has a much more detailed accounting of the TASKS seminar experience.


Besides the seminars, I could just wait out my time at Spring Creek. Sometimes I?d get mad and say something I wasn?t supposed to towards staff or Jr. Staff and they?d take all my points away. It felt good to let out an insult or threat every once in a while, even if it cost you your brown sugar for a week. I was in the hobbit maybe three or four times, for different reasons. I tried to run once, only made it about 250 feet before a Jr. Staff tackled me and then a bunch of staff dragged me up to Special needs for several days. It gets so frustrating; darting into the snowy woods doesn?t seem like a bad idea at times. We would hear a train go by in the distance every day, I was trying to head towards that train.

posted by Spring Creek Dropout at 2:14 PM  

If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2005, 07:40:00 PM »
I can only write a small amount cuz my time is short. I have a stupid old computer and it dosnt work for no reason some times. Ill keep trying get the link up, but thanks for doing that. Hope you didnt have to write it all out! I can only read the first part for now till my daughter goes to bed, but from what I read, mostly the first part is about the seminars. It sounds similar, except we did seminars at the facility. The only difference is that in my group the therapist you see daily determins if you are ready to go to a seminar. I didnt know many people from my group who went right away, like the day after they got there. I really dont like David gilcrese. He is a big butt head and he is my main complaint wiht the program. I think he is arrogant and rude. I went through all my seminars with Jan. She is an amazing person and a really great lady. I coulnt have done it without her. I think the seminars have the potential to be really helpful depending on who is staffing. I had a few other staffers but i gladly chose out of their seminar and am greatful i was able to do it wiht Jan. Even though I chose out of two seminars I graduated in 14 months. It all depends I guess. Well I'll continue this later.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2005, 10:23:00 PM »
I thought the seminars were bullshit, and I think I have enough evidence via testimony of them to be able to assert that they *ARE* bullshit factually.

I mean, if they werent so fucking secretive about it, we'd already know, but whatever.

If I am of the opinion that it is inexpedient to assign to the government the task of operating railroads, hotels, or mines, I am not an "enemy of the state" any more than I can be called an enemy of sulfuric acid because I am of the opinion that, useful though it may be for many purposes, it is not suitable either for drinking, or for washing one's hands.
http://www.mises.org/liberal/ch1sec7.asp' target='_new'>Ludwig Von Mises

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Perrigaud

  • Posts: 361
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2005, 05:10:00 AM »
Ginger,
  You asked and now I will deliver. Ok here we go. I went to both Casa and CCM.

Housing/Bedding: Ok well the beds were actually lined up the same way at Casa. However in CCM we had 3 big oak bunk beds in one room. That room had it's own full bathroom. Casa had about 5 or 6 showers one next to the other. The doors were clear and so we put our towels over the doors or handles to get privacy. Lice thing? Yeah that was abundunt. But it's common in schools as well. At Casa there was a Scabbies outbreak. That was not fun.

School: Yeah school was easy for me too. However I did go to the local college in St. George. I was on level 5 at that time. It was great. School was text book self-taught. At Casa it was a joke. Just like SCL.

Lines: Well on lower level yes we were in lines. However there was no "Nut to butt" crap. And yes we did have space between us and the other girl. On upper levels we didn't have that line. At Casa they had implemented a rule the day before I left. They said that the girls not only had to look forwards at all times but they had to also walk in form of a etch-a-sketch. Meaning no curves.

Staff: Um well in life no one is going to be Suzie Homemaker constantly. We had some staff that were nice and others that were way strict. It happens. Staff taking things out on the girls? Never experienced that myself.

Worksheets: Well at Casa and CCM they were tapes of 100 greatest people or 100 greatest novels. We sat straight up and took a quiz at the end of each 45 minute tape. No shoddy quarters.

Junior Staff: Well, at Casa this was true. But in Cross Creek it wasn't. The upper levels were more like big sisters that still had to follow the rules. They couldn't give consequences.

Seminars: All on how you perceive them. Yes we had big posters. But their was no need to dramatize life. I never did. I told the truth. It's scary to blurt out your fears, past, mistakes, and such. I had nothing to lose. I thought "Why not? They aren't going to judge me. Why would they. They hurt just as badly." Some of the facilitators sucked. Jan was my favorite. She had a purity to her that I loved. Humiliation? No one can make you feel humiliated without your permission. I found it relieving to discuss my thoughts and past. I found I was not alone in my experiences. Everyone has a sob story.

Did I miss anything? If I did please tell me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2005, 04:49:00 PM »
Quote
Seminars: All on how you perceive them.


I could say the same about almost any activity! Its like a blank check to do what you want to the kids and say its THEIR fault for not taking it right! But as we've said repeatedly, these seminars are cookie-cutter, FORCED (unless you want to sit on your ass until 18 and take the exit plan, thats coersion, thast force) and potentially damaging.

I might as well demand you try bondage or sado/masochism or anal sex. Hey, its all in how you perceive it, right?

Also, maybe you in your seminar somehow didnt get a bad facilitator, but plenty have, apparently. I've read and heard from those who say they do judge you and demean you with it. Also, saying nobody can make you be humiliated without permission is an ideal, and a pep-talk, but its not true.

Plenty of people could do so to you in a controlled environment, unconsentually. It boils down to how much time they have, and if its limited, how good they are at finding your buttons and pushing them. It can be done. I dont feel like doing so to prove it, but trust me, it could be done. Now, here in the real world you could just walk away, right? CAN'T in a program seminar!

Now, you, and i'm sure plenty of people all can find it relieving to discussing their thoughts and past. However, when its part of a forced seminar, or if that person is of the type that DOES NOT like to talk about it, guess what? Its not so relieving to THEM. People are different, Perrigaud.

I have seen signs that there are psychological archetypes of people... maybe some actual psych. peer evaluation and refinement of these 'seminars' might help to tailor them for the kind of people who go into them, or at least screen out those who dont get a a benefit - especially those who might be hurt about it.

But in the end, its back to what we've been repeating like a broken record for some time. Saying its a sob story or "life goes on" or people make mistakes or its all in how you take it/make it/perceive it is just ridiculous! Its basically excusing away the behavior and actions of the program while its busy punishing and 'fixing' the behavior of the kids. If you use the "stop complaining" and "its all in now you take it" excuse then the seminar could be practically ANYTHING. There ARE problems and they DO need to be changed.

History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2005, 04:54:00 PM »
I have to say, as far as accountability goes, good idea, bad seminar. But Discovery and focus helped me. I liked the things I learned there. They may be bullshit for you and didnt help, but I thought they did good for me. It also depends on the facilitator. I had Jan for every one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2005, 05:49:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-04-07 19:23:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"I thought the seminars were bullshit, and I think I have enough evidence via testimony of them to be able to assert that they *ARE* bullshit factually.


"


Oh, they most surely *ARE* bullshit, you can be sure of that. They are about as helpful as going to see a TV evangelist to 'heal' you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2005, 07:24:00 PM »
All I have to ask is:
Why the hell do you need to get in a large group, in a controlled setting, under the control of others, be it a emotional/psycholgoical sort of peer-pressure for the adults or TOTAL control of the form program kids have, and be lead through a emotional rollercoaster with back ground music, lighting, and all sorts of bullshit "processes" to learn anything?

I'd wager to say you DONT. The problem isnt what they (should) teach, its HOW its done. Maybe to you or any sort of program/LGAT supporter it is normal or even necessary, but to the rest of us who havent yet gotten to the punch bowl its bizzare and needless.

But, I degress. You WERE out of control if you were a child in those two seminars, and its better to somehow get something out of it than to not, but seminars are not necessary and its not the people's fault if they get screwed up by it. Its a double-bind. The program getting paid a ton of money should hire a real psychologist and fix it or just DROP it and use regular psychotherapy that *DOES* work.

The hypothalamus is one of the most important parts of the brain, involved in many kinds of motivation, among other functions.  The hypothalamus controls the "Four F's": 1. fighting;  2. fleeing;  3.feeding; and  4. mating.
-- Psychology professor in neuropsychology intro course

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2005, 09:49:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-04-08 13:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I have to say, as far as accountability goes, good idea, bad seminar. But Discovery and focus helped me. I liked the things I learned there. They may be bullshit for you and didnt help, but I thought they did good for me. It also depends on the facilitator. I had Jan for every one."


Do you think they may have been overly stressful for some of the other kids?

Clancy's Law: The perceived role of governments is to deploy ever increasing resources to the attainment of  ever diminishing end results.
--Home Page

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Perrigaud

  • Posts: 361
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2005, 06:05:00 AM »
Ok. The seminars helped me and didn't screw me up. I know plenty others that went through them and are not traumatized. It's easy to focus and point out the negative. However, the positive is seldom looked at. As for being traumatized. The actual events I went through in my lifetime were far worse than speaking about my real issues. I survived the events. I was happy to work on my issues.

Again, I am with you as far as they should not be forced upon on some kids.

Antigen,
 These seminars can be way too much for some individuals. Is it their fault? No it's just that they don't deal that way.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2005, 02:31:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-04-09 03:05:00, Perrigaud wrote:

Antigen,
These seminars can be way too much for some individuals. Is it their fault? No it's just that they don't deal that way.


Ok, and how do you feel about having had to take part in something that was harmful to some other participants?

This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.
--John Adams, U.S. President

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2005, 02:50:00 PM »
Antigen,

Its hard to say exactly why some people dont like seminars. I dont know about overly stressful. Learning something new ingeneral can be stressful for sure, wethere its in a seminar or in colledge or whatever. New lessons can be tough. I think the reason I likes Discovery and Focus was because i didnt have reservations about what would happen. I was willing to take it as it came and see the good i coudl learn from it, cuz what I was doing wasnt working. It was nice to learn a diffeent way of looking at things. Life is so damn short (especially for those who smoke 1 pack a day like me) and I like to look for the good in life now. Its too short to look at all the bad. I mean seminars and programs and AA aside. There are alot scarier things facing the youth of today than that! Hell global warming and the environmental threats facing all of us are scarier to me than any expereince I had in the program or anything! I think the reason I liked the seminars was because I have a hard time being in groups let alone speaking in front of them .Luckily I had a facilitator who didnt make me feel wrong or bad for what I said. She really did what she was doing because she cared about helping me. I never felt uncomfortable saying things around her. I never felt demeaned by her. So I felt comfortablew facing my fear of public speaking and dealing with my past. Accountability was blah. I didnt see the point but I think taking accountablilty for your actions is always a good lesson to learn. Now that i am able to do that, i can see many people in my life who blame everyone else for their problems and their attitude, even though it is clear they are responsible. I think the hardest thing about going through the program isnt what you learn, its the fact that the peopel outside the program rarely use the tools you learn there so you end up being accountable, have slef respect (depending on the program) and treat others the way you want to be and other people who havnt been through that dont. Its hard for me to practice positive thinking and accountqablility and treating others with respect when so many peopel in America are rude, selfish, unaccountable, and just plain mean. But I also choose the people I want to be around and dont hang out with those with a negative attitude (for the most part. Cant choose your family)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Nihilanthic

  • Posts: 3931
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Opinions on SCL ~ Perrigaud & Friends
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2005, 03:09:00 PM »
Ok, yet again... why even bother with all the bullshit seminars drag along with them and talk about how its the person (Being forced into it) who has to make something of it? Why not dump the shit totally and tell Gilcrease to get a job?

The assumption of its necessity is the real problem here, not children internalizing it correctly or whatever term exists for how participants of LGATs take what is done to them. They dont NEED it and the proof of it 'working' is pretty hard to come by when you dont get out of them until you at least act like it "sunk in". But well, hey, its their fault for keeping the seminars so damned secretive, not ours.

And, PLEASE stop bringing up OTHER things if we're talking about SEMINARS. Its getting off topic and trying to marginalize our issues with them. WTF does global warming have to do with this? I'm not going to accuse you of dodging because it doesnt seem like thats your goal... but it feels like it somewhat.

They dont HAVE to be in programs or HAVE to be in seminars in the first place, despite what others might tell you. And the other thing is changing how you look at things... playing with perception is a slippery slope.

If peoples perceptions and world-views are being changed, whats the chance they could also be manipulated when in the seminar and not be the best unbaised source for info about them, hmm? BTW, please dont reply with double-speak about bias. I'm already anticipating something like that.  

Where powers are assumed which have not been delegated, a nullification of the act is the rightful remedy.
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'>Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."