Dear ISACCORP,

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-03 16:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

Let's think of your group, as say Iraq, and mine as Jordan, and figure out how this all came to pass and how to stop it. Or, if you wish, we could go back to this ====>

Well, I'd almost always rather have a meaningful discussion than a brawl. I guess I'm getting old, huh?

But, unless you're intentionally misrepresenting things, you really must be very misinformed. I don't have a group. If you're refering to the ISAC people, I respect what they do as regards their website. But, outside of that, we barely even tolerate each other on a good day. Just ask Bill OR Shelby. As for Marti, well I won't even go there. Suffice it to say that she probably wouldn't want to be a member of any group that would have me, and the feeling is mutual.

I did hear it through the grapevine, though, that you guys thought Bill E was the red panties maniac.  :rofl: If you only knew, you'd have to laugh to keep from crying. If you want that info, you'll just have to pay the freight. But I really think you'd be disapointed.

Hmm, Iraq and Jordan you say? I haven't been paying attention. Here's the first article that came up:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Mar20.html

Does this mean I win my bet and the Pure folks are going to be the first to start lobbing bomb laden virgins at us?

My understanding of the origins of this brawl is this. Joyce Harris says she was refered by Sue Scheff to Whitmore Accademy. Unhappy w/ her experience w/ them (to say the least!) she made a statement to ISAC. I honestly didn't expect that to go anywhere and I have to say it raised my opinion of Shelby immesurably when it actually went up. But it did and as soon as it did, suddenly we have a bunch of peopl talking all sorts of shit about Shelby and ISAC. A bunch of other folks, most of whom have been far closer to the whole situation than I for a very long time, cried foul. And now we're seeing a whole lot of shit talk about them.

This is very much reminiscent of what happened when Carey Bock broke ranks and refused to follow Sue's directives. And no, I'm not defending Carey or everything she did. Just commenting on the way in which folks who didn't want her talking have gone about silencing her. And you, my buddy, are among the ringleaders. Both rounds.

I'm hoping that some of the kids (some now adults) who landed up in Escula Caribe will aslo make statements to ISAC. Not that they haven't already posted here and to their own forums and websites elsewhere (all that I know of are listed at Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-03 16:31:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Oh, and by the way, you keep giving me "annoy" pop-ups and I'll just keep changing servers.  I've got a million of them  :smokin: "

Well, I've counted three or four so far. But you have such a distinctive style, it's hard to miss. Unless.... unless it's all your followers mindlessly carrying out your will  :rofl:  :rofl:

If All it takes is an infinite number of monkeys with type writers, then how come there's no Shakespeare coming out of AOL?
-- Anonymous

[Anonymous]

Without using the quote option, to be considerate of server space, I'll just reply:

I know you will find this hard to believe, but you haven't got the whole post thing figured out (IPs and such).  But that's not important.  Your post was definitely the entree to a good discussion.  First and foremost, I'm not sure why you think I can speak for Sue on that last issue.  I'm really not a PURE Lt., I just don't think all this other stuff I've seen is fair at all.  

For instance, since you mentioned the undergarment.  That was beyond satirical.  In my opinion way beyond, but I never heard it was the person you mentioned. To be honest, I thought someone else completely.  Whoever it was, it was way beyond the pale and to be honest, I think that person retaliated against someone who might not have even posted.  That's the problem with a lot of what happens here (not a barb directed to you).

On the history of the Whitmore thing.  I understand it's a small school with 30 or 40 children and, honestly, I think there has been a lot of embellishment of the facts.  You, me, and most of the others who have posted don't have any personal knowledge of the facts.  Yes, the horse thing is disturbing, but I find it hard to believe that these people torture horses for fun.  It can't possibly be fun.  I hadn't heard anything concerning cultish behavior that was actually verified, but if your point is that people got upset and Shelby reported that, then I understand your position.  I just think that some people were a little too ready to literally chew-off the hand that fed them.  My guess is that everyone would have acted with integrity (sans the Whitmore owners, I can't say there) if there wasn't such a mad-dash to the keyboard.  Collecting all the facts first, I think, would have been they key to keeping everyone from getting hot under the collar.

Finally, believe me, everyone is working overtime on the shit-talking on and off your site.  And again, I'm no ringleader, it just looks that way to you in IP-land.

So, as the hour grows late, let me just say Ginger, you have been your usual interesting self, and I have enjoyed this little break from - how did you put it - oh yes, "mortal combat".  The bomb laiden virgins was definitely funny - good catch Ginger.

Have a good evening.


 ::cheers::

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-03 18:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Without using the quote option, to be considerate of server space, I'll just reply:

Thanks. I apreciate that. But server space is really no object. Turns out this little net ready sql engine has some mighty awsome balls and I haven't even had to put the database on a diet since the epoch in 2001.

Your post was definitely the entree to a good discussion.  First and foremost, I'm not sure why you think I can speak for Sue on that last issue.  

Because you only come around when Sue's taking a hit around here and you focus on issues related to PURE to the exclusion of all others.

I'm really not a PURE Lt., I just don't think all this other stuff I've seen is fair at all.  



For instance, since you mentioned the undergarment. That was beyond satirical.  In my opinion way beyond, but I never heard it was the person you mentioned. To be honest, I thought someone else completely.  Whoever it was, it was way beyond the pale and to be honest, I think that person retaliated against someone who might not have even posted.  That's the problem with a lot of what happens here (not a barb directed to you).

Actually, that wasn't anywhere near as raw as some of what flies around here. But I agree w/ you. It was beside the point and below the belt and overly provocative in the midsts of a discussion that I would rather have moved more tword seriousness and sobriety. I could say just the same about much of what you post. But that's the way it goes. If I wanted a moderated forum that reflected only those things that I find worthwhile, I'd have set it up that way. It's just not what I'm after.

On the history of the Whitmore thing.  I understand it's a small school with 30 or 40 children and, honestly, I think there has been a lot of embellishment of the facts.  

Well, I think you can take it as a given when discussing any of these places that there will be exagerations and outright bullshit. The object of discussion is for all parties to beat hell out of anything they find suspect and see what's left standing at the end of the day.

Which of the claims about the Whitmore do you find suspect and why?

You, me, and most of the others who have posted don't have any personal knowledge of the facts.  

Not ALL of the facts. But a good many, plus a lot of clues.

Yes, the horse thing is disturbing, but I find it hard to believe that these people torture horses for fun.  It can't possibly be fun.

You'll be stunned and amazed to know that I agree w/ you about that. I think the judge in Canada said it best. That kid made a mistake in not admiting (maybe not even fully recognizing) when he was in over his head. And I think the Suds made a mistake in assuming, for whatever reason, that the kid had the knowledge, ability or maturity to handle the task. This is putting aside all the side issues about why there was not adequate feed available or where Mark actually was during that time.

And this leads us to the cultish stuff...

I hadn't heard anything concerning cultish behavior that was actually verified

I think the reason why they trusted that kid w/ their horses is probably about the same as why the people at The Seed and Straight and WWASP programs and a lot of others tend to draw on their graduate groups for therapeutic staff. They actually and sincerely believe that their program is SO good as to equip any 17yo for any damned thing! Why, if you find that your employers are overly affected w/ the newage, conciousness expanding seminars, then I'd suggest you sign up for a couple of seminars or polish up you resume.

For a mainline dose of the creepy cultic, check out this thread. "Miricle Workers"
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... orum=35&22 Or look at some of the threats that Whitmore supporters have made against the kids who have made unauthorized reports to the Nephi PD.

, but if your point is that people got upset and Shelby reported that, then I understand your position.  I just think that some people were a little too ready to literally chew-off the hand that fed them.  

There, I think you're misinformed. Or maybe I am. I'm not real tight w/ any of the gossip circles. But the way I heard it, the first Whitmore report went up and Sue went all threatening and manic about it. I didn't know whether to believe it, though it sure seemed consistent w/ what I've seen before. Then you decided to drop in on us again and that sort of gave it away.  

My guess is that everyone would have acted with integrity (sans the Whitmore owners, I can't say there) if there wasn't such a mad-dash to the keyboard.

  Collecting all the facts first, I think, would have been they key to keeping everyone from getting hot under the collar.

I don't think it really started w/ a mad dash. Here's the original thread started in this forum at a time when you know damned well I was busy w/ more pressing matters than this forum.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 7&forum=35

Even by the following April, Whitmore still didn't ring a bell. People post program names around here all the time looking for dish. Most often, they're trolls trying to incite actionable statements. But even if they're not, I don't want to go talking out my ass and getting people needlessly upset. If the true and correct answer is "I don't know, leme see what I can find out" then that's the answer I give. A lot of other pple around here do the same. I've learned SO much from this and I'm thankful.

I am interested in collecting facts. One of the aparent facts of the matter has been the response by Whitmore supporters. And much of that has come down to either "Cheryl (or Sue, in some cases) said it, I believe it, that settles it." or
Well you're just a dirty rotten no good liar, druggie, slut, (etc., ad nauseum) so nobody will believe you anyway" Then there were the blackmail threats and what, for all the world, looked like a delivery on that promise, and that spoke VOLUMES!
 

Finally, believe me, everyone is working overtime on the shit-talking on and off your site.  And again, I'm no ringleader, it just looks that way to you in IP-land.

Oh, I know that's right. No, I honestly guess you're a ringleader in the keyboard warrior department and a follower in the real world aspect of the thing. You just have too many details wrong or off message, but I think you enjoy the combat as much as anybody.

So, as the hour grows late, let me just say Ginger, you have been your usual interesting self, and I have enjoyed this little break from - how did you put it - oh yes, "mortal combat".  The bomb laiden virgins was definitely funny - good catch Ginger.



Have a good evening.





 ::cheers:: "

Thanks, and you too.

The legislature is to society as a physician is to the patient. If a physician ignored side effects of medications like today's legislators ignore the side effects of their legislation, the physician would be accused of malpractice. I accuse today's legislators (with rare exception) of legislative malpractice. Many of the ills that are so obvious in our society are a direct result of previous legislation. Their solution? More laws!
-- John A. Bennett, DO

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Helena Handbasket]

What's going on here?

Aside from the PDF load delay, what is the deal here?  I have no problem copying text from the site, and I have also reported a broken link (about a month ago) - tried it tonight, and it brought up my default email.  Didn't hit "send" though - nothing to report!

This was on an XP laptop using Firefox. Too tired to try anything else.

Question is - are you sure it's ISAC and not a local computer problem?  What gives with the inability to copy?

Seriously - I'm not seeing any of this.

[Anonymous]

You're able to copy the Acrobat Reader articles?

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-04-04 06:20:00, Anonymous wrote:

"You're able to copy the Acrobat Reader articles?"

Yep - by hitting the "save a copy" button, and also by selecting text and copy/pasting.

[BuzzKill]

Quoting Ginger to (I assume) Lee:

Which of the claims about the Whitmore do you find suspect and why?


Indeed - which?
Have you even read any of the Whitmore forum?
That's what got my eyes open to the fact I had been snowed about these people.
It can be confusing with so many not registering; but the main "complainants" do register and so you can learn a good deal just by reading their posts.
You ought to get in touch with Joyce Harriss. She is right in your neck of the woods - good ole Texan gal. She is not what you have been told - and I know what you've been told. I was told the same thing - and I too believed it until I spent a week end reading the Whitmore forum.
At that point I began (along with others) to ask a good friend to rethink things, as I felt She was being mislead and wasn't looking at the issue with unbiased eyes. My original concern was for Her, and the damage Her unwillingness to look at the evidence might cause Her. At that point ALL I was doing was disagreeing with Her assessment of the situation and giving advice she found distasteful.
Then ISAC got served.
I soon found myself under attack for my concern. And largely by you Pal. Thanks for the eye opener.
Anyway. . .
Events played out, and in my opinion, evidence piled up, and lead to inescapable conclusions. I DID try and not go there. It IS Heartbreaking.  
I don't think you have yet to really objectively look at the evidence. I think b/c it IS Heartbreaking.
I still think you should.
There are others besides the program that need to be held accountable Lee. And maybe its your duty, in light of your proclaiming concern for the kids, to help hold them accountable.

 [ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-04-04 08:05 ]

[Anonymous]

On 2005-04-04 07:44:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:

"

On 2005-04-04 06:20:00, Anonymous wrote:


"You're able to copy the Acrobat Reader articles?"

Yep - by hitting the "save a copy" button, and also by selecting text and copy/pasting."

Well, I think you're assuming an awful lot if you think that just any ignorant parent/or other person seeking information (who is not computer savvy by any stretch of the imagination) is going to ever figure out how to do any of that to begin with, and that was my whole point but sorry for the frustrated first post, and I'm done here. They can leave it however they want to it's their site and their work and research is appreciated.

[spots]

My, my, my.  After posting a somewhat-petulant jab at ISAC because they never "accepted" my offer of volunteerism, I spent a lovely weekend with the animals.  {Grandaughter just came back Saturday night from a weeklong vacation of sorts with her "other" family, visiting Eastern colleges, zillions of basketball games, and NYC and St. Louis.  Her first words home?  "I'm NEVER going anyplace with them again".

Anyway, here is this rambling, flaming thread when I return.  From Page 1, I find Karen saying...

"Spots - what were you volunteering to do? I am kind of surprised to see you volunteered, in light of your unwillingness to be contacted for info on Casa.

If all you want to do is post on Forums from time to time, what use could you be to ISAC? I'd imagine they have little need of "Forum posters".

While I really don't find a need to defend myself, I would like the record to note that I was never unwilling to be contacted for info on Casa.  Where on earth did you get that idea, Karen?  ISAC called me after the Casa closing, and I finally decided against appearing at their "press conference" about the closures, considering that it was about 3 weeks after the Big News hit, due to some logistic problems on their end. And, as I said in my original post on this thread, I offered typing, research, and monetary help, but was never taken up on my offer.  

I have always felt my "anectdotal" comments on our WWASPS experiences were insightful for the ordinary searching parent, so that's what I mostly do.  That is what *I* think is helpful to clothe this industry in a bad light...which is what *I* think is an effective way of reducing and eventually eliminating the fodder of troublesome teens that makes this Evil Empire run.  Dare I say that anectdotes about daily life (the truth, not the marketing bullshit) may have more of an effect on changing a searching parent's view of the situation than **7** pages of He Said/She Said that this thread has evolved into.  

[BTW, I copied the above quote from Karen by hitting "Copy" on my Internet Express toolbar, second command from the left, under "Edit", kept it on the clipboard, and pasted when I opened this message to Fornits.  Not exactly rocket science, but you DO need to know how to do it.  Perhaps a note on the ISAC Home Page about copying selections, short or long, may help the Average Reader.  There!!!  Constructive Criticism.]

As for the quoted material from this lengthy thread...

On 2005-04-03 05:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What are you talking about?  It was SPOTS who suggested that there were problems with links over at the ISAC site.  I never said I have a problem with it.  Get your Anons and Registered users straight asswipe :exclaim:



 :smokin: "

...uhmm...Dear Anonymous, please check further before putting your foot into your mouth and labeling other Anonymous writers as toilet paper.  My screen name here is Spots, many of you know my real name and a lot about my life, and I post as a Registered User at all times.  I did not speak of any links or problems at ISAC.  I was on Page One, being snitty because nobody wanted me enough to even give me a response to my bloody offer.

ISAC has it's place, and I found astonishing information when I spent hours moving through the cumbersome sight.  One of the best was a Top Secret memo from Allen Dulles, first CIA Director, to J. Edgar Hoover, FBI, about the new phenomenon of Brain Washing of Korean POW's, what it was, and how to combat it by forewarning our soldiers of what may happen to them.  Wouldn't it be nice if high schools across the US put a one-day lesson in their "social living"-type courses, outlining brainwashing.  Then teens could make an informed reaction to behavior modification schools, religious fanatics, and even dinner-time TV ads slamming one political candidate after another.  That's called Critical Thinking, but it's not taught much, as most high school teachers themselves don't know how to Critical Think.

Just KNOWING is powerful.  I feel it is our bully pulpit here on Fornits to help the world to KNOW what really is happening.

[Anonymous]

spots just shut the  "F"  up.

Thank you!

[BuzzKill]

// I would like the record to note that I was never unwilling to be contacted for info on Casa. Where on earth did you get that idea //

Well, maybe you don't recall, but we exchanged email on the subject and you told me you weren't interested in speaking to press or parents. I recall something along the lines of you did your advocating and educating by forum posting and that was as involved as you wanted to be. I seem to recall explanations about being busy with many things and not wanting personal entanglements.
I am OK with all that; I understand; and this is why I never gave out your email to questioning parents or press.
If you have changed you mind - Please tell me! I have often wished very much I could refer folks to you!
But anyway - this is why my question on the subject. I guess it sounded snappy (as so many others seem to think so) but I didn't mean for it to sound so.

// I have always felt my "anectdotal" comments on our WWASPS experiences were insightful for the ordinary searching parent, so that's what I mostly do. //

I agree; and as I said, I understand if that as much as you want to do.

So, I hope that clears up any misunderstand on this subject.

[miseducated]

Spots I like your idea on educating children about brainwashing! When I was in the 3rd grade we did a unit on advertising (I guess I had some groovy teachers, a vietnam vet for one!) and I still remember stuff from that. Since having been in an abusive institution I have wondered if only I had known a little more. As a teenager I had just read, on my own, that brainwashing involves starving people and keeping them up all night, which is not exactly what I saw when I was a cult prisoner, so I had a hard time maintaining my initial viewpoint when I went in that the people there were brainwashed.

[Deborah]

'Brainwashing' doesn't require food and sleep deprivation to be successful, they just hasten the process by inducing anxiety- fight or flight. Fight or flight is then punished. It sets up a dynamic between abuser and abuse. You're point is valid in terms of how people should be educated on the subject.
I feel my mom was 'brainwashed' by the baptist church she was raised in, and they certainly never starved her or interfered with her sleep.
What they did do was persistently create anxiety about evil and burning in hell.  Convinced her that someone (god) was watching and judging her every thought and action. Convinced her that in order to be saved from burning in hell, she must repent and attend church regularly, oh, and read her bible and interpret it literally. That slow, but persistent 'conditioning' effected her in such a way that she will not miss a service unless there is a critical situation at hand... not just a fun family event that we all want her to attend.
The key ingredient... anxiety/fear.
Public schools don't starve or sleep deprive students and they certainly do their share of brainwashing/conditiong.
In the case of school, the key ingredient is inforced boredom, punishment for non compliance, and 12 years of persistent conditioning. Now I bet public school kids would not hear that from any (definitely most) of their teachers.

[Anonymous]

ginger, adept troll here...kz just like i said...i've been off the pc for about a week and a half!!!  come back to find both YOU & Judge Warbis accussing me of stirring the pot.  Sorry both of you are dead wrong, again.

Ginger should be able to prove it via IP addys...definately didn't come from the home pc. no one has been at the house?  laptop has been with me for the entire time?  I didn't have any time for entertainment while i was away working.  so...

so in the future; i suggest the two of you should argue amongst yourselfs while i'm not available & NOT blame little ole' ME!  on ya'lls behalf, it does appear that some one has taken over in my absense though?

sorry, to disapoint the two of YOU!

out of hear,

the one & only "adept" troll