Author Topic: My Opinions  (Read 31649 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #165 on: April 03, 2005, 06:29:00 PM »
The physical addiction of alcohol is rational, but the mental addiction, the "why" of why someone drinks is not so rationally based. I mean say one drinks because they think they are ugly aqnd drinking makes them less insecure. There is no rationally based thinking for that. The person may look quite lovely but they stil think that. there is no rational base for that. I used to feel such a way about myself. i never had anyone tell me I was ugly, but I was convinced I was. It was a completely irrational thing.
I understand your critisism of AA. I agree about the gene therapy. But I dont understand why if AA is workign for others why do you try so hard to convince others and me it dosnt work? Numbers and statistics and future cures aside, it is working for people right now. So what is the problem with that? I think that is where I get confused about your view. Why is it so wrong for someone to A) get help and B) for that help to work for them. If it works for them than good, dont oyu think? I mean I think we can agree on one thing. And that is that there are people suffering, we dont like that and we think there needs to be a solution, right? I mean neither one of us wants anyone to suffer from drug addiction. Neither one of us wants people to be unhappy and out of control in their lives. However I feel like there are many different methods to choose form to get that help and no matter what it is, if it works than cool! I feel like you are saying try different methods, but for gods sake dont try AA or treatment!
I mean if those things work for those people gettign help than cudoz to them.
I never once said AA is the only answer.
I did say it is an option and could work.
I hear you saying they never will and therefore you shouldnt try it.
Say someone tried your way and it dosnt work for them. Would you eliminate AA just because you think it might not work?
If they trie dit all and AA works, then what is the problem with that?
( By the way to make sure you can follow my typing, Im addressing the post that starts " Of course drug addiction and alcoholism are rationally based things...")
Well isnt someone who drinks and drives abusing their rights? Rights didnt mean much to them when the got into their car and drove drunk. But as soon as they are being punished for abusing their rights, now it is a big deal? I mean driving is dangerous and a privledge, not a right.
Well, not allowing someone to do drugs is a violation of their rights. So should drugs be legal? What is your view?
Ive been to a hell of alot of meetings and I can tell you that alot of the things that are said in there adress how people learned to deal with their addiction. It is useful stuff in my opinion. and it dosnt all have to do wiht AA. It has to do with how each person is coping wiht it in many different ways.
Have you ever been to a meeting? What was your experience there? Did you see alot of babbling about AA? I have said many times that the steps of AA could be used in any area of your life not just in alcoholism and stuff. Making amends when you do something hurtful to someone else is always a good thing. Writing a list of your "personal defects of character" and finding the origin of those and working on them seems good to me too. Giving up control over the things you cant change is a good idea as well.
I think my point is if an alcohlic was so worried about their rights, than they wouldnt put them in jeapordy by drinking and driving or selling drugs or whatever.
And you were saying in another post that jail time seems good for that offense.
Isnt that a total violation of rights?
YOu sai dit perfectly when you said "Your emotions are real things to you, but arent rel once oyu get outside your own head."
I think that goes for your opinions too, as with mine. They are real to us, but they mean diddly squat in someone elses reality. I mean just because you believe AA dosnt work, dosnt make a recovering person in AAs experience any less valid or their recovery any less valid.
I dont think your cold. Actually your quite like my Dad> Hes a mathamatician and goes alot of of what is rational and less off emotion. I think its brilliant that you fight for a cause you so strongly believe in. Even though I think your wrong in this case, I respect you for standing up for your beliefs.
I am not too attached to AA personally. It worked for a time and now I have tried something else. That is why I say it isnt the only answer. However I use the principles of AA alot still. It is definetly not my moral and religious position!
YOu may see me as foolish but I think its more foolish to fight with someone over something so trivial when we have the same overall goal in mind. I believe in a persons right to be happy. I believe in a persons freeedom of choice, and I think that has alot to do with what Im saying here. I think you are misunderstanding me. I think AA works for some and those it dosnt can find something else that does. Agree?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #166 on: April 03, 2005, 06:44:00 PM »
I think your red band idea is great. ( I am not being sarcastic or anything I really do)
But I dont see the problem with using both tecniques of that and AA. Hey someone might mandatorily go and get alot of help from it. Is their recovery invalid because it dosnt work fro others who go involuntarily? I think that thier recovery matters and if it takes an AA meeting or two than they should do it.
But he red ban is a violation of rights no matter how you word it. So its contradictory to say "they have rights! They sholdnt be forced into anything!" and then say "We shold implement a red ban where they get their drinking rights, driving rights taken away and then lock them up until there is a cure with out trying to help them at all while they are loked up."
I think no matter what you do trying to control someone actions is always going to take a way soem rights. The question I believe is, is it worth it to them to take away soem rights so they can get help?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #167 on: April 03, 2005, 06:55:00 PM »
The reason I said that about criticizing AA si becasue you sadi several times in anothe rpost that you dont like people substituting emotion for stuff, you dont like the evangilism of AA and so on. I was merely statign that while you feel that way I too dont like it when people critisize AA. Im not losing sleep at night about people not agreeing with me.
I have no prolem wiht people criticising AA. I have aproblem wiht peopel who refust to accept that it could help people and is helping people right now. Hey if you dont like it thats cool. I respect that. But I dont see the point in critisising AA, which in return critisises the people using it to get help.
All I know is that it works for those I love. My grandmother lived an extra 8 years or so because of her getting help in AA. She died of cancer, but she would have died from drinking if she wouldnt have gone to AA. And I am so happy she did.
I apologize if my typing is hard to follow. This is my first and only forum Ive been on and I dont use the computer much (only for solitaire!) so yeah. But I would like you to tell me what part of it is hard to follow? Is it my ghrammer or my paragraphs or something? I want you to be able to follow what Im saying, so help me out there.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #168 on: April 04, 2005, 09:26:00 PM »
If when you finish a paragraph, you hit [Enter] twice instead of just once, it leaves a blank line in between that and the next paragraph.  Those blank lines help a lot.

I guess my thing with saying AA doesn't work even though people may feel like it does is that sometimes something happens and we think we know the reason for it, but the thing we decide is the reason isn't really.

One of the things we went over in college was they'd put a cat or a rat or a pigeon in a box, and they'd put a lever in the box, or a button, that would open the door and let the critter out of the box.

Well, eventually the critter would accidentally hit the lever or the button and get out of the box.

It turns out that if you keep putting the critter back in the box, it doesn't learn to go right over and push the button or move the lever.  What it does is goes through a little ritual where it does over and over again the sequence of events that happened right before and up to when the box opened (including hitting the button or moving the lever).

The pigeon thinks*** that turning around in circles pecking in a little dance is part of the process that opens the door and is essential to getting the door open.

The cat thinks it's got to rub up against the pole in the middle of the box, then roll over on its back, then....etc. until it hits the button.

And so forth--the animals develop these rituals that they clearly think are helping them open the box and are part of opening the box, but they're not.

You could put an animal in a box that didn't have the button or the lever and it would keep doing the whole ritual until it gave up.

The difference with humans is that we're a little more savvy about noticing there are such things as buttons or levers, but we're still prone to superstitious behaviors the same way cats, rats, or pigeons are.

Sometimes the superstitious behavior is purely personal, like a lucky sweater.  Or attending a certain kind of meeting.

What I think happens is that people who are already motivated to quit drinking go to AA, and the people that keep going are the ones that are *still* motivated to quit drinking.  I think the ones that are in remission would be in remission anyway without AA---or would be doing just as well with a garden variety support group or a couple of good friends that would encourage them.  Which is kinda what the people who stop drinking *without* going to AA do.

I have a friend who recognized he was an alcoholic and stopped drinking because he saw a movie on TV.  The movie had some guy whose life was a mess sitting in a pshrink's office and the guy asked something like, "What am I going to do?" and the pshrink said, "First, stop drinking."

For some reason those words stuck for my friend, and he stopped drinking.  Spontaneous remission.

He stayed in remission for the rest of his life.  He ended up dying last year in a car wreck that was the other guy's fault (yes, my friend was sober).

My friend *did* get, after several years, to the point that he could have one drink and then stop.  He would, very rarely, if it was a social occasion where drink was appropriate, have that one drink.  And then he'd stop.  He never went back to getting drunk.

Just because you're in remission and you're in AA doesn't mean AA did it or even helped do it.

I don't care if you go.

I don't care if practically everyone with a drinking problem goes.


Let me share a personal story:

When I'm off my meds, and I feel bad---particularly before I was diagnosed and knew there was anything wrong---I would come up with all sorts of reasons why I was upset and hurting and feeling bad.  I would come up with all kinds of things that upset me, or made me feel worthless, or made me feel guilty, or made me mad, or made me sad, or made me not want to get out of bed and face the day, or made me giddy, etc.

But the reactions I had were *disproportional*---and that's the key---to the "reasons" I found for why I did what I did.

The "reasons" were wrong.

I felt those ways, disproportionately, because I had a mental illness and my brain chemistry and physiology was screwed.

I found this out when they got me on the right medicines and my reactions started being proportional to the events.

*Most* people, when they see themselves in the mirror and don't like the way they look that day, or they have a squabble with a friend, or a friend blows them off (for something totally unrelated to them, it turns out later), or even when a loved one dies----*Most* people do not get so unable to cope with that and feel so overwhelmed by feelings about those things that they go crawl inside a bottle for months.

*Most* people don't go out and get trashed, a lot, when they feel good and have something to celebrate

The reaction (getting drunk a lot) is disproportionate to the stimulus, and sometimes misinterprets events in a negative, personal way when they're nothing to do with the person.  Or goes to excess getting over-giddy about a party or celebration or whatever.

What I'm saying is the events are not why people drink, just like the events I was experiencing were not why I was having depressed feelings or manic feelings.

The screwed up brain biology is why people *overreact* to events by getting drunk, over and over again.  Until they're trapped in a vicious cycle of getting drunk because they feel worthless because they're a drunk.

Alcoholics don't all have such tragic lives when they start drinking too much.  They're not "driven" to drink by events---plenty of people live through similar events and *don't* start drinking too much.  Pretty much whatever tragedy or success you can come up with, plenty of non-alcoholics have been there, too.

The drinking is an excessive reaction to events.

The events aren't why the alcoholic reacts excessively.  The events aren't causing the drinking.

Once the brain problem is triggered, it's the brain problem causing the overreaction that causes the craving (compulsion).  And failing to control the compulsion *that time* causes the drinking.

"One day at a time" is, at least, an AA saying that is a pretty fair statement of how to cope with a compulsion.

Anyway, that's what I think.

I think the people who get better at AA get better because they decided to stop drinking and started finding ways to not overreact to events in their lives, not because of AA.

Timoclea
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #169 on: April 04, 2005, 10:00:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-04-04 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

What I think happens is that people who are already motivated to quit drinking go to AA, and the people that keep going are the ones that are *still* motivated to quit drinking. I think the ones that are in remission would be in remission anyway without AA---or would be doing just as well with a garden variety support group or a couple of good friends that would encourage them. Which is kinda what the people who stop drinking *without* going to AA do.


Yup, talismans are powerful, even if you know they're just tokens. When my dad decided to quit drinking, he started buying lotto tickets. It may seem silly, but he was just about the most obsessive penny pincher, financial planner, etc. there ever was. One reason he wanted to quit was because of the cash it was costing him and how much it made him feel like those damned fools playing the lotto.

So he figured out what he had been spending and spent exactly that much on the tickets. He kept every one of them, too, as a reminder and because the fine print indicates that you can use them to claim a tax credit in the event you ever actually win any large amount.

When he didn't need it any more, he quit playing the lotto and bought himself a nice chunk of land out in the country. And, I'm told, he'd have himself a beer or three w/ the neighbors from time to time, but never made an expensive habit of it again.

I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it

--Harry S. Truman

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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #170 on: April 05, 2005, 05:19:00 AM »
T,
 I am not annoyed, surprised, angered or anything of that sort with you and your opinions. I'm just pointing out that you are quite the contradictor. But enoughs enough. I'm done proving myself. I will leave you the lasting thought of you had the choice to respond or not. You did. I didn't force you to respond. If you had said you were done why did you respond? Interesting.
Absolutism isn't always bad. However, I find it interesting that you didn't even take a look at what I pointed out to you.
Good luck. Keep fighting the good fight. Believe in what you believe.
It's not about who's right and who's wrong. It's about tact and truth. I am not trying to rile you up. Just trying to expand things.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #171 on: April 05, 2005, 12:31:00 PM »
I agree with you that there are people who get better without AA. For sure. I mean I have known some who stopped doing crystal without any treatment or NA or anything. The thing I see that is concerning is she isnt any better. She isnt doing drugs, but she is the same way she was when she was doing drugs (except for the stealing and the crazy mood swings.) I deffinetly think that there are reasons people drink. Not all of them make sense. You were unhappy for a reason you couldnt control. You have bi-polar. But alot of alcoholics dont have a brain disorder that causes them to drink. When you start drinking heavily, you can certainly get your brain used to alcohol. Used to the need for that drug when you feel bad or when you have aphysical craving or whatever. Some people who genetically have it in their4 family (like me) have an ability for alcohol to be more of a problem just because of genetics and it may not have alot to do with why they drink. But I know alot of people who just felt unhappy and insecure and drank to get over that fear. I'll tell you about my mother in law. Big time drug addict and alcohlic. She is still an alcoholic but dosnt do drugs anymore. She has had a miserable life. Her parents were alcoholics and beat her and her 7 siblings. Her son died was murdered when he was 3 weeks old and the babysitter who did it eventually got out of jail and sued her lawyer for misrepresentaionand got a 1,000,000.00 settlement while my husband and his mom got 8,000.00. She has been in abusive relationship after another and my husband has been abused by them as well. I think she chooses alot of her drama, but that is what she knows. She dosnt know sober people. She has told me on several occasions that she just neeeds a drink so she can socialize and "be herself". She showed up drunk to the hospital the day her granddaughter was born. I think AA could help her alot. She has tried thereapy alot, getting rid of her friends, moving, trying to just stop, going somewhere to withdrawl and coming back sober, support from friends, ect. But she has never tried AA. i think it might help her. Plus she could see that there are people like her who have similar backgrounds in life and their drinking who found a way to quit.

I think the way one feels about themselves has a lot to do with why they trash their bodies with too much booze and drugs. Not too many alcoholics feel really good about themselves while in their drinking. And many I know who just stopped without any help are not happy. Are not doing well. They may not be drinking but they are still dramatic, depressed, people. But the people I know who quit and got help in AA actually work on their life and thier problems, find a solution and are always seeking to better themselves and are therefore happy and content.

And it is hard for either one of us to say events are or are not the reason why someone drinks. Everyone drinks excessivly for their own reasons. i know for me that is why i drank. It is impossible for you to know if that is why someone drinks or not.

Its true alot of people dont drink and have similar situations as my mother in law. But they may have chosen another way to deal with it unhealthily. My husband dosnt drink and hes had a horrible life. But he will smoke pot to deal with his feelings when he dosnt want to think about  stuff. That isnt ok either. Or take my step mom who has had a hard life. She dosnt do any substances but she is the meannest, rudest person alot of the time. She has her nice moments, but she is for the most part unbearable to deal with.

And events trigger emotions. I am not saying the event causes the drinking, it is the emotion sprung form the event that causes a person to drink and numb that out. I see that happen alot. People get drunk to forget their problems and that is simply unhealthy. And if they do that and can stop and deal wiht it, then they are not an alcohlic. But if they do that and cant stop then they are.

"I think the people who get better at AA get better because they decided to stop drinking and started finding ways to not overeact to events in their lives, not because of AA."

Where do you think they learned to do that? Not on their own! It is because they wen tot AA and work steps and talk to other recovering peopel that they learned the tricks of the trade so to speak. They have been doing the same thing for so long that they got used to it. Aa helped them see that that isnt the only way. How do you explain the transformation? YOu think they went to meetings and did steps and all that and realized outside of that that they needed to stop overreacting to their events? I think it is silly to say a person who goes to AA got better but not because they were going to AA, but just because they were not drinking. It takes alot of work to change a habit and along time. If they knew how to do that already than why did they join AA?

The truth of the matter is everone is different. Their reasons for drinking are different, their backrounds are different, thier drinking is even different. Your life dosnt have to be complete shit from drinking to be an alcohlic. Ive known people who had a good job and kept it, had a family and kept it, had money and kept it. But they had a mental and physical addictin to alcohol and needed help with that. Soem choose AA, some not. I think it is a rad program and anyone could utalize steps in thier life. There are some that are simply good rules of thumb to live by and I appreciate that about AA. I amy not go all the time anymore, but I havnt stopped using the principles in my everyday life. I may still "mess up" in my life, make mistakes, and be depressed. But now I know that I can change my behavior and I know different ways to deal with the situations in my life and with the emotions that overwhelm me sometimes.
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Offline The Graduate

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« Reply #172 on: April 05, 2005, 01:48:00 PM »
Actually a habit does not take that long to break. I know they call that a craving in AA. They are correct in that after just over a month it is no longer a habit. So to say people need AA for extended periods due to a habitual need for alcohol is untrue. (After that point it is probably purely in their head).

Now as for why does AA work for some...it is a question nobody can answer. You may have amusing little stories about this person or thats experience...But that doesn't make it fact.

My opinion AA is probably successful for some b/c they want it to be. Maybe it just is a good fit to their personality. Maybe the moon was in Venus the first meeting they ever attended...point is nobody knows so get off T's back b/c nobody has the magical answer only opinions.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #173 on: April 05, 2005, 02:01:00 PM »
A habit takes a while to break. I didnt say it took a lifetime. Here let me speak from my personal experience. Just because I am sober and dotn have the habit of drinking anymore, dosnt mean I am fixed and have no problems in my life. I still have the same issues I had when I was drinking that come up from time to time. But AA helped me learn how to deal with the emotions, the feelings, the situations as they come up in my life. So the habit of drinkin dosnt take forever to fix but the emotions and feelings associated with my drinking habit are still a problem that I need the principles and the tings i learned in AA to help me deal with it. i hope that makes sense.


I actually said the exact same thing you said in so many words. I speak from my experience and the experience of those I know. I am not speaking for everyone. I said it is impossible for anyone to know if AA works for them or not. it is impossible to know why it works because every alcoholic is different. So you reiterated what I said. The only fact I stated as fact was my personal experience and the expereinces of those around me. You must not have been reading the whole conversation.

I am not on Ts "back". If you think that then you dont understand what a debate is. I am not doing anything but having a healthy debate with her. I havnt beliitled her, said she was an idiot, or attacked her as a person, so kindly mind your own buiseness. If she has a problem with anything Im saying, then I woudl appereciat it if she woudl address me. I havnt heard any complaints so far and I have been very open to what she has to say and agree with her on many points, so you dont know what your talking about and maybe you should read the whole thing before you make judgements about anything. T, do you feel I am being rude to you? I am on your back? Do you feel I havnt been open to you and havnt been open to what you have to say? I am a reasonable person and look at things from all sides. That is what a debate is.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #174 on: April 05, 2005, 04:31:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-04-04 19:00:00, Antigen wrote:


Yup, talismans are powerful, even if you know they're just tokens.


Oz never did give nothin' to the Tin Man, that he didn't, didn't already have.
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #175 on: April 06, 2005, 04:37:00 AM »
Graduate,
  Off of T's back? Wasn't aware she was on it. Different things work for different people. No one goes through life having the antidote to every ailment. It's about finding what works for that person and if it doesn't work then move onto the next thing. To say that AA is bad is false. AA may be bad for some but for others work. You all have failed to come up with a treatment you feel is helpful. Our point is that To deem something as unnecessary or bad is wrong. Who are you to say that it won't work for anyone? It is not something that is forced. Therefore if those who don't feel it works for them may choose to find a different method to help them.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #176 on: April 06, 2005, 10:10:00 AM »
Perri, you and Buzzkill seem to be the only regular posters around here that actually think and make sense.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #177 on: April 06, 2005, 10:17:00 AM »
I guess my experience in this is that my family's get togethers were full of drama and not too happy until just about everybody in the family ended up, for one reason or another, put on psychiatric medication.

Just about everyone is *much better now*.

A lot of times people's "drama" and various other unhealthy ways of dealing with things are symptoms that something's wrong with their brains.

I won't go so far as to say "always".  

The thing is, when people have trauma in their lives, it makes permanent biological changes in their brains---it does damage.  Adrenaline and some of the chemicals that get dumped into your system while something traumatic is happening to you burn the memories into your brain.

That's why soldiers have such vivid, troubling memories of the horrible things they've seen---memories that never seem to fade with time, never really go away, and come back over and over in very vivid nightmares.

I have a Vietnamese friend whose dad worked for the CIA in the war.  She was on the last boat out of Saigon.  She saw a lot of horrible things that small children should never see.  Those memories are burned into her brain, vividly.  They haunt her all the time.

She's a basically happy woman, she's gone on with her life, but those memories of dead bodies and the very horrible ways they died and the very horrible things done to those bodies are burned into her brain, permanently.

Genetics are where we start from.  They're where our brains start from.  But things that happen to us make changes to our brains.  Some of those changes are good ones, like learning.  Some of those changes are not good.

We're finding out now that *some* of the psychiatric drugs have the effects they do because they actually fix *some* kinds of damage.  Like when the damage is to some of the cells that aren't nerve cells themselves but help the nerve cells out---some of those cells start recovering and healing and getting back to normal levels on the right meds.

Therapy and positive thinking no doubt also make changes in your brain.  So do supplements like Ginko biloba or Omega 3 fish oils.  And depending on the problem, they can be good medicine. (Like ginko biloba actually helps some with alzheimers--not anywhere near a cure, but it helps).  I'm not saying therapy does nothing.

I'm saying it's very important to keep pursuing direct medical interventions looking for effective ones, because, used right, those and therapy support each other and work together.

My problem with AA is that I don't want it preached as "the answer" to the extent that it drowns out awareness of the need for development of medical interventions.

And since you're not doing that, I'm not trying to say anyone *here* is preaching AA as the One True Answer.

But it does get done, and that's a lot of any problem I have with AA.

I still think it's a placebo, but I'm all for placebos---particularly when there's not much better available.

Timoclea
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Offline The Graduate

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« Reply #178 on: April 06, 2005, 12:11:00 PM »
I'll be glad to mind my own business when you stop posting on a public forum.

You also said something about I don't know what a debate is...do me a favor stick to your opinions...you don't know me or what I do or do not know.

Of course AA doesn't work for everyone. Nothing is a blanket answer for all.

One more thing I wasn't actually disagreeing with you guys on all points so maybe it would help you to reread my post (as you suggested I do)also.

The worst part is you guys really can not fathom how anyone else perceives your posts. It immediately becomes mind your business, you don't know what a debate is, T can defend herself etc. If this is a debate you are right I do it differently.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #179 on: April 06, 2005, 04:29:00 PM »
The only reason I told you to kindly mind your own business is because you were implying I was doing something wrong by debating wiht her. On the contrary i find her views insightful and well thought out. If you wanted to write me directly about your disagreements with something I said then by all means i woud love to discuss. However, I do not find it your buisiness to say i am bothering someone and am "on their back" simply because I didnt agree wiht them about everything they said. That is inconidearte and entirely not true.
The reason i said that about you not understandig debate is if uyou would read all we have said back and forth you would see that nothing was said that is out of the ordinary for a debate. I actually agree with her about many things so i cannot see how oyu thought I was "on her back".

Your post was very short and easy to read and I thought the first part of it was great, particularly because it is what I just said so i agree wiht you. It seemed you were jumping to conclusions about a debate going on with someone else and were accusing me falsly which I do not appreciate. I was merely trying to show you that the conversation going on between us was interestig and both sides of it were well thought out and had excellent points and therefore I was not at all on her back. She didnt complain to me so i didnt se it as your place to defend her over it. If she didnt like it she shouldnt post on a public forum eirhter, however she said nothing of it to me.

I think she's a big girl and can defend herself. She seems smart enough anyway.
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