My Opinions

[Anonymous]

Dang, I told myself I wasn't going to have to have the last word.  *sigh*  I suppose the whole lesson from all this is that Perri and I have more flaws in our occasional methods of discussion in common than I would have thought.  Rather than saying just, "same to you plus double" like a little kid, I'll just say that the flaws that irritate us most in others tend to be the ones we struggle with ourselves. Q.E.D.

T.

[Anonymous]

I think on a daily basis we are put in a position to either have a positive attitude about life or hate everything. I mean bad things happen for no reason to everyone. Everyone handles it differently. Soem in an unhealthy way and some in a healthy way. I could get a medical bill for 3,000.00 when i only make 5.50 an hour at a part time job. now I cou8ld either whine and complain and feel sorry for myself and get nothing accomplished or I could figure out a way to pay for it and move on. Now I dont know what anyone else learned in the program but I learned that my attitude about life is my choice. i can either accept things or l;et them destroy me. I learned that I can overcome anything with a positive attitude and yes sometimes support. I think support groups are a great idea. And not just for alcoholics. For those who have lost someone, people who were raped. people who were adopted, Hepatitis c survivors, Ect. People need support am I right? It isnt just alcoholics who search for this but many peopel find it a good tool for many different problems. And hey if it works it works. Now advocating against the programs that dont work is a good idea. If it aint working fix it, but if it aint broke dont fix it. I know the program I went to was always changing and adjusting to best help the kids there. It isnt perfect however. but just because it isnt perfect dosnt mean it dosnt work. No recovery method is perfect because everyone is different, wouldnt you agree with that. I mean what is good for one individual may not be good for another, but it still worked for that person. So to say that the program I went to is wrong and dosnt work is not entirely true. it may be true of others but dont generalize abou tall programs just because you have beef with some.

[Perrigaud]

Sure T :wave: [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-04-01 04:54 ]

[Antigen]

On 2005-03-31 17:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

Where do you get that it destroys self esteem

Well, the first step is probably the first clue. Admit you're powerless. Think about that command critically for just a moment. Then, in the context of the program, admit you're powerless or you will surely die drunken, smelly and alone in the world! Good grief! Does it get any more obvious than that?

Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author

[Antigen]

On 2005-03-31 17:09:00, Anonymous wrote:

 I could get a medical bill for 3,000.00 when i only make 5.50 an hour at a part time job. now I cou8ld either whine and complain and feel sorry for myself and get nothing accomplished or I could figure out a way to pay for it and move on. Now I dont know what anyone else learned in the program but I learned that my attitude about life is my choice. i can either accept things or l;et them destroy me.

What you're describing is a false dilemma. And Program language and ideas are just loaded with them. Either you could whine and do nothing, or you could pay the bill and forget about it. But there are many other choices. If you feel the bill is unjust, you can challenge it. You can negotiate. You may be surprised to find that, if you act in a timely and businesslike manner, most medical billing companies are happy to give you a reasonable discount when you point out that you'd still be giving them more than the insurance company would settle for, and all w/o any expensive collection costs. You could also settle the bill (negotiated or not) AND go further and educate yourself on the problem of spiraling medical costs and consider involving yourself in addressing the problem in some constructive manner.

That's what we're doing here. This involves discussing the problem, trying to identify the nature of it and possible solutions. If you want to call that whining, fine. But I think it's very rude.

Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years.
--John Adams, U.S. President

[Anonymous]

Ok you said exactly what I just said in so many words. i said you can figure out a way to pay for it. I didnt say you had to pay it all up front. I happen to know what Im talking about because I do have a medical bill over 2,500.00 right now and I did figure out a way to pay for it on a billing schedule. I am on a paymenyt plan. So you just reiterated what I said in a different way. I am not an idiot. Being under the poverty level has made me aware of how to pay for bills and negotiate with billing companies. So you were misinterpreting what I said. What I meant by whining was I could be all depress4ed about it and feel helpless and hopless. Alot of peple in that situation who make very little and support a family (like myself) feel that way. but I learned that it is ok to feel that way, but not to let it destroy yourself and not let those feelings create a fsense of helplessnes. And I dont think you understand what admitting powerless ness means. it means that this substance that you have no control over (what alcoholic do you know can control thier drinking?) you just cant ever get control over. It is a way to remind yourself that this substance has a power over you so you should stay away from it. Now you cant deny the truth and that is that people who have  adependancy on drugs or alcohol have a problem controlling that. That is fact. If they could control thamselves than it wouldnt be a dependancy problem and they woldnt need a recovery program. people gop to Aa because they cant control their drinking. and it is silly to think that you can just stop. Go to a meth addict in their addiction and tell them to stop and see how easy it is for them.

[Anonymous]

Admitting powerlesness is not going to make you feel bad about yourself. Doing drugs and destroying your body is going to hurt your self esteem worse than going to AA. And the first step is a guideline. They dont say you will die a horrrible death if you dont follow the steps exactly. No one alcoholic in AA works the steps exactly the same as any other alcoholic in AA. Plus there are other steps. What is wrong with them? Having a higher power (which does not mean God it could mean whatever you want) helps a person to gtive up control. As humans we want to control everything in our lives, when the truth is things happen and we cant control anything but how we react to it. I think that is a pretty smart thing to do. If I tried to control everyhtining in my life i would go crazy! Sometimes you have to give up your contro and say it is out of my hands and i just have to trust myself to get through it and trust that it will work out the way it is supposed to. The steps help. When I went to Aa all the time I didnt do the steps the way everyone did. I also didint think they were the only thing I needed to do to get better. They were just tools to use if I needed them. OYU make it sound as if AA is a nazi organization that tries to make everyone that goes there into little molds of sober freaks. That isnt so. Everyone in AA is an individual and is unique. Everyone learns the same stuff but uses it in a differnet way for themselves.

[Anonymous]

The whole first step says "We admitted we were powerless OVER ALCOHOL, and that our lives had become unmanagable."
It dosnt say we admitted we were powerless over ourselves, that we have no power to change. It say s we admitted powerlessnes over alcohol. And that is what an alcohlic is. Someone who has no power over their drinking. Someone who has no control over thier drinking. You do have control over changing yourself though. You do have the power to help yourself quit. But you cant get to that point if you think you can still control your drinking. I think for alot of people who want to quit, they get to a point where so much is out of control with their lives and with their drinking or drugging or whatever tht they realize they need to stop and get help. Not just people who choose AA, but anyone who wants to quit has to realize there is a reason to quit. REmember the people who wrote the big book were alcoholics too. Not doctors or scientists or professors, but real alcoholics. They didnt write the steps with any degree or anything they wrote them to say this is what works for me and I hope it could help you cuz it seems to help other alcoholics like us.

[Anonymous]

Come on. We all whine about stuff now and again. And besides, I was adressing myself. If I was being rude to myself I think thats my problem. But yes, we all do it. And my point was whining dosnt solve anyhting. Coming up with a solution isnt whining, Im saying when you complain about it and dont want to find a solution, then it is whining, and people have a tendancy to do that.

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-01 15:07:00, Anonymous wrote:

The whole first step says "We admitted we were powerless OVER ALCOHOL, and that our lives had become unmanagable."
It dosnt say we admitted we were powerless over ourselves, that we have no power to change.

Well who the hell keeps pouring the alcohol down your throat and wouldn't a simple restraining order of assault complaint do the trick? Or does the alcohol follow you home, sneak into your house and, of it's own volition, spike your morning coffee?

No, powerlesness in this context most definitely means powerless over your own behavior, your own choices.

But there are so many other clues. Like, for instance, you can spot a regular AA meeting place by all the sad sacks hanging around outside, compulsively chain smoking and looking like their dog, their dad and their best friend died that day.

But what else would you expect? The entire philosophy of AA is built on obsessing on acohol. You just replace an obsession w/ drinking w/ an obsession w/ not drinking and w/ focusing daily on blaming all your problems on what comes down to your own behavior and choices.

Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734

[Anonymous]

Ok I think your generalizing alcoholics just a bit. They are not all sad looking pathetic losers, which is what you make it sound like. Actually they are quite enjoyable and intelectually stimulating people. I find after a meeting is some of the most enjoyable times of AA actually. When you get the opportunity to converse with other people like you but not like you. I think its extreme to catogorize alcoholics like that. OYu can twist the 1st step to mean what oyu wqant but the fact is that alcoholics dont consider it to mean powerlessness in their whole life. And I think their view of it is definetly important. So why do you bash it so? If Im telling you that isnt what we consider it to mean than who cares what other peopel think it might mean to them. Just becaus eyou interpret it that way dosnt mean we all do. I guess that is just oyur opinion. I respect that, but I just dont think you are even open to considering that it means something else. It seems you are so convinced it is horrible that nothing I can say could help you see that just isnt so. And just to keep things straight, alcoholism isnt just a mental addiction, it is a physical addiction. Like ciggarettes. Who do you think so many people are so hooked on them? Yes it is a choice. YOu dont have to do it. But would you not agree that once someone gets into a habit (physical or mental) it takes a long time and alot of work to change that habit? And if AA helps change that habit, than what is wrong witgh that? Just because it isnt the method you might choose dosnt mean it dosnt work. That is such a silly thing to say. I mean I wouldnt say that just because something wouldnt work for me that means it is evil and wont work for anyone. if it helps someone to admit they have lost control of their drinkng and their life to stay quit than whats the problem? Sorry if it isnt worded the way you want it to be, but your interpretation is not the common interpretation of the first step. If you even considered that it mean s what I say it means, than woudl you be able to say it makes soem sense to admit that?

[Anonymous]

It is also a bit extreme to say the entire philosophy of alcoholics annonymous is built on an obsession with alcohol. Yes to an extent they talk about it alot. But it is aprogram bases on a persons addiction to alcohol and helping to stop that addiction, so what do you expect? That they will never address drinking in a drinking recovery program? It isnt all about a drinkhng problem, it is about working on the things that cause you to feel the need to drink. And if it works, than what is the big deal? I think tis odd you find it so wrong for someone to find a solution to their problem when you were just talking abou thte best way to handle a problem is to find a solutionthat work sfor you. If the solution of AA works for an alcoholic than what is wrong with that?

[Timoclea]

There are any number of rational reasons for someone to still be going to AA.  For example:

1) They like the coffee
2) they like the people
3) they haven't had a chance to look at the research on its efficacy or lack thereof themselves
4) they think they've found a factor the research overlooked about why it would work for some, hurt others, and *look* statistically neutral when you average those groups together, but that they're in one of the "works" subgroup
5) their family members believe in AA and will get off their back if they go
6) well, I can't think of a 6, but there may be a rational 6 I've overlooked.

I don't really have a problem with someone, for example, thinking a black cat crossing their path, or breaking a mirror, or the number 13, is bad luck.  Or being leery of those things personally.

I don't really have a problem with someone, for example, thinking eating purple jellybeans is gonna cure his cold and downing a whole bag of the things when he first gets the sniffles.

I really don't have a problem with the attitude of, "I just want to try it and what the hell, it can't hurt."

I do have a problem with people coming out and affirmatively saying that black cats or 13 really are unlucky and purple jelly beans really do cure colds.

There's a big difference in, "What the hell, can't hurt, *I* want to do this," versus, "This works."

Even when it's said as, "This works for me."

I don't really have a problem with, "I feel like this helps me, I don't know for sure whether it really does or not, but I feel like it does so I'm going to do it anyway."

I do have a problem with, "This works for me.  This helps me," when all the hard evidence is that it just doesn't work.

For me, the admission that one *could* be wrong about whether it's actually helping you, but that for your own reasons, including *feeling like* it's helping you, you want to do it anyway---that admission that the objective facts don't support you and you're taking a certain leap of faith makes all the difference in the world.

"It helps me" as a statement of fact implies that it works and could help others.

"I feel like it helps, but I know I could be wrong" is entirely different---it admits that there are facts out there that other people might want to take into consideration in deciding what they're going to do.

"It helps me" is a testimonial.

"I feel like it helps, but I could be wrong" is a statement of personal preference.

That's how it comes across to me, and that's why one version of that statement punches my buttons and gets my back up, and the other version just gets me to smile and nod and think, "Cool.  Ain't nobody's business if you do."

One statement *to me* tastes like fraud, and the other tastes like a simple personal preference about how to spend your time or cope with life or whatever.

I'm a writer.  I deal with tiny shades of meaning in different ways of saying something all day long.  It's what I do.  Sometimes if I'm typing fast and don't proofread, it doesn't come through very well. :smile:

Anyway, those tiny differences in where someone's coming from make a difference *to me* in whether I find what they're saying irritating, or instead find it just a mildly interesting statement about their personal preferences.

That's just how the different ways of someone saying why they go come across to me.

Timoclea

A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

[Deborah]

6) well, I can't think of a 6, but there may be a rational 6 I've overlooked.


Uh,  they want the six month chip.... :grin:

[Troll Control]

One great thing about being a black-out drunk is that you get to meet "new" people every day.