Who are You to Judge?

[Nihilanthic]

Yeah it did suck. I had to be 'mature' when desired and be 'immature' (or have to accept ridiculous orders or situations) when desired, held to the standard of an adult but given none of the freedoms.

Plus, public school is a damn joke, you're hormonal as hell, and honestly I would have rather have just slept from 10-18 years of age.

Republican n. A liberty despising, money worshiping, control freak. Democrat n. A liberty despising, social engineering, control freak.
-- Anonymous

[RN on Board]

PERRIGARD wrote: "I also feel that those who have mental disabilities do not belong in these programs at all. I am upset that that is the case."
Because people with mental disabilities ARE in these programs they must be better regulated and they must abide by the laws that have been established to protect the mentally ill. THEY ARE NOT DOING SO. There have been numberous reports by staff and patients that facilities like Majestic Ranch, Casa By the Sea, Tranquility Bay, Provo Canyon School and many others are using isolation, hog-tying, forced drugging and exposure to the cold as punishment.  This type of treatment is not only inhumane - it is illegal.  What's particularly outrageous is the fact that it is being done to children under the guise of therapy.  
Remember - one man's medicine is another man's poison.  Just because this may have helped you, doesn't mean it is helpful or therapeutic to the general population of youth.

[Perrigaud]

RN on the Board,
  First off it's PERRIGAUD. Now, I never claimed it to be a fix it all for everyone. I never said that everyone needs this or they'll be deadorinjail. I even stated something along those lines in the beginning paragraph. People really need to start paying attention to what is being typed.
I'm aware abuse happens and that certain people don't belong there. Please pay attention.

[Antigen]

So where to now? You're an extremely intelligent and thoughtful young lady. You must know that that sets you apart from most of your peers, even those who are doing pretty well for themselves.

How would you recomend WWASP fix their problems? What should they do differently so that only kids like you were, those who you believe can benefit, land up in their programs? And what else could they fix?

I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
--Robert Frost, American poet

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Perrigaud]

Antigen,
  Ok this is what I think should happen to help get rid of the crap that goes on with the program. First off I believe that a mandatory analysis run by a licensed pychologist should be run. This would eliminate the admittance of mentaly diabled teens being abused for things that are beyond their control. Second an evaluation of the family both individually and as a family. This in turn will eliminate the admittance of teens that have parents who are taking the easy way out or even step parents that are trying to get rid of the kid (sad but it does happen). Third; since there seems to be an ongoing discrepancy on the program daily functions and what the parents understand I believe that a better contract (parent's sign their kids off) should be made stating clearly what will go on.
These are just ideas but they still would help. The sad part is that the CEOS wouldn't want to do this because that would mean that their wouldn't be as many lucrative assets. Sad.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps if the ICPC was enforced uniformly throughout the country, your suggestions would become a reality. Unfortunately, each state seems to interpret the compact differently, some ignoring it completely.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-03-15 00:27:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Antigen,

  Ok this is what I think should happen to help get rid of the crap that goes on with the program. First off I believe that a mandatory analysis run by a licensed pychologist should be run. This would eliminate the admittance of mentaly diabled teens being abused for things that are beyond their control. Second an evaluation of the family both individually and as a family. This in turn will eliminate the admittance of teens that have parents who are taking the easy way out or even step parents that are trying to get rid of the kid (sad but it does happen). Third; since there seems to be an ongoing discrepancy on the program daily functions and what the parents understand I believe that a better contract (parent's sign their kids off) should be made stating clearly what will go on.

These are just ideas but they still would help. The sad part is that the CEOS wouldn't want to do this because that would mean that their wouldn't be as many lucrative assets. Sad. "

Sounds like we mostly agree on solutions.

As long as you agree that talk (on the part of the programs) is cheap and that they would need to be *required* by law to do it and there would need to be adequate penalties, enforcement, and funding for same to put the solutions into practice.

Regulations clarifying the Interstate Compact would help, as would a clear tasking for who was expected to enforce it (at the federal level), adequate funding for enforcement, and clear setting of enforcement as a priority.

Since NIMH obviously understands the issues involved, I personally think they would be great candidates for an increased budget and mission to hire enforcement personnel and enforce those rules.

Hell, every other alphabet soup agency has its own  personal cops and power to levy fines and set regulations.  Why not NIMH?  At least they "get" that there's a problem.

Timoclea

[Antigen]

See there, now? In one fairly brief, concise paragraph, you managed to reach the bottom line.

On 2005-03-15 00:27:00, Perrigaud wrote:

The sad part is that the CEOS wouldn't want to do this because that would mean that their wouldn't be as many lucrative assets.

That's my take on it too. There's just one other thing I would add, and you may or may not agree w/ this. I think these programs should be voluntary on the part of the kids. Maybe on that day when you went into CCM you would not have been willing to go. But, the way you describe your state of mind at the time, I'm guessing that there were days when you would have taken an offer for a truely voluntary placement.

I've heard from several friends that programs like Outward Bound are worthwhile. But they don't take involuntary placements.

But, as you note, if they implimented your recomendations and or mine, the kind of parents to whom they've been marketing wouldn't bite.

I honestly don't think there's a market for intensive residential treatment for 50k kids per year in this country. Kids ta' day are just not anywhere near that messed up. And there's not a whole lot of money to be had from simple, legitimate retreats. All the money comes from people who are scared out of their wits and not thinking clearly.

When I say we should shut down the industry, that's what I'm talkin' about. Not that we should do away w/ legitimate residential treatment or boarding schools, but that this fear mongering and gouging has GOT to go!

I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
--Susan B. Anthony, U.S. reformer and suffragist

[Perrigaud]

Antigen,
   Maybe I didn't get what you said for some reason. Did you say that kids aren't that messed up these days? If you did I will deny that. I believe kids are that bad today. Not all of them but a lot of them.
Voluntarily go? Even though I knew I neeed to go I wouldn't have gone. I was in a cycle that was not good. I was comfortable yet not at the same time. I knew how to deal with what I had (unhealthily) but wouldn't have changed on my own. I needed help. Maybe eventually I would've gotten a therapist but not at that point. It's like an unhealthy relationship. The abused partner (any type of abuse) knows it's bad and that they shouldn't stick around yet they continue to do so. Some get out of it on their own and others don't.

[Antigen]

Well, don't believe everything we like to remember about the old days. Kids today are nowhere near as bad as we make them out to be. The fact is that juvenile crime and teen pregnancy have dropped and drug use is just about exactly what it's been since we started keeping track in the `70's.

We just don't like to remember what assholes we were when we were kids. Every generation is like that. But every generation doesn't feel the need to ship their kids off to have them reformed by force. The industry is new. And I think the perception of rebellious kids as a dire emergency is relatively new. But kids today aren't really much different from kids yesterday.

Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.

--Thomas Carlyle

[Perrigaud]

Yeah? What about teen suicide, suicide attempts, kids being tried as adults, anorexia, bulimia, and such. There are a lot more on diversion than there were in the 90's. Also a lot of them don't explode/inmplode with all their issues unitl later on. DUI's are high amongst the 20's.
Anyhow, not to say that every teen with issues is going to end up like this. Most of them grow up and out of it.
Kids these days are seeing a lot more than the kids in the 80's. Aids, rape (that has been never reported), incest, harder drugs, std's, and the fear of violence in school.

[Antigen]

No, really! Romeo and Juliette were fictional characters. But the story is a classic because it's so true to life.

I don't know if you're familiar w/ Old Testament stories or not. But the Prodigal Son is an interesting one. In the context of the culture, then and even to this day, when a son asks for his inheritance while the father is alive, it's the same as making a public statement wishing the father dead. Then what does he do? He goes off to the city and blows it all on drugs and loose women. (yes, drugs. wine was not the only intoxicating substance available)

DUI among kids is actually down in recent years. When I was a kid, it was legal and socially acceptable for an adult to have a few drinks and then drive home. They only started defining specific limits when breath testing became widely available. Before that, the roadside sobriety test (aka stupid human tricks) was the state of the art. The cops encouraged people to pull off the road and take a nap or have some coffee if they started driving and found themselves to be too drunk. If they found someone drunk in their car, they'd check on them and maybe offer to drive them home so long as they were adult and non-combative. These days, we take a much dimmer view of drunk driving. That, education and a shift in public attitude, has been fairly effective at reducing drunk driving.

STDs are not new. The arcane term "whore's blooms" refers to a symptom of syphilis. Modern science has found that you can dose syphilis w/ antibiotics and found the cause of the mysterious AIDS syndrome, but not the cure. But there's not really any more sex going on than any other time. And there's not really any more or less risk to it than any other time. There's just more hysteria.

Yes, more kids are landing up under corrective control than before. Where I live now, if the parents are on good terms w/ the cops, they'd rather bring the kid home than process them through the system. The kids around here aren't much different to begin with. Maybe they're a little less desperate than back in Broward because the adults around here are just a little less hysterical.

Here's an extreme example of the kind of hysteria I'm talking about:
http://www.kfvs12.com/Global/story.asp? ... v=8H3wW8Je

There really is nothing new under the Sun.

Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-03-16 00:48:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Yeah? What about teen suicide, suicide attempts, kids being tried as adults, anorexia, bulimia, and such. There are a lot more on diversion than there were in the 90's. Also a lot of them don't explode/inmplode with all their issues unitl later on. DUI's are high amongst the 20's.

Anyhow, not to say that every teen with issues is going to end up like this. Most of them grow up and out of it.

Kids these days are seeing a lot more than the kids in the 80's. Aids, rape (that has been never reported), incest, harder drugs, std's, and the fear of violence in school. "

Here is a good debunking article:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1224

It's over 10 years old now but, as Ginger says, there is nothing new under the sun.

[Dolphin]

Who cares, really, if kids are worse today than they were in the 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's??

There are kids, like Perrigaud, like my kid, that (and me) that need(ed)effective help, regardless of who else is doing it, or what the "statistics" say.

Antigen - what I hear you saying is that since it's not that bad, in your opinion, then parents shouldn't be parents and make a decision for their child.

Odds are the kid WILL grow out of it, but what damage will they have done to their bodies and to their futures?  

I also agree that any BM or RTC is not for everyone.  It is based on a level of need.  

Perrigaud - The mental health screening is already in place with the WWASPS schools.  It's thorough and requires a physicians signature from home.  At least mine did.

[Antigen]

On 2005-03-16 12:56:00, Dolphin wrote:

Antigen - what I hear you saying is that since it's not that bad, in your opinion, then parents shouldn't be parents and make a decision for their child.

No, what I'm saying is that parents should be parents instead of shipping their kids off to someone else to raise. I know you're getting a lot of strokes lately. Trust the process, that's what "good" parents do. Oh, you were SO right to come to us BEFORE IT WAS TOO LATE!!!! That's what you're paying for, after all, and it looks like you're getting your money's worth. But it doesn't really make you a good parent. It's just false assurance.

Age is mind over matter. If you don't mind...it doesn't matter!
--  Chuck Gauran