Utah may regulate facilities

[BuzzKill]

Perri - the use of the phrase "danger to themselves or others" is what amounts to fraud. Kids get thrown in Op for any number of transgressions, that have nothing to do with being a danger to anybody. Also, likewise with the restraint situation. This has been testified to and described over and over by countless post program people.
And while I was never told anything about isolation what so ever (I was given the spiel about restraint in the case of dangerous behavior)even those who are told Isolation is a factor are not told what the reality in isolation IS. The maintaining of the forced position is something that takes place in the most brutal of prisons. No one would dream it is taking place daily in a program for teens - and its hard to believe when you learn of it. But it is a Very Common aspect of isolation WWASP style. And by the by - your parents contract has nothing to do with the one I saw. I have a parents hand book - and no where in it is anything like OP or restraint wwasp style described.
As for restraint - Most of the kids I have talked to (and its a fair number now) maintain restraint takes place from three to five times a day. The screaming that results from restraint wwasp style, coming from OP/ isolation - whatever - is a very common event.
And even when a person is told restraint is possible - you don't imagine it will be what it is. Its not supposed to hurt. But restraint WWASP style does indeed hurt - in fact - that is the whole point! Hold them down and hurt them and make them think twice before they open their mouth and say another word, or shift from the mandated position.
Its monstrous what is taking place in this Program of yours every day Perri - and you are helping to promote it. I do understand you had a different experience and you have every right to talk about your own experience - but it is just Wrong of you to insist the more brutal experience others had is not valid.

[Nihilanthic]

Cross Creek seems to have some of that elusive 'actual therapy' along with the cookie cutter seminars-for-all treatment. That, and decent conditions, for a change.

It still has the stupid level system of rewards for compliance and program acceptance whether or not you have any real problems, but she does realize that programs are not for everyone and there has to be reforms and regulations so that only the kids who would benefit from a program are in one.

Maybe CCM really IS different. Maybe she is brainwashed? I dont know. She seems coherant enough to me. At least we all agree there has to be regulation and reform and some sort of accountability for the program methods, and for that matter the seminars.

A year from now, I'll be very surprised if there is not some grand square in Baghdad that is named after President Bush.



--Pentagon advisor, Richard Perle, September 22, 2003

[cherish wisdom]

Many of these privately incarcerated children are subjected to similar behavior modification that was used in Korea and China against POW's. What happened was that some of these men began to think of their captors as their friends and that their totalitarian governements were the best on earth.  This is true of some of the program kids - they really believe that some of their captors are their best friends and that the program was the best on earth.  While others in the same program report beatings, hog tying, extreme isolation in cold OP rooms, forced drugging and other extreme and brutal mind control methods.  What's interesting is that those who praise the programs often come back years later with post traumatic stress syndrom. What they did was use  common psychological defence mechanisms - repression, rationalization and others to get through the program.  So they truly believe that the program helped them.  And what parents wants to admit that they mortgaged their home, spent tens of thousands of dollars and lost several years with their child just to have their childs brain messed with......
Every parent want to believe that they are doing the best thing for their child.....

Clancy's Law: The perceived role of governments is to deploy ever increasing resources to the attainment of  ever diminishing end results.
--Home Page

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-12 11:31:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"Cross Creek seems to have some of that elusive 'actual therapy' along with the cookie cutter seminars-for-all treatment. That, and decent conditions, for a change.



It still has the stupid level system of rewards for compliance and program acceptance whether or not you have any real problems, but she does realize that programs are not for everyone and there has to be reforms and regulations so that only the kids who would benefit from a program are in one.



Maybe CCM really IS different. Maybe she is brainwashed? I dont know. She seems coherant enough to me. At least we all agree there has to be regulation and reform and some sort of accountability for the program methods, and for that matter the seminars.

A year from now, I'll be very surprised if there is not some grand square in Baghdad that is named after President Bush.



--Pentagon advisor, Richard Perle, September 22, 2003

"

Cross Creek is the original WWASP gulag. It is their HQ, in a way. The physical conditions may be slightly better than the other concentration camps, but does that really matter? the PROGRAM is still there. The program is abusive and dangerous.

Don't forget that WWASP does not employ anyone who might challenge their methods. It is a well known fact that WWASPie "therapists" often belittle and demean the children in order to further break their spirits and crush their resistance to the program. Various survivors' statements state that the therapists' role is to assist the program to break the children down and re-wire them.

Perrigaud is very coherent. Unfortunately, she is also a WWASP graduate, who examines the matter at hand using WWASPie ideology.

[Nihilanthic]

That may be true in a sense, because it did help her change. But for her it was just a place to change, not a process that did it. She didnt take the seminars too seriously.

Is there a program influence? Duh, she was in there for like a year or more.

You're more than welcome to get an account, pm her, and talk to her like I am this moment. Shes quite smart.

All religion is dumb. It's one big story they're feeding you so you'll  behave on Earth. If there is a god, then he's a prick.
--Howard Stern, American radio personality

[Perrigaud]

Thank you Niles. Buzzkill. I have never said that all the negative statements about the program were false. Pay closer attention. The fact that you missed that proves to me that you are another person who wants to place me in this 100% all for the program. Get real. Niles is right in saying that I realize it's not for everyone. Buzzkill, because you seemed to have missed my points I have no further interest in what you have to say. My parents contract is no different than the others. I am against the abuse and the misplacement of some of the students there. I do believe in a reformation of the program. I said it once more just so you yourself can see it.
Being a WWASPie is not unfortunate for me. In the end whether I have your support or not matters not to me.
My therapist didn't belittle me. But again ASSumptions are not encouraged nor admired by me. Break spirits. What weak people you are.

[BuzzKill]

Perri - I've been reading your post steadily. I know what you've had to say. I know your a smart gal. But you Do come across as dismissing the reports of abuse and neglect. And you do have the common program grad tendency to dismiss those who challenge your programming.
"Emotional abuse my ass."
See what I mean?  
"Psychological abuse? I don't call my personal experience that at all."
You might not - but most people would.
"My parents contract is no different than the others."
Now honey - how can you know that? You can't.
"I do believe in a reformation of the program. I said it once more just so you yourself can see it. "
I know you've said this. I've watched the slow relazation that maybe something is rotten in "Denmark".
I too once thought reform was what was needed. That was early on. I have now come to the realization it is to corrupt and dangerous and I personally feel it should be closed down and the major players charged and convicted and thrown into prison.
"What weak people you are."
Now - how do you come to this conclusion? I'd rather not try and speculate.
 :question:


[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-02-12 18:07 ][ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-02-12 18:10 ]

[Antigen]

On 2005-02-12 07:40:00, BuzzKill wrote:

" Perri - the use of the phrase "danger to themselves or others" is what amounts to fraud. Kids get thrown in Op for any number of transgressions, that have nothing to do with being a danger to anybody. Also, likewise with the restraint situation. This has been testified to and described over and over by countless post program people.

This, I understand and we agree completely. Here's the addle-brained reasoning behind it.

Think about how often and how nearly uniformly Program supporters say that it saved their or their kids' lives. That is probably the most basic imperative of the common philosophy and it is meant literally. So a kid disrupting a rap or other program activity w/ a wise crack or something would, in their minds, be risking their and their peers lives, literally. Therefore, they must be restrained because, by depriving themselves and their peers of the proper enforcement of the Program, they're a risk to themselves and others.

It's exactly the same line of reasoning that makes parents think it's a really good idea to emancipate a minor so they can legally lock them out of the house. It's all to force them into the life-saving Program. So, in their minds, it would be neglectful to go on feeding, sheltering and giving comfort to the wayward kid.

I know that doesn't make any sense at all to a sane person. But when you haven't slept and you've been on edge all the time for weeks and months, well... that kind of stress can make people very suggestible.

Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author

[Perrigaud]

Buzzkill,
  Again, any form of therapy could arguably be labeled as emotional abuse. It's always taboo to deal with these things. Anyhow, take what I say how you want to. The reasoning behind my wanting the schools to refine themselves is precisely for the abuse and maltreatment that goes on. Parent's contract? Quite easily would I know the compatibility with other's contracts. My friends and I did our own research. Mind you these are friends that are graduates.
You claim to have read my posts. But had you really done that you would have seen that I don't dismiss people who challenge my programming. Niles is a good friend of mine. He is against the program. Ginger is also one I respect. There's a reason I do listen and take into account what they have to say. They challenge my beliefs and opinions in a manner that has validity. So no, if someone thinks differently I will not austersize them without a good excuse.

[Anonymous]

Again, any form of therapy could arguably be labeled as emotional abuse.

Huh?  ::noway:: First time I've heard that excuse/justification/whatever it is.

[Nihilanthic]

Sorry to be so blunt here Perrigaud, but well...

" Again, any form of therapy could arguably be labeled as emotional abuse." <- No.

There are forms that are not abusive and could not be labeled abusive at all. Part of conventiional psychotherapy is to let people "deal with their shit" without having to deal with more stress and psychological hardship. Or, in another sense, at their own pace. And thats not with pressure to move forwards.

Making something "hard"-er than it has to be isn't a good thing. I dealt with my crap without stress, crying, breakdowns, being forced, etc.

Also, another thing I'd have to point out is yeah we do challenge your beliefs and opinions, but you chose to allow us. In seminars youre too pressured to be able to say "no" and if youre a child you CANT say no unless you never want to move up or in some programs face punishment. Thats a big problem. Forcing them to go with a program to get out.

Real psychotherapy isnt programmed, it just happens. And it does work, but it takes time and a lot of people seem to not have the patience for it. Also, comparing it to a program isnt favorable for a program which often takes years.

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
--James Madison, U.S. President

[Perrigaud]

Again, the program isn't a fix it all. Going into the program you are told that things you start to work on you will be working on for the rest of your life.
And yes, any therapy can be considered emotional abuse. It depends on who is making the statement. When I say this I say that what may have worked for you may not have worked for someone else. In fact that other person may not be able to have handled it and called abuse. A therapist is there to motivate and get the ball rolling. Yes they may not be as intense as say a program but they will bring things up. Now, if people were to fix their own problems at their own pace there would be a lot of people claiming that nothing was wrong with them. If people can monitor and regulate themselves what are therapists there for? They listen but they also suggest.
I know that I personally wouldn't have done jack had someone been there to be like, "Go at your own pace. It's ok. You'll get to come to a conclusion someday." Hell no, I'd a been like Hell I aint doing anything.
This is another reason I believe the programs are helpful to people and harmful to others. It's about how an individual will respond to the type of therapy. That's why there are different types of therapies out there. Different strokes for different folks. You personally couldn't do well in the program. Whereas I did well and ended up doing well.  You say abuse and I say helpful. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-02-16 01:10 ]

[cherish wisdom]

That's good that you did well in the program. Others are not as fortunate as you have been. It's true that emotional abuse can occur in therapy - depending on what is considered therapy. In my profession every diagnosis - including mental illnesses - have a specific plan of care that has been established by professionals with experience in treating that particular illness.  These are often refered to as "patient care standards."  Now the standard of care for a patient who is suffering from depression is very clear since depression is by far the most common mental illness.  

These youth programs do not follow the "standard" for treatment.  Not for depression. You don't treat a depressed patient with prolonged isolation, forced drugging, sensory deprivation, punishments that last for entire days.  This is not how one treats a depressed patient. Many of the youth in these programs suffer from some form of depression. You don't build their self esteem by depriving them of all social contact and punishing them by having them stare at a wall all day long. You don't build self esteem by forcing them to wear ragged, hidiously brite sweat suits all day long.  These are just a few of the things that were done to my own child who was diagnosed with severe depression at Provo Canyon School.  

I know that the WWASP programs use similar punishments and behavior modification used at PCS - this is where Bob Lichfield learned the ropes and gained the experience necessary to branch out on his own.  

Utah must regulate these facilities - and most should be closed due to the untherapeutic care youth are subjected to.....

Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?
--Arthur C. Clarke, author

[Perrigaud]

Depression is also one of the highest misdiagnosed out there. We do live in a prozak nation. I for one was told I was depressed (clinicly {butchered that word}). But once I began to deal with my core issues I found that I wasn't depressed. I found this out when I graduated the program and had myself evaluated by 3 different psychologists. A lot of times what eats away at a person is all the things they haven't dealt with. Issues are like cancer. The longer they go undealt with the more they grow and spread.
The reason for the uniform (ours wasn't tattered of even that horrible) falls along the same reasons private schools have a uniform. They do this to get rid of some of the appearance popularity factor. Private schools have found the uniforms to be effective in lessening the whole click aspects.
CCM never forced drugged me. In fact they encouraged my family to not drug me due to the fact that they didn't believe in drugging unless it was very necessary. Before the program I took everything from prozak to zoloft. Nowadays I don't use anything. CCM built our self esteem by helping us work on the issues we had. In doing so our self esteem built up. True self esteem comes from inner freedom. Inner freedom to me is the ability to feel truly happy. It's in the every day things I do. All the same, I don't expect perfection. I have bad days, weeks, and sometimes months. In the end I work them out and embrace the good days. The consequences I got at the program were my own doing. If I was gossiping about another girl I would get a demerit. They never punished me for no reason. I used to use my diagnosis (depression) as a reason to do a lot of things. I would manipulate situations and people very easily. I knew it was a touchy subject. I'm not saying there aren't people who are truly depressed. I know there are. However, I also know that it's a diagnosis that is easily given out.