What I see with teenagers at the dojo (and the dojo is a *huge* stabilizing force for our teen students), is that teenagers catch their parents doing something stupid or being wrong about something. They follow their parents' advice and have a worse outcome on *something* than if they had followed their own better judgement on that one thing.
Then they become *either* absolutely convinced that their own judgement is better than their parents' on *everything* or that they would rather screw up based on their own better judgement than ignore their better judgement and follow their parents' and end up "in the shit" when it turns out they were right and their parents were wrong.
When you think about it, it makes sense.
As kids grow into adults, it's inevitable that sometime when a parent makes a mistake in judgement, the adolescent kid will have made the *right* choice---but have listened to the parent out of habit.
What I do with my stubborn, frequently "oppositional" nine year old is what Ginger suggests---first off when she's in a contrary mood, I give her fewer things to be contrary to---I back off the advice a bit. The next thing I do is if she's about to do something potentially damaging but not catastrophic, I'll just say, "I don't think it's a good idea. If you want, I'll tell you why." And then I shut up. Let curiosity make her ask me. If she does ask, I *try* to keep it brief (something I'm lousy at, as you all know! LOL).
If the danger is imminent and severe, I'll tell her---such as, "Watch out for the truck!" or "Oh my god don't horse around at the top of the stairs, I'm scared to death you'll fall and break your neck and be dead or, worse, paralyzed for life!"
Other than that, I give her as little as possible to oppose. "A great deal of freedom within limits." I try to arrange the situation so she has to use her own judgement as much as possible to solve problems when she's like that. I do less for her and leave her to solve more daily living problems for herself. Like fixing herself what she wants to eat, washing her own clothes, etc.
Her: "Can you drive me to the mall?"
Me: "Maybe. I've got to get X, Y, and Z done before I can go. If you can help me with any of it, we could leave quicker."
Her: "Uh! Mooooom!"
Me: "You don't *have* to. It's just what I've got to get done before we can leave. If you have something else you want or need to do, go right ahead. I'll call you when I'm done."
Her: "Okay, I'll help." (rolls eyes, annoyed)
Me: "Okay. Thanks. Which one do you want to do?"
Her: "Y. No, Z."
Me: "Okay. Thanks a lot. I *really* appreciate the help."
OR---she wanders off and doesn't do any of it, but we really don't go to the mall until I'm done with what I need to do.
But I put as many of the ordinary daily judgements and problems of running her life back on her as possible when she gets like that. I don't load her down with artificial ones---I just give her more space *spaecifically* in using her better judgement to cope with daily life by subtly withdrawing some of the things I ordinarily might do for her.
If she *asks* me to do something for her, I tell her something I need to do as what I was going to do instead (which usually is what I really was going to do) and ask if she can help me out with that while I do her favor----and if she doesn't want to help, with no "nyah nyah" factor in my voice, I let her do whatever it was for herself while I go do my task that I needed to do anyway.
No chance for opposition---I make offers, not orders, when she wants some help from me---and if she chooses not to trade tasks, she gets to do whatever she wanted help with for herself with no hard feelings.
I'm sure the exact details will vary as she gets older, but *I* was a very stubborn kid---what they now call oppositional. I'm still a very stubborn adult.
I remember an episode of "The Waltons" where one of the kids was in a race riding a mule when the others were on horses, and Grandpa Walton said, "A mule's gonna want to do things the hard way" and mapped out a route for the kid that let the mule do it the hard way.
That metaphor kind of applies. You let the kid (or adult) do things the hard way and, like flowing water that finds the smallest opening through and wears down great mountains, but never really gives you anything to oppose, you just roll with the situation and *as far as possible* don't give the kid anything to oppose.
I use mental and emotional Aikido as a specialized branch of Mom Fu. :smile:
Then again, I'm absolutely implacable about winning the battles I *have* to win. Like, "You have to do a day's worth of school today. You can split it among two subjects. Which two do you want. You won't pick? Okay. I'll pick." (Then she usually defaults to, "Okay, okay" and picks two.) Or, I have to win the battle on her taking her meds---which she *rarely* makes a battle, but *never* wins if she makes it one.
I guess that's the big thing. With an oppositional kid, you pick your battles *very* carefully and absolutely insist on winning those few you pick.
The thing with my stubborn kid, and the thing with the teens down at the dojo, is that if you give them that "great freedom within limits" thing and you put more of solving their day to day life problems back on them, they get so caught up in figuring out how to deal with this or that life problem they're trying to solve (almost like a puzzle), that they kind of forget about you and kindof forget to be pissed at you.
You empathize a lot while sitting back and letting them figure it out.
A lot of times when a kid gets oppositional, how they're feeling is like a cook in the kitchen who has someone underfoot and perpetually in the way when she's trying to make dinner. And the parent is the underfoot, in the way, extra fingers in the pot nuisance.
Give 'em space on all the small daily things, and they get so caught up in the creation they're baking that they forget to be mad.
Instead of "I told you so" with problems, an empathetic, "Oooh. That sucks. What are you going to do about it?" turns their attention right back on their problem and *away* from the parent. And sometimes when they realize they don't know what the hell they're going to do, at that moment, they ask for advice---and get it. And if they don't want to actually take the advice, you just shrug and say, "Sorry, that's just what I'd do. What are your other choices?"
And when the kid is no longer feeling like they're trying to work out their problems with too many fingers in the pot while tripping over you every which way they turn, they calm down and kindof like you.
I'm not talking about abdicating the role of parent and trying to be their best buddy. I'm saying that sometimes a "water" strategy works better than a "stone" or "fire" one.
Unless the situation is a battle you just *have* to win, there's the gentlest, lightest touch of guidance, with plenty of empathy and support. And if there are signs that the empathy is becoming irritating, you tell them you'll be there if they decide they need you and let 'em alone.
Most of the time when I see other parents who are at loggerheads with an oppositional child, it's because the parents have too heavy a hand and are picking unnecessary and senseless battles instead of just the ones they have to win.
If you'll forgive me, chi3, if you're reading this---one of those is your daughter hanging out with the gay crowd. What's the hazard? It's not like they're going to screw her and give her AIDS. I can see the concern if they're all drugged up, and maybe you don't approve of their sexual behaviors---but unless your daughter has a girlfriend, *I* don't see an active, immediate hazard. (And it may be that there's one I don't know about, or that that's just a minor annoyance to you you mentioned for example and not a major battle.) I just pick that as something that I *wouldn't* pick as a battle.
On the goth thing---my "rules" would be goth clothes are okay as long as they don't break the school dress code. Temporary tattoos are okay. Jewelry that imitates weird piercings but isn't is okay. Weird music is okay. NO drugs. A liberal but firm curfew. You carry the prepaid cell phone everywhere, all the time. I *will* test you for drugs, regularly. Damn straight I'll search your room. Black lipstick? Black nail polish? Otay..... Then I'd use grounding her from some of it for *short* periods as the "lever" to enforce curfew, cell phone, and no drugs. Sure, she can borrow lipstick and stuff from her friends, and she can change clothes at a friend's house, or listen to music there---but if she can *usually* do it an only loses it for short times for rule breaches *immediately* after breaking the rules it's embarrassing--and no kid wants to look like a dork in front of her friends.
Maybe it wouldn't work, maybe it doesn't match your values---but that's what *my* strategy with *my* kid would be. My kid's a clothes horse. Taking away favored fashions for a few days at a time would be a *major* lever with her.
My kid fibs. The best advice I've found for dealing with that, that my husband and I are now implementing, is to never give her an opportunity to fib---check *everything*. Not asking, "Did you finish your homework?" but saying, "Okay, show me your homework." Never asking a question where there's a chance or temptation to lie. Modeling honesty and keeping your word---especially by doing what you say you'll do--no "just a minute" if it's going to be hours (*I* need to work on that).
I googled on "teaching honesty"---there are some good tips that would work even with a teenager.
Anyway, that's how I deal with a stubborn kid that sometimes succumbs to the temptation to fib.
Timoclea
Under the benign influence of our republican institutions, and the maintenance of peace with all nations whilst so many of them were engaged in bloody and wasteful wars, the fruits of a just policy were enjoyed in an unrivaled growth of our faculties and resources.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/foundingdocs/inaugural/madison1stinaug.html' target='_new'>James Madison
