Author Topic: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!  (Read 5555 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2005, 11:37:00 PM »
Jimmy, I am very happy that everything is going good for you.

The Seed allowed me to do more than I ever could have imagined in my life.  I was totally screwed up in drugs and was desparately unhappy.   I never had any confidence in myself and would never have done anything possitive were it not for the Seed and the tools that I was given.  There is not a day that goes by that I don't use what I have learned.

Antigen - I think that we all have the choice in life to make right or wrong decisions.  I have had my life together for over 30 years and never once went back to drugs.  I have had ups and downs but the tools have been what has made me make the right choices.  It seems to me that you are very resentful towards the Seed.  I was there for many years and saw lots of  people change their lives around including myself.  I feel offended by your being so negative towards others when they are trying to express themselves.   You should have a little more sensativity and think about how you might affect them by what you are saying.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2005, 10:05:00 AM »
Maybe if you actually tried to live in the real world and deal with people from all walks of life instead of your seed cucoon, you might not be so "offended" by the fact that other people actually have opinions that differ from yours.  I'm thinking that you have not really been exposed to much of the real world.  

Folks who have trouble staying straight - maybe their trouble is because they actually live life and get out there everyday and are challenged in ways that people who live the the clositered seed life could never ever be able to handle.  And whyis that?  Because those "tools" are not the "be all and end all" they were made out to be.  Maybe because it only works when you use them in a safe secure environment.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2005, 11:10:00 AM »
to the first anon above..if this is your first post welcome to our forum!.

30 years ago, eh?  Me too. However, I am a graduate and did not have such an easy go of it. Nowadays I can take a drink at leisure without spiraling down into an alcholic failure ridden one way street or needing to get drunk after drinking one beer or a glass of wine. I AM NOT POWERLESS!

Why? Why are you able to stay "straight" for so long while others, even staunch seed advocates, admittedly struggle with drugs and alchohol so many years later? What gives? How important is it to you to stay straight? Is it necessary...what I mean is, if you had a drink or god forbid smoked some pot, would your life end as you know it? Would you somehow change the direction of your life? Would you end up hopelessly screwed up?

Enlighten us here on the mentality necessary to proclaim you have been "fixed" for 30 years.

Oh, and by the way, were you ever addicted to anything? How old were you when you went in the seed?

Thanks in advance for your participation here.
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Offline Antigen

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Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2005, 12:41:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-05 20:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Jimmy, I am very happy that everything is going good for you.

Jesus Christ on a broken crutch! You obviously never got to know an authentic addict! Jimmy, please know that we're all pulling for ya', heart and soul. I don't recall if you said you were kicking an opiate addiction or not, but that's what I assume by the way you put it. If so, some of us understand that "going well" is probably not the very first phrase to spring to mind when you get up to face the new day. But it does get much better. You must be at least 45 by now and (you can check this), statistically, people who make it to your age almost always kick successfully and permanently right about now.

Quote
I was totally screwed up in drugs and was desparately unhappy.   I never had any confidence in myself ...

Don't you understand that all adolescents feel that way at some point? Think of all the kids who landed on front row for a "druggie attitude" (usually the younger brothers and sisters of initial Seed intakes) But the same schpeel worked on them pretty good, even on those who had NO drug experiece, let alone excessive use.

Never the less, for millions of years, most kids have found their bearing and grown up just fine, even w/o The Seed.

Quote
and would never have done anything possitive were it not for the Seed and the tools that I was given.  

That's extremely hard to believe. Nothing positive? Ever? Not a thing? There was nothing that could have happened, other than The Seed, that might have influenced you to change your ways? That is something you can't possibly know because it didn't happen. Just like I don't know what might have been if my family hadn't gotten involved in The Seed. I can tell you that The Seed did NOT bring us together or keep any of us off of drugs.

Quote
There is not a day that goes by that I don't use what I have learned.

Naturally. What else are you gonna use? You didn't take another path so you didn't learn other stuff.

Quote

Antigen - It seems to me that you are very resentful towards the Seed.  

Yeah, no shit! 10 years of living under that cloud and then landing up in The Seed, The Sequel followed by getting the boot from the family for leaving the Program will do that to a person!

Quote
I was there for many years and saw lots of  people change their lives around including myself.  I feel offended by your being so negative towards others when they are trying to express themselves.

I'm not being negative toward anybody. I'm being critical of the Program. There's a difference. You are not The Program. You are a person who was involved w/ The Program.

Quote
 You should have a little more sensativity and think about how you might affect them by what you are saying."


And so should you. Look, I know this is not something you're used to hearing, but most of the people who I know who bought in on these programs struggle w/ substance abuse and/or cripling depression far more than those who never went or those of us who never bought in.

Why? I think it's obvious. One of the core beliefs of the Program (be it AA/NA, Seed, Sraight or any other variety of stepcraft) is that you are weak and powerless and, any minute now, you're liable to "relapse" into your incurable, fatal disease.

I've had a rough year. No, I had a really easy half a year ending about a year ago, the rest has been unusually stressful for quite some time. If I believed the above dogma, I'd be stinking drunk right now. As an alcoholic, it would be my duty.

But I don't believe that. Never did. And so I can have a few beers one night, get up the next day, take my kid to her clinic at the hospital, learn all I need to about any changes in her IV or other meds that I'll have to administer later (on time, correctly and w/ good sterility practices), handle a car wreck on the way home (thankfully, just a couple of old beaters got a little uglier and no one was hurt) and NOT go on a bender.

I keep my life together because, unlike my two most unfortunate brothers, I never bought in. And when I say to Jimmy that it might be worth a try to re-examine the beliefs that have obviously not been working so well for him for the last 30 years, I am being very sensitive to how it may effect him. How sensitive are you being when you say, essentially, "well, if you would just work your program like I do..."

 :roll: Friends like these!

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Offline Anonymous

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Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2005, 01:04:00 PM »
very true Ginger, and the problem here as I see it is that program people almost always mistake program criticism as a personal attack. It is to be expected tho, because they identify so strongly with the Seed cult.

I agree with your points above...had you been a stepcraft devotee and gone thru your series of events lately, no doubt you would be knee deep in a "relapse" and also deep in depression for once again being a failure. Then you would be furiously "working your program".

Why can't people see what a dead end this lie.. this "gift" really is?

A very very very small segment of the population is so weak and disjointed that they need to "step" their way thru drugs and alcohol. Then there are those that find a society of steppers as an alternative to actually making friends and building a real life, and these people build a phony addiction around their stepcraft affiliation and teach themselves to believe their own deception. These are the saddest of all IMO.

 The rest of the world just quits when the negatives outway the positives...
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2005, 02:29:00 PM »
Antigen - I walked around everyday thinking about killing myself.  I was never happy as a kid.  To be perfectly honest my father didn't really like me.  I had alot of emotional problems.  My Dad was an alcoholic my mom in and out of nut houses. Sure I was not an average american kid.  We did go to private schools & my Grandparents were well off. I used drugs for 2 yrs 16 to 18years old.  I never shot drugs.  I was a senior in HS.  I got my stomach pumped once.  I was deathly afraid of shrinks.  I really thought I was bonkers, I was f---ed up- no stability at all.  I needed structure- not forever structure not mind control- I needed discipline and lots of it -I gained strength because of it- inner strength- I started having a sence of humor about myself. This was probably one of my major saving graces- for my own sanity. I really do believe if I did not have that structure that would not be so.  I've had a few suscides in my family as well (Aunts) Yes ...so everything I heard at the seed rung loud & clear.  Antigen I never knew your family but from what you describe they sound weird so do you to me just like I probably do to you.  I'm sure a shrink would really have a field day with you too.  I really don't mean this in a mean way its just what I see.  The Seed did alot of good thats what I saw and still see from those helped.  Believe me It wasn't perfect.  There are alot of big mahofs that I wont have anything to do with. By the way before my Dad passed away a couple of years ago He was sober in AA for 25 yrs.  I have never taken a drink in over 30yrs he didn't in 25 - that must say something.  I voted for Kerry.  I'm not a total Liberal but I'm not a total conservative either.  I'm divorced .  I'm not perfect nor ever claim to be.  I've lived in diffrent cities - maybe even some reasons I don't drink is because of my father.  But why you must tear down people that believe the way they do is the issue.  If I knew how this friggin phrase thing worked I could go line by line and come up with something line by line as well but its not necessary either.  I have enjoyed reconnecting with some people on this site but I think I'm done. I do appreciate that alot. I do hope everyone finds there own way through this journey.
I really do wish everyone the best.  ::bigsmilebounce::
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2005, 03:21:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-06 11:29:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

  But why you must tear down people that believe the way they do is the issue.  .

I really do wish everyone the best.  ::bigsmilebounce::

"


perception here Ft Laud.  I have grown to understand and even appreciate your sense of humor, but do you forget how you started here...as a attack troll anon telling people to fuck off?  Do you not see that Ginger talks mostly about program IDEAS and not people?

Ask yourself why you perceive anti program people as attacking you. As yourself why you can insult someone, come back and say you are going to "give them love" and then get pissed when they don't immediately respond in kind?  what gives here?

As far as your personal story..we all have one. My mom was a hard core alkie...walked out on the family when I was twelve. My pop never had been a father and continued along that path until throwing us in the seed.

I have been "sober" in the sense I don't hardly drink unless it is a party or I have friends over. I have had a case of beer in my house for a year...and a bottle of vodka unopened for six months.  I don't do drugs.  None of this I attribute to the steps or to art barker. I don't need to "step" my way to logical conclusions..that is that mind altering substances are not good for me.

However, post seed were the most destructive years of my life. I lost my family..I lost my self worth..I lost my reputation among my friends and became known as a "troubled kid" that went to drug rehab.

I am lucky in a sense I survived..but not drugs..the intense anger, loss of family and self hatred I gained in mind control camp. Our experiences have vastly different results. I am willing to listen to your side and think you should be more willing to listen to others.

Now, that being said...we wish you would stay around here and continue to participate. I have grown fond of your warped presense here!

 :grin:
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Offline marshall

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Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2005, 03:23:00 PM »
I spent a few months in prison before I went into the seed. I can look back now and see that prison helped me in some ways too. I've heard people that claim their being diagnosed with cancer has helped them in some ways. The list could go on...divorce, death of a parent (forced me to grow-up), etc. Whether we turn a particular experience into something positive and whether we learn or grow from that experience varies tremendously from person to person. What hurts one person may benefit another.

But would I want to go back to prison? Would we wish to have a parent die or get cancer...even though we might ultimately grow from such misfortunes? I have met some people who seemed to have been helped by various relgious cults or sects too. In their early years Jim Jones' People's Temple did a lot of good works for the poor...they helped people. Does this justify what happened later? Does it mean it wasn't a cult?

I can see many ways that the seed seems to have helped me too. I can also see other ways that it seems to have caused me harm. From the vantage point of many years later, I don't think any of us can be sure that our psychological problems are the result of the seed. Nor do I think we can be sure whether any positve attributes we think we have (including not using drugs) are the result of the seed.

How many of us will die of cancer or heart disease one day as a result of the seed's wholesale approval and justification of smoking? Couldn't all of these people claim that the seed helped kill them? I know I was not able to stop smoking until several months after I graduated and stopped attending the seed.

Why do most of us insist that the seed must be completely good or evil? Like most things or people, I see it as a little of both. I've been married to the same woman for nearly 25 years. I have 3 grown children and 3 grandchildren. I've smoked pot once since the seed. I drink wine or beer on occasion...and have for the last 26 years without ending up an alcoholic, insanedeadorinjail. I am not powerless over drugs or alcohol. That was a lie the seed drilled in. Whatever ways that the seed may have helped me, I would not wish such an experience on anyone...anymore than I would recommend prison.
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Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline GregFL

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« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2005, 03:38:00 PM »
:nworthy:
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Offline Antigen

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Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2005, 04:12:00 PM »
Ft. Lauderdale, I'm really not tearing anybody down. I know how that's done. And, if you want to go semantical w/ me, one valuable lesson I learned from the Program has been how damaging that can be and to avoid doing it.

What I am doing is pointing out that the Program (not you, not Jimmy, not anybody) is more than just minorly flawed, it's dangerous. It can and does do a lot of harm to a lot of people.

I'm sorry to hear that you had such a messed up childhood. And I'm glad everything has worked out in the end. I don't think that makes you weird, though. I think a decent shrink is like a decent DA; they could diagnose a ham sandwich. If you get to know people well enough, you find out that damned near everybody has at least a few nuts in the family tree. So did I.

 But I still think there probably were other options that would have been as good or better for you and your dad w/o drawing my family into it at all. And you must understand that the other families were a necessary part of the Program, right? I mean, it wouldn't have worked at all had it been one on one or w/o the notion that the world was turning all druggie and it was "us against them", right?

Our family's involvement w/ The Seed made everything worse, not better. And I'm hearing the same thing from, far and away, the vast majority of people who look up their particular Program name on the net and find these forums.

Believe it or not (and I'm guessing you won't) I still wouldn't make a public issue of this at all, except for one minor detail. The Program, as defined by the Drug Free America Foundation (formerly Straight, you know the history) is the most widespread, publicly mandated and funded method of "treatment" for my kids' generation. In 2000, their lobbyists actually tried to pass federal legislation limiting all federal juvenile drug treatment funding to only facilities that use the "Therapeutic Community" model. Thankfully, that failed, but not by much.

DARE, once mandated in 80% of public and private school districts in this country, is based on Program dogma and some of it's methods. A lot of activists have made a lot of noise and drawn a lot of sanctimonious ire onto themselves in order to get DARE out of the schools. The same thing needs to be done w/ these more intense, lock-down programs. That's why I tear the Program down. But not you or anybody else. Just the Program.

Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2005, 04:30:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-06 12:23:00, marshall wrote:

Why do most of us insist that the seed must be completely good or evil?


I just think that the idea that the TC method or stepcraft is wholely good and entirely harmless is already pervasive. That side of the argument has gone largely unchallenged for far too long now. And in light of some of the worst damage done in the name of coercive treatment, giving equal time to the benefits is about like saying of Charles Manson, "Yeah, but he sure was a good musician!" Ok, if you think so, you're entitled. I think the Program successes are sort of knock off versions of real success and Manson's music was pretty lame. That's my opinion.

How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2005, 05:42:00 PM »
to the first anon above..if this is your first post welcome to our forum!.

30 years ago, eh? Me too. However, I am a graduate and did not have such an easy go of it. Nowadays I can take a drink at leisure without spiraling down into an alcholic failure ridden one way street or needing to get drunk after drinking one beer or a glass of wine. I AM NOT POWERLESS!

Why? Why are you able to stay "straight" for so long while others, even staunch seed advocates, admittedly struggle with drugs and alchohol so many years later? What gives? How important is it to you to stay straight? Is it necessary...what I mean is, if you had a drink or god forbid smoked some pot, would your life end as you know it? Would you somehow change the direction of your life? Would you end up hopelessly screwed up?

Enlighten us here on the mentality necessary to proclaim you have been "fixed" for 30 years.

Oh, and by the way, were you ever addicted to anything? How old were you when you went in the seed?

Thanks in advance for your participation here.

___________________________________________________________


Greg ? Thanks for the welcome.  I can tell from reading your entries that your experience was very different from mine at the Seed. I can also understand how you felt so differently than I did.  

I came in the Seed at 15 years of age.  I used drugs just about every day before coming in.  I did not know how to deal with the real world and tried to mask all of the negative feelings I had about myself through the use of drugs.  I used drugs for several years and each year I would see myself doing more and more to destroy my life.  I was so unhappy that I could not even look at myself in the mirror or even be alone by myself.  Even as a kid I never felt secure with myself, I always felt like I was not worth anything.  The Seed gave me everything I was lacking in my life.  I certainly did not get any assurance from my parents.  I was always told how everything I did was wrong and never once was I told you did a good job.

For me I would not even want to drink or do drugs again since that is what destroyed me the first time.  All I have to do is think about how I felt prior to coming in and how I learned how to be at peace and happy with myself now.  I don?t want to take the chance of destroying that.

I am not saying that everything was perfect.  There were some people who were into status and would not even acknowledge me.  I would go out of my way to be kind but I think they felt I was not as good as they were.  For a long time I thought was there something wrong with me, but I have had a lot of time to think about it over the last few years and feel fortunate that I did not turn out like them.  I can see things much more clearly now.

I hope this answers your questions.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2005, 05:47:00 PM »
- Maybe if you actually tried to live in the real world and deal with people from all walks of life instead of your seed cucoon, you might not be so "offended" by the fact that other people actually have opinions that differ from yours. I'm thinking that you have not really been exposed to much of the real world.

Folks who have trouble staying straight - maybe their trouble is because they actually live life and get out there everyday and are challenged in ways that people who live the the clositered seed life could never ever be able to handle. And whyis that? Because those "tools" are not the "be all and end all" they were made out to be. Maybe because it only works when you use them in a safe secure environment.
______________________________________________________
To anon referenced above:

You have absolutely no idea the kind of a life I have lead.  

I have gone through a tremendous amount in my life.  I had a life threatening disease where I was extremely sick for months.  When I first found out I did not know if I was going to live or not.  That was a true test of reality.  The tools helped me tremendously during this stage of my life.  To me going through those things in my life gave me a real insight and I learned and grew so much by going through the experience.  It showed me that I had character and could handle much more than I could have imaged.  It may sound odd but I am glad I went through that experience.  

My point is that I have not had a sheltered life or lived in a cocoon and life has not always been smooth sailing.

I also have not lived a perfect life by any means but I feel that we can learn from all of our experiences.  Either good or bad.

I am not trying to be sarcastic but just stated the way that I feel.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2005, 06:03:00 PM »
how long were you involved at the seed. How many years? How long have you been away?  It appears that you still talk the talk so I am just curious.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2005, 07:47:00 PM »
damn, 15 years old, did drugs and felt bad for a couple years, then wham, 30 years of feeling like those two years defined you and then the magical steps saved you.

Sorry, but that is a crock of dung, spoon fed by a cult that just accepted everything a ex alcohlic bad comic spoon fed them. Most people have periods of their life where they feel bad, especialy teenagers. I have had times as an adult where looking in the mirror disqusted me for one reason or another. I didn't need to be locked up in a cult  to cure that.

 Teenage angst wasn't invented by our generation or cured by the seed. In fact, for many it made it much worse.
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