How about some damn ANSWERS.

[Anonymous]

I picked up a allot of cutters and thier parents had no idea they were doing it until i told them. We are trained to notice things like that and the last time my female partner noticed her cuts when they went to the bathroom. you would not see someone cut them selves outside of a program because they do it in private and suicides the same. There is the possiblity that boy was cutting before he went to milatary school and the parent and the school never found out. Think about the uniform long sleves very thick.Also you should all watch the movie Thirteen. If you have not seen it it will go into this particualr problem for you to see and others that young girls go through. The movie is based on a true story. It is a hard movie to watch, but well worth it. The one that cares

[BuzzKill]

Cutting was once very rare and was a common symptom of BPD; which was also very rare.
BPD, is for reasons not understood,(I have my own theory) now at epidemic levels. So is cutting. Lot of kids are cutting, and a lot of them are BPD. BPD was once largely a female disorder. For reasons not understood,(I have my own theory)the percentage of males affected is evening out. What was once 90% female, is now more like 50/50. So, you have a lot more boys also cutting now.
Cutters do "get off on it". It is an addicting type of behavior and is very difficult to stop. I feel it might be related to Tricotilomania - Hair pulling. I feel is is a type of OCD; like the hair pulling. OCD is a common co-disorder with BPD.
Lots of these kids are prime candidates for Programs, b/c they are often out of controll in many ways - and often are a danger to themselves and others. The rages some have are extreme; and the behavior when having an episode can be very disturbing. Others are very with drawn and turned inward and likely to be placed out of concerns over depression and failing grades ect.
The horrible thing about this is (as if suffering with the disorder isn't horrible enough) is Stress makes it worse! School can be to stressful.
Every symptom and destructive impulse is heightened and made worse by stress.
These "Programs" are all about inflicting intolerable stress. It is an absolute nightmare.
Whats worse, is there are effective - truly very helpful treatments! DPT therapy is working wonders. Some medications help a lot. Eye movement therapy is also showing terrific results (amazing to me, but true)So, there are real, true helpful things that can be done.
Yet parents in their ignorance and with their lack of understanding are turning to these programs in droves!
I lay much blame on the schools and the Psyche professionals. They are the ones who Ought to know what is going on with a kid suffering through this; and they are the ones who ought to be able to direct the family to real help.
Instead, the advice most families get is only going to exasperate the problems and make recovery much more difficult.
Its an outrage.

[Deborah]

OWC,
I realize you are accustomed to dealing with parents who are so out of touch with their children that they have to be 'trained' in how to notice things so obvious at cut marks. And or they are so removed from their kids life that they don't notice. But, that is not me. Rest assured he was not cutting prior to the program. I don't believe the academy would have cared. And they certainly had opportunity to notice. The boys were tshirt and shorts or sweats most of the time. The 'long sleeved shirts' are not daily attire.

Perri,
As to your question of how I feel about military academies... our lawsuit settled last year. Does that give you an indication of my opinion?
They use the same MO, right down to telling parents to ignore their kids complaints (manipulation) and report them immediately to staff so they can 'handle it'. Many parents were snowballed until a kids throat was cut in the middle of the night. That incident allowed the light to shine in on all the abuse occuring there.
And in case your wondering, I did not support my son's placement. It was done without my knowledge or consent and it took six months to get him home.

[Perrigaud]

Thanks for your input Deb.

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-04 04:31:00, Anonymous wrote:

Also you should all watch the movie Thirteen. If you have not seen it it will go into this particualr problem for you to see and others that young girls go through. The movie is based on a true story. It is a hard movie to watch, but well worth it. The one that cares

Ok, more common ground.

I too think we should all try and catch this movie. Shouldn't be too hard. They've been spamming it all over cable for awhile now. I watched it w/ my kids. And it struck me as having been based on those outrageous confessions that Program kids had to make up in order to condemn their past selves before the almighty Group. Never seen anyone put up w/ that level of bullshit for very long.

I've seen some fucked up shit, mind you. I remember a party house where the cokehead mother of the wannabe lead singer was fucking all the young boys he and his sisters could lead into her den. But we really only hung out there cause it was like a train wreck; you just couldn't turn away. It was perversely entertaining.

But then we all grew up and couldn't find the time for it. The craziest motherfucker of them all has been steadily, mundanely employed at Universal Studios for the past dacade and a half. Another one works at Costco and another as a tech for a video distribution co. Another is still trying to get rich quick off of real estate and insurance scams. The band was good, but it takes more than that.

Let's see... another one is still a printer, hapily married (provided Ernie hasn't got his current phone number and played that prank tape) and another is still a mechanic as far as I know. Dunno what ever happened to Ed the Head or his bitchy sister. The old hag probably finally fulfiled her death wish.

I and my (then) new boyfriend married, had a couple of kids and are now living comfortably enough for me to spend just about all the time I can stand looking after social issues like a proper housewife.  Sure wish we'd gone w/ Google or bought Netscape when it opened @ .71/share, but we can't complain.

That's how these stories actually end. The stuff that happens in that movie, you'll only hear as the confessions resulting from what the Senate has just defined as torture:

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 79&forum=7

All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-04 11:38:00, Deborah wrote:

"


They use the same MO, right down to telling parents to ignore their kids complaints (manipulation) and report them immediately to staff so they can 'handle it'.

That was one thing that I felt physically, like a punch to the gut. At one point, my own father lied to a cop in order to get me arrested and (hopefully) sent back to the Program.

Around a year later he asked me (in anger) why, if all this shit about the program were true, I'd never just told him. I just looked him in the face and reminded him that, if I had, he would have turned me in. We never spoke of it again. Never needed to.

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark.  The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.  
--Plato

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-05 21:24:00, Crazy Mac wrote:


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato

And God bless you for being a bigger man than that.

It is criminal to steal a purse. It is daring to steal a fortune. It is a mark of greatness to steal a crown. The blame diminishes as the guilt increases

--Schiller (1759-1805)

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Anonymous]

I don't know about your program, Antigen, but I do know that kids are NOT forced into false confessions at WWASPS.  Yes, some do make things up, but eventually they get real.  I know for me it was very cleansing to bring to the surface things I had kept hidden from anyone that ever tried to be close to me.  Once I realized that other people did care I could finally deal with it, heal it and move on. Sometimes they would just listen, other times, share similar experiences.  Yes, it was painful, but it was even more painful and more long term to keep it inside.

I watched "Thirteen" and in between the "movie hype" it had a very clear message that no matter how bad things are, not matter what destructive decisions this girl made, she was loved and her mom cared enough to stop her from going down completely.  

How many moms would have had the strength to do what she did for her daughter?  I don't think she went to a program after that, either.

[Nihilanthic]

Disclosing your shit and hearing others and the constant 'pain' and 'crying' seems to be a very common theme in all of these programs.

Why the need for such intense emotions?

Read up on Psychological regression. Its obvious you ignore what everyone whose been to a program and DIDN'T like it had to say.

I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

[Perrigaud]

The reason for such high emotion is for support from others who have been there. Plus being in the program one gets pretty emotional very easily. In the real world we aren't as willing to expose our feelings and emotions. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-06 02:53 ]

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-06 02:52:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"The reason for such high emotion is for support from others who have been there. Plus being in the program one gets pretty emotional very easily. In the real world we aren't as willing to expose our feelings and emotions. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-06 02:53 ]"

I agree with what you said about the real world Perrigaud and there is the paradox. These programs don't teach real world skills. In the real world we aren't meant to share it all. If I have a bad day nobody at works cares to hear about it. I can just imagine me telling my Boss "I feel ____ about ____ b/c ____." Or better yet "Can we share for a moment." These programs don't teach kids to handle things on their own. They teach them the only way to inner peace is confession. Somethings aren't meant to be shared. I have been out of my program for over a decade (and never believed a word they were telling me) and I still struggle with the line between open communication and telling it all. The truth is the average person doesn't want to know your every emotion. In fact I find people become very uncomfortable with to much disclosure. But somehow that has been the hardest part of my program to leave behind (that nagging must tell it all feeling).

I don't know if I have made any sense or not, but that is my opinion.
The Graduate

[Perrigaud]

I completely understand how you feel. I guess that's why I keep a journal. I don't care if someone wants to read it. However, I will not voluntarily bust out my all of my emotions. When I first graduated I did do that and found that people were looking at me in somewhat of a shock. Nowadays I don't do that as much.

[Anonymous]

Once we know that "letting it all out" is a good thing, there are ways to continue this without making other people feel uncomfortable with our openness - like Perrigaud said, journaling is a big one.  Another is family.  For some, a therapist might be an option.  Keeping it inside is such a waste of precious energy.

One of the big things we learn in both the program and the seminars is that family won't get upset or uncomfortable when we are having some struggles.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-06 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:


One of the big things we learn in both the program and the seminars is that family won't get upset or uncomfortable when we are having some struggles.   "

But in the programs and the seminars people are devulging their deepest, darkest secrets to STRANGERS.  Teenagers at that.  There is something very, very wrong about that and it does spill over into real life after getting out.

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-06 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:


One of the big things we learn in both the program and the seminars is that family won't get upset or uncomfortable when we are having some struggles.   "

More things you can learn from a TOUGHLOVE hategroup ralley.

Don't get upset, just...

Use threats and coercion to snap that troubling teen right back into place. Just ask Laura Murphy how well that worked out. Here's there story.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... esp1.shtml I shit you not, at the time RMN interviewed her, she STILL thought the Program had saved her son! Even after his funeral she believed it!

Withhold moral and material support and affection, change the locks if necessary, tell friends and relatives false and outrageous things about the kid
Or ask my mom, if you happen to speak w/ her. And say hi to her for me. She really, really took this one to heart! In over 20 years, she's never initiated contact w/ me. Eventually I just quit calling her after the last time she tried to convince me I was a drug addict in need of treatment.

And she's not upset about any of it. That much is true.

I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young, and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is none the less true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic