How about some damn ANSWERS.

[Anonymous]

YOUR Psychologist? You see a psychologist?  Tell us in detail about your experiences.  Starting with, you make an appointment, you go to the office, you go into a room, what is the temperature like, what kinds of things do you talk about.  Do you talk a lot about other people or situations, or do you talk about yourself?  I don't understand, I really want to understand why someone would go see a psychologist.

[Anonymous]

The seminars have psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, social workers, nurses, doctors, medical/clinical professionals in them all the time and I never met a single one that objected.  These are people I would want to associate with, not the "psychologist" that wrote her account many years ago. Is she a psychologist that thinks SHE has all the answers and manipulates her clients into thinking the same way she does?  Sorry, I'm being judgmental.

[miseducated]

On 2004-12-29 18:32:00, Anonymous wrote:


If what the kids and parents learn about themselves in the seminars is brainwashing, I say "get out the soap and sponge!"  It's not mind control or anything negative!  

My first "host mom" at a teen help program said the  SAME THING to me. I tried to keep my head clear, but doubts crept in: they aren't starving me, they aren't keeping me awake all night (I had read a *little* bit about brainwashing prior to my incarceration at the age of seventeen.) So maybe it is not brainwashing, I thought. Yet the CIA was perfectly clear on brainwashing back in the 1950s, and what I was experiencing was most exactly, certainly and destructively brainwashing. However, did I have ANY access WHATSOEVER to any materials that might have helped me to understand my position as NEW CULT RECRUIT? Of course not. TOTAL CONTROL OF ENVIRONMENT.

Who is in control? You treat teenagers like animals, that have no rights. Poke, prod and brand them. If you were ever LOCKED UP with no hope of getting out but playing the game, you might also learn to play the game, and smile, and you might even forget for a long time that you were playing a game.

It took me years of anxiety, depression, nightmares, no sense of self WHATSOEVER, to finally realize that I had in fact been ABUSED and BRAINWASHED.

How can a person make a choice from a position of integrity if you put them in a prison and tell them the only way out is to play the game.

[Anonymous]

Venting??

[Nihilanthic]

Ok, sure!

Well, I remember my appointment, get my wallett and keys and shit, and get in my car. I drive there and usualy bitch to myself about the traffic enroute. I usually redline at least two of my gears on the way, I'm quite the motorsports enthusiast. Only first and second though!

I try to get there a few mins early, and I almost always am, so I amuse myself with candy and magazines. He comes in, shakes my hand and greets himself.

So, we go in there, we sit down, and he asks me how my day was. I tell him and ask him about his. Helps to break the ice and just get a conversation going. If I have anything in particular to speak of, its my choice to do so and I do so without prompting. If I have nothing to talk about, or he had something in mind, I'll allow him to tell me what he had in mind and discuss accordingly.

The temperature is usually slightly cool, however in winter it might be a bit warm. I'm a warm natured person so I wear short sleeves under my coat. I feel very welcome in there and never intimidated. He never tries to manipulate anything, or steer the conversation, or make me feel bad. If he asks something that might stress me out I'm welcome to not speak about it.

Umm... I talk about myself, lol. Its about me and working out any issues I want to talk about. I'll talk about others and how they interact with me, but what I went there for was my issues with aspergers syndrome. In a nutshell, its mild autism, which gave me some social problems.

I wasn't manpiluated or told I had to deal with shit and tell tons of people about it. I talked about what I wanted to talk about and did what I felt comfortable with doing. There was no manipulation or stupid games to play with my emotions. I got support and an ego boost, not an ego reduction. There was nothing long term or any secrets held from me beforehand.

And certainly no mysterious life-changes from it.

We ought to be grateful that our government monopoly schools are such a failure. If today's 18 year olds could do arithmetic, they'd be out buying enough rope to hang everybody over 40.
--Alan Handleman on Social Security

[Anonymous]

So he doesn't ask you provacative questions, or if he does and it stresses you out, you change the conversation to something less intrusive? He doesn't tell you that you need to deal with shit, so why would you go?  If there's been no changes in your life, what's the purpose?  You're being very vague.  I've heard so much of what you don't want.  What do you want? Ooops,sorry this isn't a self help thread.

Do you want to know about the seminars in detail to see if it's something that would get you to a place of finally being happy? or Why do you want to know about the seminars?

[Nihilanthic]

I go there because I want to! If I want to deal with something I do it while I'm comfortable and NOT under duress or stress from it. I can pick whatever I want to talk about - I'm not going there to follow some plan he had.

I'm not there to jump through hoops and end up coming out how he wats me to come out or how they want me to feel or think or live my life. These seminars work through emotional duress, manipulation, confrontational FORCEFUL "therapy" and changing you how THEY want you to.

If I'm with my therapist I'm in control. This must be a very foreign concept to you. I'm being built up, not torn down and rewired. Its not about being forced to endure a damn trip of strong emotions and come out being told waht to do. Its me going where I want to go and getting SUGGESTIONS. I can take whatever I want from it.

Time is running out. The Indians' botanical knowledge is disappearing even faster than the plants themselves.

--Richard Schultes, Harvard University educator, authority on medicinal plants

[Perrigaud]

The tactics in the seminars are ones that have been used in different situations. By this I mean that a lot of corporate "team building" and "excellence training" have the processes we used in the seminars. Muisic plays, lights are dimmed, writing is at hand, etc. All play a key role in stimulating the different regions of our minds as well as effect.
To those of you who don't have the patience to wait for my answers relax. I will answer when I'm not busy. I work 3 jobs, sleep 7 hours a day, and work for 13 hours. I will. There's no need to cuss. It just makes you look juvinile.
As for the mixed signals I aggree that they always claim ignorance. Of course they'd say that. In some cases the ignorance is true. The CEO's are not always around to see every move. It's unfortunate but I'm sure that the kids being taken advantage of were not all lying. Some of them were.

[Anonymous]

Ginger-- here's what I know about the history of WWASP.

Robert Lichfield started his way in the teen abuse business as a staff member of Provo Canyon School, which was just as abusive back then as it is now. At some point, Lichfield decided to start his own concentration camp.

He met David Gilcrease, who was a Lifespring trainer at the time. Gilcrease developed the seminars, which are, in fact, Lifespring seminars (Lifespring came from Est, by the way), and together they created The Program, and in 1990, they opened their first concentration camp: Cross Creek Manor in La Verkin, Utah.

The old ISAC site hinted at a connection between WWASP and Straight. It said that Lichfield was and still is one of the biggest donators to the Republicans in Utah, and that he attended many Republican conferences-- just like a certain Straight executive (I can't remember his name). I can't remember the exact wording used, but that page suggested that that Straight exec taught Lichfield some of the elements of a successful, highly abusive treatment cult (such as the level system, use of parents for fundraising and recruiting, etc.), which Lichfield later incorporated into WWASP.

[Nihilanthic]

On 2004-12-30 02:16:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"The tactics in the seminars are ones that have been used in different situations. By this I mean that a lot of corporate "team building" and "excellence training" have the processes we used in the seminars. Muisic plays, lights are dimmed, writing is at hand, etc. All play a key role in stimulating the different regions of our minds as well as effect.

To those of you who don't have the patience to wait for my answers relax. I will answer when I'm not busy. I work 3 jobs, sleep 7 hours a day, and work for 13 hours. I will. There's no need to cuss. It just makes you look juvinile.

As for the mixed signals I aggree that they always claim ignorance. Of course they'd say that. In some cases the ignorance is true. The CEO's are not always around to see every move. It's unfortunate but I'm sure that the kids being taken advantage of were not all lying. Some of them were. "

"team building" and "excellence training" are more meaningless catchphrases. Stop using them.

Dim lights and music to 'stimulate the regions of the mind' and have effects on them... this is just totally normal? Having people go in there without being given INFORMED CONSENT That their minds are going to be manipulated? Whats with playing with your emotions some damn much?

Thats NOT brainwashing? WTF is it then, drycleaning? Give me a BREAK Lady!

I've been helped without being manipulated or put through any experience like that, and I was not confronted or made uncomfortable. I was kept in control the whole time.

And yeah, I will wait, it seems I have to. I already know what the seminars are and what they do, but I was wondering if a supporter can give straight answers about it. I'm still not getting hardly anything.

Those tactics you seem to think are okay are by definition manipulative and 'brainwashing'. Its really, really sad. *Sigh* the first sign that it is brainwashing is maintaining any details of it before you go... the second is being told to go to them so damn much.

Oh, and P.S. - I'll curse as much as I want. I actualy have feelings and I'm not having someone trying to keep a lid on them, so I'm going to share them as I damn well see fit. I'm not under anyones control, and its hardly juvenile to be worked up over abuse, manipulation, and brainwashing. Its human.

The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this.
--Albert Einstein, My First Impression of the U.S.A., 1921

[Perrigaud]

Nil, none of my comments were towards you. Relax a little. It's common knowledge that music helps fill an aire. Now, are restaurants brainwashing you when you walk in and hear Sade? No, it's about setting the mood. It's a stimulus. You're right insofar that people don't know what is going to happen.
What straight answer do you want? Give me a specific question and I'll give you a specific answer. I'm always willing to do that. We live in about 5% consciousness. The rest is all sub. So do you really think you're always in control? And this, by the way, is basic psychology not program shit.
Humane yes but not necessarily healthy. I understand that you have a passionate stand on your opinions. More power to you. However, don't let it consume you. "teambuilding" may be a catch phrase, however it is also a common term. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2004-12-30 03:55 ][ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2004-12-30 03:57 ]

[Anonymous]

'What did they do to the kid? Doing something TO a person is not a good question'

why not? I always found empirical evidence  quite compelling.

'What do they provide for the kid is a better one. In your rudeness, is that what you are really asking?'

Listing what they provide is useless without context, in the intrest of context you may want to answer the question discussed above.

[Anonymous]

Don't let these people get to you periguad, They need to deal with allot of hate and resentment and I guess they are going after every boarding school out there, even if they don;t know what is going on. Why don;t you guys go after the prep boarding schools, that don;t do anything to help a kid, but do give them the freedom to do drugs and act out, should one of these troubled kids get sent to a normal school? NO is the answer. Kids need to get help like perigaud did, the bottom line is all the complaing you hear is from the most messed up and stubborn kids, who refuse to do anything when they get to these schools and get phsical at times and need to be restrained. There is no physical contact unless a kid loses control. A parent knows it is going to 3-6 months before they will be able to talk to thier child and can write letters until then.
This is again the hardest decision these parents are making in thier lives, and i see tears from not only the kids, but both mothers and fathers.I have seen grown men weep like babies.
But they know what they are doing is right and that they have tried everything they could and do not want thier kids dead or in jail.
Do you people think AA, or NA, or CA are brainwashing millions of people to stop drugs?
Thank you again Perigaud for showing me what i do is saving kids and that is all that matters to me. The one that cares

[Anonymous]

Perrigaud,

You've asked for specific questions, so here are mine.

You mentioned earlier that the seminars are composed of smaller segments called "processes". How many "processes" does each seminar day include? Do these processes have titles and names, like the seminars? If so, what are they? What are children asked to do during the first "process"? What happens if they do not comply?

[Perrigaud]

So true. I'm so grateful despite what other's say. I will never forget who I was and who I am nowadays.