Author Topic: Info on WWASPS Paying People Off  (Read 16425 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2004, 09:12:00 AM »
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Snap out of what?

WWAS{/LifeSpring mind control.

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You people have no idea what kind of person I was. Save your pity for someone who really wants it. No I wasn't a great kid. I was dead inside. I didn't care about anyone or anything. I was that girl in school that went around taking out her anger physically on whomever I felt like it. I was not raised to be this way. I was full of hate. I was dangerous and I've got the permanent record to prove it. The program itself didn't change me. It was more of a decision I made. I was tired of being abusive. Deep down I knew the whole time the harm I inflicted on others as well as myself. "


I knew you'd start going on and on about how horrible you've been before you were sent to the Holy Program that saved your life. I'm not even sure I can believe you on that. So many children are taught to exaggerate whatever problems they had before the Program so they could fit into the Program ideology "I deserved to be sent here" component. So, no, I don't believe you deserved it. I don't believe any child "deserves" to be abused.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2004, 09:20:00 AM »
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I'll gladly answer any question you have to offer.

You say you'll answer questions, but you never do. Why don't you start with the questions Nihilanthic asked.

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I'll give you both the positive and negative.

I don't believe you.

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I'm sure you'll have a fit with all that I'll tell you. But I'd rather you have all the facts.

No, you won't. You will tell us what WWASP made you believe about youself and the Program and the way you were treated. WWASP's insane ideology is not facts.

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Go ahead. Ask away. You of all people should know that in this life one is not remembered for all the "good" things they do rather they are remembered for every "bad" thing they do. It's easy to focus on the negative.


No one here is trying to focus on the negative. If there was anything positive about WWASP, I'm sure someone would have brought it up by now (and I mean real, hard facts, not the "without the Holy Program I'd be deadorinjail" program lines). You have no idea how great I would feel knowing that these children are safe and that they are being taken care of properly. I would very much like to believe all these abuse stories are lies. But I know better.

WWASP is a dangerous, abusive cult. That is the truth. WWASP uses physical abuse, psychological abuse, humiliation, solitary confinement, and psychological manipulation in orde to break children down, make them feel they are completely alone, that their parents gave up on them, that they are at the mercy of the program. Then, when the child is completely broken, they will acccept anything and believe anything, just to make the pain stop. They will believe they deserved to be abuse, they will believe the program saved their lives, they will believe anything, just to make it stop.

That is the truth about WWASP. Nothing more and nothing less.
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Offline Carey

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« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2004, 10:44:00 AM »
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No one here is trying to focus on the negative. If there was anything positive about WWASP, I'm sure someone would have brought it up by now (and I mean real, hard facts, not the "without the Holy Program I'd be deadorinjail" program lines).


Not so.  For the not so frequent visitor to this site, I had twins at Dundee.  In the original article written on Dundee one of my sons was quoted saying that the program was not all bad and that he did learn some things that had helped him. My other son has never said anything good about the program other than that he met some "good" friends while there.  

Well for the one who felt like he did learn some "good things" while in the program, he is doing well.  He has gotten his GED, he comes home at acceptable times, he is working and has bought his own car (financing and all), he calls me and checks in on a regular basis, he truely is doing very good.  The other, the one who said the only good thing about the program was that he met some "good friends" in the program, he is not doing quite so well.  He has not gotten his GED, he started the class, paid to take the test, but decided the night before the test to hang out with "good firends" and did not come home that night and still has not done anything to go about straigtening out the situation.

Does that mean I think he needs to go back?  NO.  I don't agree with limiting parental contact.  I don't think at this point there is a way to make 100% sure, proof positive, "bad" things won't or can't happen in a program.  ANY PROGRAM!!!  Just as much as I am also not sure 100% sure, proof positve, that my son who is not doing so well is going to "die or end up in jail" because he is not in a program.

For those looking for advice....you are ultimately responsible for what happens to your child while in a program.  It is up to you, no one else, to make sure your child is safe. Take responsibilty for you actions and quit blaming others when things go wrong.  Isn't that ultimately what you are trying to teach your child?
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2004, 01:02:00 PM »
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On 2004-12-25 07:44:00, Carey wrote:

 I don't think at this point there is a way to make 100% sure, proof positive, "bad" things won't or can't happen in a program. ANY PROGRAM!!!


No, but there sure is one good way to reduce the likelyhood. We discuss freely just what these programs are and how they work so that the new prospects for the TOUGHLOVE hategroups will have the chance (if they take it) to get the other side of the story.

So how does it work?

Perrigaud, by what means have you been changed? What happened? What worked? How did it work? Can you explain how and why the seminars were effective? Would they have been less effective if you had had an idea what they were like beforehand? If so, why? I find I get about exactly as much out of lectures, books or other educational material as my level of prior interest and background knowledge. What makes these seminars different?

There is no devil and no hell. Thy soul will be dead even sooner than thy body: fear therefore nothing any more.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher

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Offline Carey

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« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2004, 02:46:00 PM »
Ginger you asked, "How does it work?"  Here is a better question, "Who says it does work?

I am not giving credit nor discredit to the program for the choices either one of my twins are now making.  I simply am saying that one of my sons feels that it did make a difference in his life, for the better.  I am not saying that  he loved it, nor even liked it, I am saying he said he did learn from it.  Example, to have a greater respect for what he has and a greater respect for who he is.  How did he get to that point, or better stated how "MAY" the program have helped him to get to that point, by taking away what he did have and by letting him see how others like him were/are behaving.  He could see what he did not want to be (kids who were by far much more messed up than he).  It was kinda like an in your face experience.

Would I say the experience for him was a good thing? No.  Not anymore than I would say it was a good thing for his brother.
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Offline Carey

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« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2004, 03:08:00 PM »
Why doesn't Amber Lee tell us "how it works."  She was the one in charge while it "was working" on my boys.  Actually, she was so positive about how well the program worked that she helped to keep my boys there against my objections.  I had conversations with her while she was the active director at Dundee.  For two months as director of Dundee, and while I was objecting to their placement, she stood firm that Dundee was in their best interst.  Was she abusing my boys?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2004, 11:31:00 PM »
SEXUALLY abusing^^^
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2004, 11:33:00 PM »
I heard amber likes to play with undeveloped dongs.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2004, 11:56:00 PM »
***I simply am saying that one of my sons feels that it did make a difference in his life, for the better. I am not saying that he loved it, nor even liked it, I am saying he said he did learn from it.

Kinda like a 'near death' experience can make one appreciate life more? That's some testimony. Not....
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Offline Carey

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« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2004, 09:07:00 AM »
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***I simply am saying that one of my sons feels that it did make a difference in his life, for the better. I am not saying that he loved it, nor even liked it, I am saying he said he did learn from it.

Kinda like a 'near death' experience can make one appreciate life more? That's some testimony. Not....

Neither one of my boys had a near death experience. As a matter of fact neither one of them had anything at all like "a near death experience".

Keep things in perspective, then you might stand a chance of understanding what I am saying about what my boys experienced.

To the anon who said...
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SEXUALLY abusing^^^


and I might add, and/or any other kind of abuse.  After all she knew my concerns, she knew my fears and she knew my objections.  Has she really ever helped anyone, other than herself.  Why did she abuse and/or allow others to abuse and yet wait to come out of the closet until things were heating up on Dundee?  [ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2004-12-26 06:12 ]
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2004, 12:31:00 PM »
Carey, I don't think that's exactly what we're asking about.

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Anonymous
Kinda like a 'near death' experience can make one appreciate life more? That's some testimony. Not....


Not an actual near death experience, but similar in that it caused him to reevaluate some things. And I think that's pretty much what you're saying.

Trauma is not reliable medicine, though. It doesn't always make us stronger. Sometimes it breaks us.

But when I ask "how does it work", what I'm interested in knowing is the perspective of people who do not view the Program as abusive and who say that it saved their lives. I want to know what they think about how that happened.

I am not a vegetarian because I love animals;  I am a vegetarian because I hate plants.  
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2004, 12:14:00 PM »
Shut it. Check out N's sight and you will see. And yes I was that bad and no I wasn't brainwashed. Records are proof you d.s.! When your 16 year old daughter isn't accepted in any school in the county as well as the two surrounding counties that's a problem. Also, if that daughter has a record as well as the cops being called for domestic abuse (the daughter's the culprit) there's a problem. No I'm dramatizing it. Get real.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2004, 01:34:00 PM »
No, you get real.

I understand that you had some serious problems as a teen and have grown up quite a bit.

Now, even though you don't know me from Adam, I'd like to challenge you to grow up just a little bit more.

First, accept that almost none of us are claiming that there *aren't* situations---such as mental illness where the person is unstable and dangerous to self or others where hospitalization is necessary, or even just juvenile delinquency where the behavior is so bad that incarceration is appropriate.

There are maybe an odd handful that would want to shut down all residential treatment, but that's not me, and that's not *most* of the Program-skeptics on Fornits.

Second, accept that if you were actively violent and dangerous (as you've implied with the domestic violence calls), that most people here would agree with you that residential treatment or some period of incarceration (whichever the situation justified) was probably appropriate *for you*.

The third part is where I'm asking you to stretch, and pardon me if I sound patronizing, it's just hard to guage what the *right* tone should be when I don't know you----I'd like to ask you to consider the possibility that *some* kids get sent to facilities in cases where the kid is *not* dangerously mentally ill and *not* violent and *not* in danger of anything much but being a serious pain in the butt for the step-parent he or she doesn't like.

In a lot of cases, and these are the ones that a lot of us critics would *most* like to prevent, you have a stepparent who is willing to pay in the neighborhood of $5k a month just to get to snuggle up to the parent *without* the kid who hates him being an emotionally disruptive pain in their marriage.

And the whole problem with that is that the bio parent has a voluntarily undertaken obligation to the kid and the kid was there first.  Personally, I think if the custodial parent marries someone the kid loathes, the parent is the creep, not the kid.  Parenthood comes with obligations.  I say this as a parent and a veteran of divorce (thankfully a divorce without kids--had our daughter in my second marriage.)

A very bad personal choice is not grounds to make your life easier by institutionalizing your child.  

But it is happening.  And those of us who are trying to stop it are addressing a *real* social problem---not trying to keep persons like yourself who needed residential care from getting it.

Fourth--the other thorny social problem involved in this industry is that while some children, such as yourself, have apparently been well-served, there are reasonable indications that other children are *not* receiving quality care for their particular problems.

Please understand that the care that was appropriate for your particular problems would *not* be appropriate for a teen with different problems.  Delinquency is different from substance abuse is different from mental illness is different from major cognitive disabilities.  The various mental illnesses are different from each other.  And there are some kids who have more than one challenging condition present, and some who don't.

For the children who *need* residential care, the goal is not to shut all the treatment centers down.  The goal is to put inspections and rules and safeguards in place, and put enforcement mechanisms in place, so that there is *good* data on which treatments are best for which kids.  We also need good data on how the various facilities are doing at meeting the standards.  We need the facilities with some problems meeting the standards to either be brought into compliance or closed.

So the appropriate remedy, for example, for the school where you went might *NOT* be closure.

Instead, the appropriate remedies might be: regular surprise inspections to screen out false accusations from true ones; defined, professional guidelines about which extended family members the kids can write uncensored, unscreened letters to--basically any sober, non-criminal adult relative who would potentially be a fit guardian for children (Even adults who don't like the program are still automatically healthy models of sobriety and personal responsibility--and the kid's bond with even program-skeptic family members helps replace unhealthy friendships with solid long-term ties to family.  The pluses *way* outweigh any minuses.); defined intake screening procedures to divert inappropriately placed kids into more appropriate alternative arrangements (like foster care, a relative's care, a mental hospital to be stabilized the right way and then reevaluated, a more appropriate facility if this one's very inappropriate for that problem); training and certification for staffers in the skills they need--like when and how to apply restraint as safely as possible, and the risks of even properly applied restraints.

One of the other possible *benefits* of reforming the teen residential care system would be that if there were safeguards to verify that the teen *needed* to be there, then various forms of federal aid would kick in to help defray the costs for the parents, removing pressure on them to recruit other parents, and removing the pressure for facilities to make inappropriate admissions just to fill beds.

For one thing, federal law requires the state and local authorities to provide each child with a free, appropriate education no matter what the child's problems are and no matter what the child has done.

What that means in practice is that for the schools that either already are in compliance with the prospective standards OR are willing to get in compliance, could get teachers, curriculum materials, and books and other resources to bring the quality of schooling in the facilities up to where it really ought to be.

Get Real---*appropriate* admissions, funding assistance for better education quality, trained and certified professional staffers providing safe, quality care, and diversion of inappropriately placed kids to *appropriate* alternatives would benefit *everybody*.

There are human beings who want to be abusive monsters to other people---but there are relatively few of them in the mass of more or less nice people that makes up ordinary humanity.

The teen residential care industry is dysfuntional, it could be a whole lot better, and it needs help getting reformed to *be* better.

I'm glad you were lucky enough to get good care when you needed it.

*Most* people who have paid attention to this industry, whether they're generally program-skeptics or program-supporters, agree that the industry needs improvement.

In the center, there *is* quite a bit of common ground here.  If the programs could get past their knee-jerk responses and work *with* the critics to improve the whole system, a lot of good could be done.

Timoclea
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2004, 07:52:00 AM »
As I said before, it's not for everyone. And you're right there are those who didn't need to be there. Unfortunate yes. Mental illenesses, never met any of those cases. Unless you call suicidal tendancies to be in that category. Most were extreme cases.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2004, 10:40:00 AM »
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As I said before, it's not for everyone.


WWASP seems to think differently here. They accept EVERYONE and ANYONE who can pay, no matter what kind of problem they're dealing with. They accept kids who have been court ordered to their facilities for criminal offenses. They accept kids with substance abuse problems. They accept kids with learning disabilities, such as dylexia or dysgraphia. They accept kids with very minor problems, such as not getting along with a step parent or dating a person their parents do not approve of. They also admit kids with mental problems, as proven in many articles and survivors' statements.

These are all very different groups of children with very different problems and needs. But despite their differeing needs, WWASP provides all of them with the same program, and claims, in each and every one of these cases, that the the program is appropriate for the child in question. According to WWASP, their program is for anyone who's got the money, and in some cases, even those who don't.
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