Real Success

[Antny]

How's this for ya,

I started working with "Clayton" when he was 11 and he spent almost three years with me.  Mom's an alcoholic, and dad's abusive.  Clayton sexually abused his siblings, and the family dog.  

After almost three years of work at camp, Clayton was mature, responsible, and honest.  He stayed an extra month at camp after he had graduated just so he could go home on my birthday, as a present to me.  I took him home to his mom, and gave him last minute counseling about how to handle all the tough situations that would undoubtedly come up at home.  

He went to Jr. High and became a star athlete on the Football and Basketball teams.  He took up chess, and is intelligent and a straight A student.  He has helped his mom get sober, and is currently in high school now, looking to go on to college.

That's Success...there are two sides to your story.  I have many other specific examples.  You want me to start posting each one for you to read.  How about if I get the kids to write for you?  Yes, shit happens, but that doesn't negate all the incredible things that also happen.  I have seen lives be saved, so don't give me your negative slant bullshit!  I've been there, I've sweated, bled and cried with those kids.  So Fuck you and your bashing.  You save some lives, then talk to me about how easy it is!

[Anonymous]

Hi thanks for posting the Success story. I wonder how did you "cure" him from his sexually predatory behaviors? The world needs this information. Currently there are many thousands of sexual predators who need this cure! Wow even the medical community admits there is no known cure...but you all found it! Please share this wonderful news.

You owe it to the world and all its children. :roll:

[Anonymous]

Sorry forgot to log on.

The Graduate

[Deborah]

Rather than general success stories, I think people might be more interested in specifics. How WERE the teens 'changed' and do the ends justify the means. What were the programs methods? You didn't address the therapy described in the complaint- teen counseled to reinact his own rape, playing the victim. Is this the standard 'therapy'? As we've seen over and over, programs can turn out spit-shined kids who have only changed on the surface- have learned to act the way society demands.

Do the kids need to live in squalor to make this life-changing 'therapy' effective?

Squalor and exposure to the elements in inclimate weather seems to be adding insult to injury.
Sex offenders aren't born, they are first abused, imho. Have their abusers been punished? Removed from the homes they'll return to, when that is the case? Or again, is the child being punished for acting out their internalized distress? Learns the 'hard' way how to behave, only to be returned to an abusive situation.

Anthony, you seem like a very reasonable person, and a caring person. How can you justify their living conditions? The squalor alone, depicted in the video, should not be tolerated under any circumstance. Outhouses aren't even THAT bad, but a pee wall?  Pee should not be concentrated in one place like that. It's unsanitary at the very least.

[Anonymous]

Simply put Deborah there is no therapy with any kind of success rate for sex offenders. Personally I could care less if the offender lives in filth. When you go from victim to predator I say you no longer have rights. Oh and some people are just born predators. Going by the numbers many victims do become the abusers down the road, I don't think anyone can contest that fact. But sociopaths are often born than way needing no help to be devoid of a conscious. So call me callous but as long as these people can no longer hurt and victimize others I don't care if they are living in filth. My concern is the innocent (meaning non-predatory)teenager being victimized by the system.

[nite owl]

When an 11-year old acts out sexually - chances are that child was sexually abused.  It sounds like you did do some good with him. He will continue to need a counseling and may never heal from the deep wounds that he must have.  Hopefully he will not continue his predatory behavior as an adult and let history repeat itself.

God is the...refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They find no sanctuary in His arms, but...a kind of superiority, soothing to their...egos: He will set them above their betters.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher

[DarkRose]

Might I say...Wow Deborah! You really seem like a closed minded opinionated person.  Let me guess you'll probably never open up and see the other side so why do you keep asking your questions when you most likely will now listen to the answers.  I had family members that went to Woodside and now they have better lives.  You can say all the shit you want but basically you have obviously never experienced anything like this or have family that have so you will probably never really understand.  So unless you're really willing to LISTEN and TRY to understand i suggest you go and destroy other programs that keep sexual preditors off the streets.

[Nihilanthic]

IIRC, Deborah was involved in programs and seminars herself.   :razz:

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous

[Antny]

Well, that's an interesting topic.  As near as I can tell, we don't "cure" much of anything.  I will explain what I have seen to be effective in changing something internally.

Being intimately related to other human beings who are constantly diligently willing to hold you accountable for your behavior, and how it affects the relationship you have with them is undeniably powerful.  On a long term (years) basis, with repeated mistakes, consequences, and rebuilt relationships, along with genuine conversation about "feelings", an innate human value for others can be internalized.  Interestingly, this is the bond that a mother and child develop between birth and two.  That's what it is developmentally.  It's "love" for others.

You see, this "Relationship-based Treatment" modality is something that I have only seen at Woodside.  It is high liability, and yeilds highly effective results.

Of course, the empathy work done in the Therapy groups, with the LMSW/FT is also critical.  Owning that crime, presenting to a group of peers, and being able to be accepted afterwards is immensely moving.  You see, while most people want to see the perps as horrible people...who shooould be removed from society, they are not (IMHO).  They feel incredible guilt for what they have done, and that guilt typically drives them to continue on their devious cycles.

As in my example with Clayton, I truly believe, and five years of evidence support, that he has learned a lesson that he will never forget, and that he will be a responsible, productive member of society.

You see, what I see as the critical element provided in the Woodside Relationship Therapy model is that is is all intimately connected to empathy, and being responsible for your effect on the people around you....all the time.  Consequences in this model are not generic, formulaic standards.  They are made up in the moment, on the spot, and are flexible based on the status of the campers relationship with the staff.  It works...not all the time, but a large percentage.[ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-11-03 18:32 ]

[Anonymous]

Okay, I don't know you, but some of what you're saying, at least, is definitely *not* bullshit.

We know there are critical ages for learning things like language.  If you don't learn language by 12, you'll never be fluent.  If you don't learn a second language by 12, it will be a very rare person who develops fluency in a second language without giving up their first language.

There seems to be a critical age for learning empathy and remorse.  We don't know exactly where it is, but fourteen or fifteen is the best guess I can make based on what we covered in school and what I've read since.

There is no effective treatment for adult sociopaths or adult child molesters.

On the other hand, what you say about getting the kids to internalize empathy is consistent with everything I've read about incipient sociopaths and psychopaths.***  If you can get the kids to internalize empathy, that seems to be what "saves" the ones who don't go on to become true sociopaths as adults.

I can accept the possibility that the conditions were just the result of limited resources and underfunding, and that being accustomed to those conditions made them seem normal and acceptable when they were really far outside society's norms.  (Groupthink)

People, I don't think this place, for all its problems, is the same animal as WWASPS, Straight, etc.

This looks like a state facility (or subcontractor) with a reasonable treatment protocol but deplorable conditions, amounting to child neglect, probably as a result of underfunding.

Still needs to be reformed, but the different problems cry out for different solutions.

One of the things I notice of which I *definitely* approve is that these were kids with one, specific problem getting a treatment reasonably aimed at that one specific problem.  Although I presume (hope) co-occuring problems in individual sex offender kids were treated.

The conditions were, bluntly, horrendous child neglect.

The treatment was reasonable for the particular problem of the inmates, not a Lydia Pinkham stew of one-size-fits-all-maladies.

The kids had probably, in this case, been through due process in the juvenile justice system.

The place needed reform and oversight, badly, but not the *same* reforms other facilties need.

Timoclea
***my degree's in psychology, but I dabble in criminology.  What you're saying, treatment wise, sounds credible to me---as opposed to the psychological snake oil peddled by a lot of RTC's for teens that charge rich mommies and daddies an arm and a leg.

[Antny]

Interesting, Timoclea...

Yes, I'd have to say that it's a problem of underfunding, mostly. The largest percentage of Woodside's budget came from donations.  It's a non-profit coorporation, and the rate of pay for CPS and Juvenile Probation kids isn't much.  The camp does fundraisers, actively seeks grant money, and does everything it can to make it, but it's not tax money that makes it possible.  Staff get paid minimum wage, mostly.  Nobody does that work for the money, they do it to make a difference.

 The footage broadcast and pics taken were the "worst case" scenarios.  You don't see footage of the low elements challenge course on site, or of the successful group work, or of the school house, or of anything else that is wonderful about the place.  What has been made public (Thanks to Mrs Strayhorn and her Media connections) is the absolute worst case scenarios.  You see pictures of the recycling or trash knocked over with no explanation.  Picture this, you wake up in the AM, do chores, clean camp, then head "up top" for school.  You don't go back to camp util the afternoon.  Squirelly, raccoons, etc can get into the trash and do their thing.  Then when you come back, one of the kids who has the "trash and recyclables" chore cleans it up.  Not quite as horrible as just seeing the pic is it?

I don't know what can be done, but I am fighting the state about this till the bitter end.  You see, it's clear to me that there are plenty of juvenile offenders out there, and I have never seen or even heard of a more effective treatment.  I've worked at Brown Schools, Pegasus, Lifeworks, and others.  I've looked around and talked to lots of people and it seems to me that a horrible injustice has been done in shutting Woodside down.  In fact, they've created an even bigger problem.  Now you have a surplus of offenders in the "system".  They are in large part being bounced from one 90 day emergency shelter to the next, where they truly are a danger to other non-offender type kids in need.  Traged I say!

[Antny]

Anthony, you seem like a very reasonable person, and a caring person. How can you justify their living conditions? The squalor alone, depicted in the video, should not be tolerated under any circumstance. Outhouses aren't even THAT bad, but a pee wall?  Pee should not be concentrated in one place like that. It's unsanitary at the very least.





"
[/quote]
Ok, Deb...I don't want to let you be victim to the media propaganda campaign here, so let me clarify what has been dubbed "the infamous pee wall"  Say you're in the woods, and you want some privacy to go pee.  You're a guy, so you can stnd up.  The most reasonable thing to do is to put up a wall to stand behind.  The wall is built in deminsions so that the counselors can stand there and pee, and still see the camp looking over the wall (supervision is critical).  Where does all that pee go?  Well, you see, on the other side of the wall there is a large funnel connected to a PVC pipe run into the ground.  The pipe is burried at a "bubble fall slant" and connected to 40 feet of perforated pipe that runs away from camp at a down hill slope.

Does that make a little more sense than what the media portrayed?  That's how it is!  I know, I built two different pee areas there!

As for the living conditions, does it ever occur to you that mankind has lived for thousands of years without the luxuries of air conditioning, microwaves and television.  The camps all have running water.  The shelters all have roofs.  We had ample bedding (mostly army surplus), and when it's cold we sat around the fire.  The counselors lived with the kids for a couple of days at a time.  The shift work was typically 60 hour shifts.  It generates a very familial, communal sort of atmosphere.  In the summer, each bed was equipped with a mosqiuito net, and we had a cold water shower in camp.  People all over the world live in much worse conditions all their life.  These kids got 3 good meals per day, shelter and safety,  Maslow's heirarchy at work.  Food, Safety, Shelter.  Those were the three promises we (the facility) made to the kids upon arrival, and we bent over backwards to always keep those three promises, no matter what!  Comfort was not one of them.  In fact...some of the kids even felt that they were "spoiled" at camp.  They had radios, remote controlled cars, gameboys, walkmans, etc...

This is reality, not propaganda.  It was not a vacation at the Lodge by the lake...it was a RTC in the woods, with a very humanistic, relationship oriented approach to treatment of sex offenders.

[Deborah]

Tim, How did you conclude that WT is a state facility or that they ?treat? a single or special population or dx?  

From their website:
WT is an ideal solution for boys 10 ? 18 that have experienced trauma, physical or sexual abuse, broken relationships with family members, sexually reactive behavior, or drug abuse.
Camper Profile: We work with a wide range of problems. Typically, some of the issues facing the boy may be Difficulty handling structure, rules and society in general. Little respect for authority figures or peers; Low self- esteem  Depression and anger, Little recognition for the needs, rights and wants of others; Poor or deteriorating academic skills, Sexual issues.
 
A 12 month follow up of youth released in 2002 found only 14% in residential placement. or more restrictive than camp. 6% with any new conviction or violation of probation. 80% were enrolled in school, gainfully employed or both.
When times become hard to bear because your son has become uncontrollable within the home, school or society, we can provide the structure, therapy and guidance your child needs to get back on track.
It is a difficult decision to consider placement of your child in an unfamiliar surrounding. We are here to help your teen and have gained over 20 years experience in providing a stable and professional environment. Our staff is comprised of members who have years of experience in dealing with the individual issues facing each boy.
http://www.woodsidetrails.com/

48 boys. 22 placed by CPS. What of the other 26? Private pay? What were their ?issues??

Was the pee wall approved by the county? Or does Bastrop have regs for sewage? How about a composting toilet, or an outhouse, minimum? More environmentally sensitive and sanitary. While the boys are throwing up their make shift tents, why not construct an outhouse too? And while I see the benefit of kids learning skills such as carpentry, they should be compensated for any work they do that ?improves? the property, or any work that the facility would otherwise have to pay to have done. That is an equal exchange, rather than a punishment and models respect.

Is it impossible to keep meds in a locked cabinet? How would a kid gain access and OD, twice, if they were locked up, as the state requires?

Is there a problem with hiring a trash service which would provide dumpsters? Who picks up the trash/recycling when the critters get into it? I'm sure its not the staff or owner. Is that sanitary? Are the kids provided with gloves? Doesn't that attract flys, rats, maggots?

At least two people have claimed that there is no successful therapy for the abused-turned-offender. I think that is a sad commentary to begin with, and why any psych student should get most of the education outside the walls of academia. Abuse is abuse, and sexual abuse is no different than a person being beat and then beating their own child. WT claims to have an 80% success rate. How is that being accomplished? The fact that they stop the sexual behavior but may continue to commit other crimes, is a red flag for me?

You both talk about teaching them to be responsible for their effect on others, and remorse. It makes more sense to me to keep the focus of their ?treatment? on their own abusive experience. When that is ?resolved?, when they are at peace with having been abused themselves, remorse for their own behavior happens spontaneously. I find it hard to believe that someone who has been hurt this way is going to be able to feel (internalize) empathy or remorse, when they are still angry and hurt about their own abuse, albeit it may be suppressed and difficult to access. They need to receive empathy and respect before they can give it, imho, and experience. Put into context it makes no more sense than it would to expect one of their ?victims? to feel empathy for them after they had been molested or raped. Ain?t gonna happen, right away anyway. There are feelings and thoughts to deal with before empathy and forgiveness emerges.

And I don?t feel it is ever too late for a person to acquire respect for self and others, despite what the APA would have us to believe. That is their limited view and supports the pharmaceutical quick-fix ?solution?.

The general theory presented here sounds reasonable on the surface, but nothing has been said about the specifics. What are the consequences? It?s great that they aren?t general and formulaic, but that only works if you have reasonable and rational staff who aren?t running their own power trips. Baiting the kids for a reaction so s/he can feel their own sadistic pleasure that comes from punishing.

And nothing has been said specifically about the ?therapy?.

Sexual ?predator?. Seems once they are labeled with that deplorable Scarlet letter, that its next to impossible for anyone to feel empathy for the kids situation. When a person is stigmatized with this label, people tend to forget that they were first hurt, taught how to abuse; and in many cases consider it quiet ?normal? behavior.

The political-media machine?
What was different the day the cameras were there? I?m still not clear on which of the photos were of WT, except for the sleeping structures and the pee wall.
I?ve toured Pathfinders. From what I observed and was told, it is just a step above WT, in that the outdoor sleeping structures were permanent.
The facility you mentioned in another thread, Pegasus, looks like it is a step above Pathfinders. Is the argument, ?oh well, they were on the streets, a primitive camp is a step above that??  Can you provide a link to the film coverage you mentioned? And what I?d be looking at there, are the kids providing unpaid labor to do the upkeep of the programs (individual?s) private property/investment? If so, that is wrong.

If adequate funds are not available to treat these kids humanely, then the state and these programs need to get out of the business of placing and ?treating? teens and let the juvenile justice system deal with it. At least in juvie they had a roof over their head. What would prevent the implementation of your ?therapeutic? program within the juvenile system, if its as successful as you claim it to be?

Strayhorn may have some political aspirations.  If that?s what it takes to bring badly needed reform, so be it. I don?t think she?s over reacting, but doing her job. Let the chips fall where they may. And I absolutely know that it takes a pretty hideous situation for the state to shut a facility down. The system has needed overhauling for a long time. When a child is 5 times more likely to be injured or killed in out-of-home placements, something is terribly wrong.  I personally believe that time in nature can be very therapeutic, but not the way I?ve seen it done. What is the therapeutic value of a ?primitive camp?? In freezing to death in the winter? Cold showers? Seems like it is more about being the most economical venue to quarantine the ?predators?.

I appreciate Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs. He also said that a person needs Love before they could acquire esteem. And before love, the basics survival needs of food, shelter, safety. The things in question here are shelter and safety.  As for the non-profit, they do it because they love it explanation doesn't fly with me. People involved with NPs can and do earn large salaries.
People don't do things if their needs aren't met.

[Anonymous]

So admit the mess and throw the funding problem, and the capital improvements of the facilities problem,  back in the legislators' court.  Admit that you just couldn't make it to the level of cleanliness and facilities the state would like on what they were paying per kid.

For example, with trash and recyclables---there are highly raccoon-resistant designs out there.  Be clear about the problem, and enumerate what it would cost to fix it.

I'm serious.  Your best chance to do some good here is to admit and enumerate the problems found, think of a better way to meet the standard (or several options of better ways), and come up with what those improvements would cost to implement.

If a "pee wall" facility for allowing adults to supervise while peeing is inadequate---then come up with what would be adequate.  A booth with one-way glass and a urinal, perhaps, leading to a septic tank or other actual human-waste-disposal plumbing?

You need to have a more thorough mosquito safety protocol in place, now that West Nile is out there.

You need to have at least one large air-conditioned building or clinic (if you didn't already) to deal with children who become ill because of the heat.

Some of the open structures would be greatly improved by permanently installed screening.

Come up with a long list of possible improvements, everything from basic health needs to a "dream" wish list and cost them out.  (Legislators are constitutionally incapable of approving a plan without cutting something.  Oblige them by including some things that would be nice, but that they can cut.)

Make it *clearly* a funding problem rather than a wilful child neglect problem.

You point out all the things people lived without for millenia.  The problem is, people *died* without some of those things, too.  In Texas, as in Georgia where I live, air conditioning is not a luxury, it's a health necessity.  Heat can kill, and even if you don't use the AC equipped spaces most of the time, you need to have them available in case unusually high temperatures or a kid's ill health require temporarily bedding them down on a cot in an AC building.  For example, suppose you get a kid who's legally a Texan but been living in Minnesota and isn't acclimated at all?  He could *die* from the heat.  

And face it, please, the place was a cholera epidemic waiting to happen.  

Look, you made the best of it because you didn't have the funds to make it better.  And you told yourself it wasn't as bad as it was so you could cope.  That's understandable.

How you "fight" is, while you say the molestation didn't happen, you go ahead and admit the obvious problems with the conditions and help make yourself part of improving those problems.

But it's *entirely* fair to make it clear to the politicians that if they feel certain improvements are essential, they have to *fund* those improvements.

Timoclea

[Deborah]

No the state does not have to fund those improvements. I don't think that it has been determined that this is a 'funding problem'.

WT could set their fee to care for CPS kids, based on the cost of providing the kids real needs; and the state would either accept it or go on to the next facility.

What's up with Pegasus. Their facility at least looks clean and sanitary... which obviously says nothing about the 'therapy'. Where do their funds come from to enable them to provide a sanitary facilty?

I lived in central tx for 22 years. It is hotter than hedes in the summer. And you don't get much breeze in the pines. They need fans at the minimum. There's not a parent around who'd send their kid to summer camp to live in those conditions. Now why, is it okay for 'offenders'? The fact is, its not.

Charge what you need to charge, or get out of the business.

And here's the real kicker.... WT was licensed. SOME lame brain from the state licensed this place, as is. Heaven help the kids. The real victims in all this.