The Truth about these Schools (New Parents Please Read)

[Brown]

I am tired of reading and hearing about all of this stuff that has supposedly happened in these programs.  I read through alot of these forums daily, and i respond to a lot of them too.  I think that a lot of the people that post on these things have no idea what they are actually talking about in the first place.  

I graduated from the program, and while I was in no way happy about being there.  Or even happy about having to stay to graduate, I did it, and no matter what anyone says, there are NO "screams", pits, hard restraints in which people get slammed through tables or onto concrete.  All of the stories like this that are posted all come from either parents that are mad because they sent their kids to the program and then there kids failed when they pulled them.  Or they are from the kids themselves that make stuff up, because they are angry that they couldn't make it through.

[Anonymous]

Brown - don't forget the competing educational consultants or other programs that WWASPS won't acknowledge for referring to them.  Or, the parents that are divorced and one admits and the other is against it and uses the the unfounded abuse allegations as a weapon.  I've met many kids that graduated, some long ago, and none will say they enjoyed their healing process, but none ever said they were being abused, except the first few weeks.

Some parents think their kid who was smoking weed and munching on whatever before they went in is being starved because they lose weight.  That happens when you eat healthy meals and exercise, right?  I guess it all boils down to what they want to believe or what agenda they have.  One parent is on a rampage and saying all sorts of crazy things to justify pulling her kid.  Another feels she can raise a child better because the mother is incompetent to make any decisions regarding her own child's welfare.  Didn't this woman also raise the mother? Many take a stand against personal growth seminars, many who have never even gone, but are fearful they will be brainwashed. These are the same people that think Dr. Phil is brainwashing millions of people on t.v. everyday.  

The stories go on an on, however, the most important thing to know is there have never been any proven abuse allegations, ever.

You didn't say if you were in a WWASPS program, but many other programs have the same things said about them.  Whoever you are, keep on rockin'!!

[Anonymous]

On 2004-10-11 17:38:00, Brown wrote:

"I am tired of reading and hearing about all of this stuff that has supposedly happened in these programs.  I read through alot of these forums daily, and i respond to a lot of them too.  I think that a lot of the people that post on these things have no idea what they are actually talking about in the first place.  



I graduated from the program, and while I was in no way happy about being there.  Or even happy about having to stay to graduate, I did it, and no matter what anyone says, there are NO "screams", pits, hard restraints in which people get slammed through tables or onto concrete.  All of the stories like this that are posted all come from either parents that are mad because they sent their kids to the program and then there kids failed when they pulled them.  Or they are from the kids themselves that make stuff up, because they are angry that they couldn't make it through.

"

  I would have to agree with you on this.  I also graduated from one of the program listed on this site, and it's FAR from ANYTHING on described on here.
  Pretty sad how bitterness and anger just seep out of these people here. Thing is they're SO into it, and have done this for so long- it's become natural (habit) for them, and I don't think they know there's BETTER out in the world.
  How much good is posting all the crap, cursing, and totally destructive thoughts doing for them OR anyone else for that matter???

[cherish wisdom]

Why don't you grads of the programs read the story and court report regarding Aaron Bacon - how he was starved to death and abused. How staff members mocked him just before he slumped over dead from severe paretinitis as a result of nearly one month of starvation and exposure to the cold.  Why don't you read about Tony Haynes - who also died at the hands of brutal staff members.  It's enough to make you sick...

So - where did you go - where were these miracle programs that transformed you into decent, productive young men?  We'd sure like to know which programs are not abusive - So far I haven't heard on any.
Enlighten us with you experience........

The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.
--William Safire

[Brown]

Where did I go?  I attended Spring Creek Lodge.  I was there for 13 months before I graduated.  In the time that I was there, and now that I have been out, I never heard of anyone being starved.  At Spring Creek and alot of the other WWASP programs, other kids would try and starve themselves (I myself tried it).  But if we don't stop they will send us to a mental institute where they can feed us through a tube.  To be honest with you, I don't know alot about those cases.  All I know is that the entire time that I was in the program, I never once was "mocked" by a staff.  And I never saw another student get mocked by a staff either.  

You can mock what I did all you want, by refering to them as "miracle programs that transformed me."  It doens't bother me.  I know what I did, and I am proud of what I accomplished.

I have had friends, that I met at Graduation, that graduated from Casa, Jamaica, Cross Creek, Ivy Ridge and I have not heard a single complaint from any of them of any abuse at any of there facilities.  I myself graduated from Spring Creek, so I can personnaly attest that there was no abuse there.  So there, now you can tell everyone you know 5 facilities that have no abuse.  I don't know who you are, or what your relationship is with the program.  But clearly you are pretty pissed off about it.  If you would only do any real research and really look at these places(That doesn't just mean the negative sites) I think you would find out these are places that are doing good.  You should be trying to help keep these places running, and trying to support the kids that are there.  Instead of trying to get them shut down, abadoning the kids that are still there.

You say that I haven't done any of my homework, and that I haven't need to read stories and court reportings.  Let me tell you I have done more research on this topic then you ever could.  How do I know this?  Well, I have first hand expierence of it.  I was there for 13 months.  And even since I graduated I have continued, by staffing adult seminars, and posting on web sites like this, and getting in touch with all the graduates I know.

[supportstaff]

:wave: Hi Brown, thanks for your support of SCLA

[supportstaff]

:wave: Hi Brown, thanks for your support of SCLA

[Deborah]

Casa is closed. Ivy Ridge under investigation. A suicide at Spring Creek last week. Tranquility Bay is reported to be the most abusive of all, even by those who support the program.

There is a definite difference between program advocates and activists, in terms of what constitutes abuse.

Some kids forgive their parents for 'beating the devil out of them' too. They can even be convinced that they deserved it and that it was beneficial to their development and character. Doesn't mean it was or that it wasn't abuse.

Brown, you are not qualified to speak for the industry, not even for WWASP facilities. The only thing you're qualified to do is tell your story. Further, you are out of line to suggest that others stories are lies- perpetrated by angry, bitter people. When people have been deceived and ripped off, they tell others so that others might avoid the same mistake.

If you are tired of reading accounts that are shared here, you always have the 'choice' to go back where one only hears happy stories. No one is forcing you to be here. You are a free bird now. You do have a choice. Or have you noticed.

[Brown]

Oh I know that I am a "free bird" now.  But thanks for your concerc.  Now what makes you an expert?  What makes you qualified to sit here and tell all these things?  Were you in the program, did you yourself expierence any abuse?  No.  So lets look at the two of us.  Me, been to the program, been home done a lot of research, talked to other graduates, and so on.  You, you have sat there, and only read the negative.  You yourself said that the "happy sites" are censored so you can't see them.  So you have only ever gotten to see one side of the program.  

So how is it you think you are qualified to make all these statements.  All you are doing is sitting there and retyping things that you yourself have only read over the internet.

Your right, I am young.  But that doesn't mean anything.  I think because I am young makes me have a better view of this situation.  These schools are are for young people, not old people.  So I think I got that one on you too.

You just want me to leave so that you can go back and sit here and dwell in how "horrible" these places are.  It bothers you that there might be another side to this story, that you refuse to look at.  You have been doing this for a long time, so it is going to be even harder for you to admit.  But thats ok.  I can't and don't want to force you to think anything.  That is exactly what you accuse the program of doing.

[Deborah]

My dear,
You obviously have not read all the posts at Fornits, as you claim, or you'd know that I have direct experience and knowledge of the industry.
With two sons who were harmed- one resulted in a lawsuit that we won, a neighbor who died in a program, a friend who was abused, and numerous other aquaintences who had nothing but negative experiences; I feel more than qualified to warn other parents of the potential dangers inherent to the industry.

You would be wise to share your experience and lay off judging others. You will not silence the voice of those who have been harmed.

[Anonymous]

I don't think that any of us our "experts" but each of us are "experts" on our particular program that we attended to.    

I'm sorry that I have to say this, but... I do think that you are out of line saying that some of the people here are lying about being abused.  How do you know for a FACT that this is true?  Maybe while you were there physical abuse didn't occur"  Also, maybe you were just unaware (due to the intense mental work that you were going through)?  One more thing, there is also something called emotional abuse.  

It really just depends on what you charaterize as abuse.  Physical definately shouldn't occur and so does emotional abuse, but like I said, it depends on what you haved named as YOUR own personal abuse.

I don't want to tell you what and how to post here.  It is a free country and you can say whatever it is you want to say, but you really have no evidence that all these people that post here about their abuse didn't happen!  I think just talking about what YOU do know, your own experiences about the program that YOU went to, and how much it helped/ benefited YOU!  

Personally, this is what I do.  I attended Cascade School from 1997 and graduated in 1999.  I just recently began posting here and I write my experiences on these types of schools.  

What happened in my experience was that I was not aware of any physical abuse, but who am I to rule out the fact that it may have occured and I was simply just not aware of it?!  You are so caught up in the emotional work that you are walking around unaware of anything else but emotionally drained.  

What happended in my experience is that I do believe that there is a form of emotional abuse that I have suffered.  An emotional breakdown in a manner that I do not agree with and a building back up in their way of thinking.  I think this is what many people on this site call "brainwashing".  But this is not how I am referring to it, just a practice that I don't agree with.

In my experience, even though I did graduate from my program, was the model "cascadian", and had no physical harm done against me, I did not enjoy the school or believe that it helped me at all but hindered me.  I do not support sending your children to these types of schools.  This is just solely based on my experience with these types of schools.  I believe that it has emotionally scarred me and it has taken sometime for me to deal with these experiences.  

Brown, I too have moved on, and I must admit that the first couple of years were rough since I could think on my own now and no longer had to think the way I was taught by the school.  I try not to dwell in the past but believe that if by telling my experiences here it may jst possibly help someone either with coping with their experiences, or a decision to send their child to one of these places.

I also want to say that I think that it is great that you had such a great experience with your program and seriously, more power to you!  But you have to understand that not everyone feels the way that you do and it doesn't mean that they are lying.

Also, I have researched a lot on these types of schools and programs and if you would like, please look at these threads that I've posted earlier.  These are actually from a textbook, "A Guide to Treatments that Work".  It is proven in the text that these types of programs are not efficacious!

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#63699

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#63698

[Brown]

Thank you for writing that.  You are right, and like I have said now a couple of times, I can not rule out any or all abuse.  I wish that I could.  All I am trying to get accross is that I storngly do believe that the people that post here, that have only ever read something on the internet, and then say that it is a fact.  But won't even listen to any other side of the story.  I completely support what you are doing.  I think that it is great that you are telling everyone what your story is.

I just want these people to look deaper and to look at other things beside the same old stories that have been put up here for years.

About the emotional abuse that kids are put through.  Your right, there is a lot of the program that is insistant on people "confronting" eachother and telling them what they think.  But when this is done properly it doesn't actually hurt the person.  It doesn't tear them down, and if the person feels that it did.  There is always someone there that will help them.  These "confrontations" are only done in controlled places, where there is someone monitoring to make sure it doesn't ever get personal.

[Nihilanthic]

Brown, again, there is no freaking oversight or regulation. There is no control and accreditation, no requirement for a professional to run it, no review, and no transparency.

You talk abuot looking deeper. So do I. You complain about old stories - NOTHING HAS CHANGED!

As long as any idiot with a loan can open a place up like this and without so much as a clue about how to treat people, just take money and kids, break them down and have low-paid dolts treat them like crap, give them stupid worksheets to do, throw them in the pokey and dogpile on someone who is 'out of control' or because they feel like it, we're not going to shut up.

If you open up a school you need accredited teachers, professionals to run it, and I guess anyone could do administration or janitorial stuff.

You open up a place that makes food you get health inspections, you need to have a clue how to make food that tastes good, and make sure that your food preparation area looks clean and works.

You open up one of these facilties you don't need jack shit. You can do whatever you want to the kids because they're unable to talk to anyone, their parents are told to not believe them and there is nobody out there to try to look out for them except people like us.

Also, frankly, I just don't believe in the whole incarceration/rights taken away/be a slave to get out model. It doesn't treat anything. It just makes them act obedient to get out of there. The underlying problem is still there, just covered up. Unnecessary suffering is *NOT* emotional growth, so don't go there either.
 
I was put on Prozac for depression. At 15 I got rid of it, felt my emotions come back, and dealt with the problem - how I was treated. I always had bad social skills and treated it with speech therapy and having some fun and going out and having fun.

I tried not to work for, you know, anyone who ate children with their bare hands. I won't pretend that I was ideologically consistent.


--Dick Morris; Political consultant for Bill Clinton, Trent Lott and Tom Ridge

[Deborah]

***All I am trying to get accross is that I storngly do believe that the people that post here, that have only ever read something on the internet, and then say that it is a fact. But won't even listen to any other side of the story.

Who Brown? Can you be specific about a person who posts here? Or is this just more of your whinning? Whinning because people are telling their stories which run counter to what you want and need to believe?

Good to hear you say that you can't rule out any and all abuse. You have made blanket statments to that effect since you arrived. You are misinformed and, again, should stick with what you know. Your experience.

In case you haven't noticed, you're being confronted- be honest. Don't exaggerate.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-10-12 09:39:00, Brown wrote:

"Thank you for writing that.  You are right, and like I have said now a couple of times, I can not rule out any or all abuse.  I wish that I could.  All I am trying to get accross is that I storngly do believe that the people that post here, that have only ever read something on the internet, and then say that it is a fact.  But won't even listen to any other side of the story.  I completely support what you are doing.  I think that it is great that you are telling everyone what your story is.



I just want these people to look deaper and to look at other things beside the same old stories that have been put up here for years.



About the emotional abuse that kids are put through.  Your right, there is a lot of the program that is insistant on people "confronting" eachother and telling them what they think.  But when this is done properly it doesn't actually hurt the person.  It doesn't tear them down, and if the person feels that it did.  There is always someone there that will help them.  These "confrontations" are only done in controlled places, where there is someone monitoring to make sure it doesn't ever get personal."

Brown--I've talked personally to an ex-staffer at a facility near my husband's home town.

She's not a "disgruntled" anything---she just doesn't work there anymore.

She was positive about the facility she worked in, and was not afraid to get down to the details and nuts and bolts of how the program worked and what kind of kids they accepted into it.

While they did have kids who needed a teenage equivalent of a time-out camp one on one with a staffer, I'm very familiar with the climate where they are, and the supplies provided to the teen were closely analagous to what my husband carried around when he camped in the same general stretches of woods as a teen in a Boy Scout Explorer's Post (a post is a troop, not some kind of cabin or something).

One of the things she said about many of the facilities that are most widely criticized on Fornits is that she wouldn't advocate any parent sending their child to *any* facility in Utah or outside the US, and when I mentioned several particularly notorious facilities, she said that she had had to open up trauma files on kids they got in as transfers from those programs.

Transfers = the parents got red flags about the notorious place and pulled their kid and put them in the facility where she worked, instead.

There *was* verbal abuse that happened while she was there.  And she got it stopped.  What happened, occasionally, was that they would get a new hire who was under the mistaken impression they were a boot camp and that he/she had carte blanche to scream abuse at the kids---and when caught (as they typically were, quickly), said new hires were fired.

She could tell from the way the kids behaved when something was "wrong," and would take steps to find out what it was (she worked in therapy)--including things like taking the supervisor where the new hire was screaming at the kids, but taking her around the back of the hill so the guy couldn't see the supervisor coming, and the supervisor could just stand there a few minutes and listen---he was so outta there.

I don't agree with everything her program does.

I believe a child's place is in the home.  I believe involuntary residential treatment should be sharply limited with lots of oversight.

That said, as one of the people on Fornits who is not, myself, a survivor of one of these places, I'm hardly knee-jerk.

I don't want to end residential treatment.  I want to reform it so that it's quality care with safeguards and oversight, instead of just hit or miss.

Timoclea