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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2004, 07:50:00 PM »
Spots - you say the same person writes all the articles?  Who might that be?  The editor from last year is not currently involved.  You have a lot of negative comments, but nothing to back it up as fact.  Posting the link had a question and it has not be answered.  

If this publication is so full of bullshit, then why haven't you cancelled it?  

As for John Travolta and Tom Cruise being in Scientology "brainwashing cult," it doesn't seem to be a bad thing.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2004, 08:33:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-21 16:50:00, Anonymous wrote
As for John Travolta and Tom Cruise being in Scientology "brainwashing cult," it doesn't seem to be a bad thing.  "


Tell that to Lisa McPherson.

 DEATH OF A SCIENTOLOGIST

http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientol ... entologist
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Offline spots

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« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2004, 10:11:00 PM »
>>>"Spots - you say the same person writes all the articles?  Who might that be?  The editor from last year is not currently involved.  

Answer:  I'm not talking about one individual person.  I'm saying the "tone" of The Source is formulaic, i.e., all the same, as is all jargon, seminar responses, examples of "success" within The Program.  IOW, Life According to The Program...no exceptions. Try to think beyond the box here, Anon.  I'm talking about The Big Picture, and you're sniping about *which* editor is writing things.  

>>>If this publication is so full of bullshit, then why haven't you cancelled it?

Answer: I take each issue and stash it in my very large file of WWASPS things.  I have print-offs from Fornits, articles in newspapers, her letters to me, The Source, etc.  Maybe sometime in the future, my kid will want to peruse these various items, and will have the education and sensitivity to understand exactly what *bullshit* was being fed to the public, as opposed to the truth as she lived it.  

>>>As for John Travolta and Tom Cruise being in Scientology "brainwashing cult," it doesn't seem to be a bad thing.  "

Mr. Travolta and Mr. Cruz have their own agenda.  I personally don't have an opinion about their Scientology values, because I know absolutely zero-zilch-nada about how these beliefs impact their lives or those of people around them.  Do you?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2004, 10:39:00 PM »
Spots, You are so right onin your observations of the Source.

Glenda babe once ask that I write an article for the Source about our walk in the pardf in San Francisco back in May 2001.It was a Landre fraud, I mean fundraiser.

Anyway my article was never published.It was adoring enough probably.

The fact about kids committing suicide and how if they had only Graduated it would never have happened was something that worked on me.One of my biggest fears was suicide. The are excellant at creating fear.

Once again I'm impressed Spots with your insightfulness. I wish you had been my friend to help me see the truth when I needed it back in the day when I was a Program cult member and my kid was being assaulted by the wwaspies.

Keep on telling it like it is. Someone may hear the truth.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #94 on: December 22, 2004, 12:11:00 AM »
Scientology allegedly treats wealthy celebrities very differently from the rank and file.

Timoclea
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2004, 03:52:00 PM »
Spots wrote: "In that length of time, it has become dreadfully obvious that one person, the editor, creates and produces this magazine...not the many "contributing" students and parents. She tailors the articles, writes the quotes, spouts Program verbage and jargon..."

Spots then writes: " I'm not talking about one individual person..."

Too funny!

Maybe, just maybe the articles have the same tone because they're all families once in crisis and now healing in their own way.  That in itself does tend to take on the same "tone."   The editor does create and produce the magazine, but doesn't write it.  I know for fact that the articles are not written by one person, but in fact, written by each and every person whose name appears on each one.  

Can you answer the question originally posed? Where does it appear that these people are in a cult?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2004, 05:18:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-22 12:52:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Spots wrote: "In that length of time, it has become dreadfully obvious that one person, the editor, creates and produces this magazine...not the many "contributing" students and parents. She tailors the articles, writes the quotes, spouts Program verbage and jargon..."



Spots then writes: " I'm not talking about one individual person..."



Too funny!



Maybe, just maybe the articles have the same tone because they're all families once in crisis and now healing in their own way.  That in itself does tend to take on the same "tone."   The editor does create and produce the magazine, but doesn't write it.  I know for fact that the articles are not written by one person, but in fact, written by each and every person whose name appears on each one.  



Can you answer the question originally posed? Where does it appear that these people are in a cult?   "


Some cult-like features of WWASPS (or many of the other non-WWASPS teen behavior mod facilities) are:

1) They charge a great deal of money.
2) They have a definite organizational jargon
3) They strongly encourage members to recruit new members.
4) They promise "salvation" from the fate of being deadorinjail if you "graduate", or if you keep your child there until he/she graduates
5) They require members to surrender physical control over their immediate environment for a period of time and put them through an emotionally intensive experience at which the organization's major content and beliefs are passed on. (seminars, for the parents.  facilities, for the kids)
6) While *in theory* they allow that some people may not need their salvation, *in practice* virtually anybody is told they need WWASPS or their kid will be deadorinjail *unless* either the parents don't have the money, or the kid is too violent to be worth the trouble.
7) Group drop outs are vilified---their kid didn't "graduate" so they must have succumbed to "manipulation", and procedures are in place to try to recruit back dropouts (via guarantees)
:cool: Ongoing group participation is encouraged by trying to recruit kids in as staff, or to get kids or parents to continue group participation by providing testimonials for the group.
9) Critics of the group are vilified, to the point that the group actually brought a (losing) lawsuit to try to silence its critics.  Critical kids are vilified as liars and manipulators, critical parents are vilified as dupes of their rotten kids.

You may notice that some of these features, like having a specialized jargon, could be reflective of almost any organized group of people.  The focus on raising money could be applied to any charity or political campaign or business.

These features aren't supposed to be absolutely definitive of whether a group is or is not a cult.  The truth is that different organizations have different degrees of authoritarianism and control, and different degrees of emphasis on recruiting, and different degrees of emphasis on fundraising.

A club that goes on regular fishing or camping trips---like the Boy Scouts----would have the physical control of the member's environment for the days on the trip.

It's not any one feature that's bad, and just because one group is more authoritarian and more pervasive and enveloping throughout the different parts of its members' lives than another doesn't mean *either* group is necessarily bad.

Just like almost any ordinary person you meet shows *some* symptoms of mental illness doesn't mean everyone's crazy.  It's not so much a difference of kind, as a difference of degree.

You have to look at the whole picture.

Looking at the entire picture of WWASPS as an organization, and many similar behavior mod facilities, they have enough cultish features at a high enough intensity that any responsible person would be worried about them.

Timoclea
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2004, 07:04:00 PM »
Timoclea - Interesting twist to what really is, at least from my personal experience.  Here's my personal view in response to what you define as cult like:

1) They charge a great deal of money.
1) They offer a service that insurance doesn't pay for, nor state funds, etc., Yes, parents are responsible for the tuition.

2) They have a definite organizational jargon
2) If by "jargon" you mean "languaging", I agree.  Instead of using words like "I messed up", they use "so what, now what? or "What can I do differently? " Much of the "jargon" is meant to replace negative language with positive "healing" language.

3) They strongly encourage members to recruit new members.
3) Not really the way it is.  Parents that weren't able to find help locally or searched for a long time and kept running into brick walls are more than happy to share what it has meant to them. Giving back, paying it forward, or whatever term you prefer.    

4) They promise "salvation" from the fate of being deadorinjail if you "graduate", or if you keep your child there until he/she graduates.
4) no where do they "promise" anything.  Completing the program gives a warranty that you can re-admit at no charge if your teen reverts to old behaviors before 18. Graduation doesn't "insure" success. Graduation does say that we've completed something that took a lot of deep, inner work.  What we do with it, or not, is our choice, not dictated by anyone else.
 
5) They require members to surrender physical control over their immediate environment for a period of time and put them through an emotionally intensive experience at which the organization's major content and beliefs are passed on. (seminars, for the parents. facilities, for the kids)
5) yes, just like I did when my kids were in public school,  scouts, etc.  Adding that the seminars don't tell anyone what to believe.  It is an individual choice to take what they learn (choices, accountability, personal values, etc.) and apply it to their daily lives. The only belief many of us share is a belief in ourselves.  

6) While *in theory* they allow that some people may not need their salvation, *in practice* virtually anybody is told they need WWASPS or their kid will be deadorinjail *unless* either the parents don't have the money, or the kid is too violent to be worth the trouble.
6) Untrue - normal teen acting out does not warrant admission.  High risk behavior, yes, I would recommend "taking a look"at this option. It sounds like we bully parents into admitting their child - funny.
 
7) Group drop outs are vilified---their kid didn't "graduate" so they must have succumbed to "manipulation", and procedures are in place to try to recruit back dropouts (via guarantees)
7) Many reasons why a student doesn't complete - For me personally, it's their choice and none of my business of the "why's." Blaming the "program" however, isn't being accountable.

:cool: Ongoing group participation is encouraged by trying to recruit kids in as staff, or to get kids or parents to continue group participation by providing testimonials for the group.
:cool: Not too many kids are staff, in fact many that would like to work there are told to get some life experiences, staying clean, sober, going to college, etc., first. And, testimonials are given freely, voluntarily.
 
9) Critics of the group are vilified, to the point that the group actually brought a (losing) lawsuit to try to silence its critics. Critical kids are vilified as liars and manipulators, critical parents are vilified as dupes of their rotten kids.
9) Wasn't that lawsuit about a group of competitors posting hearsay and downright fabricated statements, and the court said that every poster would have to be sued, not just the competitor? There is no longer a fear of posting untrue statements...
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #98 on: December 23, 2004, 12:08:00 PM »
What, no rebuttals?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2004, 02:36:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-23 09:08:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What, no rebuttals?  "


Hello, I have a life other than spending 24/7 on Fornits.

On the other----my real complaint with all these places is that the licensing requirements are minimal, there is no safeguard process to prevent inappropriate admissions, there is no ability of the teens to communicate freely with the outside world (including extended family) by uncensored letter, and there are no definied rights of the teen that the facility is required to respect and the respect of which are enforced by authority external to the corporate entity running the facility/facilities.

I don't think the safeguards and limits for residential treatment for teens should be exactly like those for adults, but I *do* think they should be a lot *closer* to the rules governing involuntary commitment of adults than they are now.

I think the replies to my concerns about cult-like features of WWASPS were whitewashing a real problem BUT even if they were 100% true and accurate, there *still* needs to be substantial government oversight put in place to ensure that the teens are receiving quality care.

The big problem with the industry is that whether a particular facility is a bad apple or not, any facility could open up its doors tomorrow and get away with being the bad apple facilities described on Fornits, because there is no meaningful, adequate oversight of these facilities.

*One* of the reasons I suspect the WWASPS advocacy response is a whitewash is that I've talked with a therapist from a non-WWASPS program who, though she didn't mention a particular program by name, says she has often had to open up trauma files on students transferred into her facility from facilities in Utah.  That is---her facility has had to treat students for PTSD from the former program after the student transferred in from some program in Utah.  She sees the kids coming out of various other programs, and she did *not* have a high opinion of WWASPS.

Now, I didn't agree with everything *she* said, either.  For one thing, she was entirely too tolerant of an overly-authoritarian approach to rules for my tastes.  But she was, for various reasons, someone I trust to be telling me the truth.

Her account of the condition the kids were in when she got them from places in Utah was a lot more consistent with what the self-identified survivors are saying than with what the WWASPS program advocates are saying.

Regardless--the industry needs oversight.  Not just rules on paper, but actual adequately-funded, diligent inspection and enforcement personnel with the power to notify facilities where they're in violation, order compliance, verify compliance, and, if necessary, write citations for violations that can be (and when appropriate, are) translated into fines and lifted operating licenses.

There's a vast difference between rules on paper, and even rules *with teeth* on paper, and actually budgetting the personnel and other overhead costs to make those teeth start chewing out those who need it.

I've seen bureaucracy work well and I've seen it work badly.  I've been a bureaucrat, and I've been an activist, and I've been a small business owner.

The problem here is that where rules and laws exist, they aren't adequately implemented and aren't being enforced because nobody in government has been specifically tasked with the enforcement responsibilities, has been specifically allocated budgetted funds for enforcement, has been specifically given a rule system with tools (like violation notification forms, compliance order forms, and the power to issue citations for violations) adequate for enforcement, and nobody in government has been saddled with the recordkeeping requirements (detailed inspection reports, reports to be made available to the public, the media, the legislators, etc. under sunshine laws) to ensure the enforcement actually gets done.

The problem with bureaucracy is you can't just pass a law restricting or prohibiting something and have it be effective.  You have to assemble the pieces of a bureaucracy necessary for enforcement, and you have to put those pieces together so that some specific bureacrat with authority over all the bureaucrats down-chain in the enforcement arm *knows* it will be his ass on the line if something bad happens at one of these schools, and it turns out the school was way out of compliance, and it turns out the king bureaucrat wasn't doing his job.

That's the problem with the whole Anson Arnett thing.  There is no specific bureaucrat who was responsible for seeing to it that the staffing rules were followed by the facility, and there is no specific bureacrat whose ass is in a sling for not regularly inspecting the facility to ensure their compliance.

It's no wonder when people call the Utah bureaucrats and complain that the bureaucrats blow them off.  If child welfare pulls a child from his/her home because the kid's being abused, and places the kid in foster care where the kid gets further abused, or dies, or gets lost in the system----there are particular bureaucrats whose butts are in the hot seat over that screw-up.

They don't have any bureaucratic accountability over the facilities.  They can bemoan with the person complaining how lax the rules are----without ever feeling the heat *themselves* for not fixing the problem.

It's the difference between having rules on paper and having rules with teeth.

I know this has seemed like a long digression, but there actually is a point to it.

The biggest reason I'm very, very suspicious of WWASPS is how much work they put into *avoiding* having oversight over them that has actual teeth.

Nobody likes red tape.  But at some point squirming away from the red tape becomes less about, "Oh, you hate red tape, too.  Don't we all." And becomes more about, "Gee, you're awful intent on avoiding fairly normal, expected red tape for this kind of endeavor.  What have you got to hide?"

It *bothers* me that the cattle rancher who grows my steaks has more meaningful, effective oversight  than people who run residential treatment facilities for children.

It *bothers* me that animal shelters for cats and dogs have more meaningful, effective oversight than people who run residential treatment facilities for children.

And it bothers the hell out of me that the people who run residential treatment centers for children aren't right out there in front saying, "You know what, there *should* be standards and their *should* be inspections so our clients can know they're getting the services we promised, delivered in a safe and effective manner."

Nobody *likes* to be inspected, but sometimes you just have to be a grown up and understand why it's necessary.  I don't *like* going through security to get on a plane---but I do it, or I don't fly.

The biggest single thing that makes me believe the survivors, in general, over the program cheerleaders is the unwillingness of the programs to not only *accept* meaningful oversight, but to affirmatively reach out and *insist* on it, while helping craft it to make sure the oversight is done *well*.

Timoclea
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #100 on: December 23, 2004, 03:54:00 PM »
For me, the most cult like aspect of the program is the blind and absolute trust the programmend insist upon. Trust the Program! Being the answer to all concerns. Reminded me of the sheep in Orwell's Animal Farm.
Also, as was mentioned, the vilification of anyone who leaves; or simply has concerns.
The Us and Them attitude - it is Very Cult like.
The Loaded Language; the catch phrases - this is indeed very cult like.
It is a kind of group control. *We* are the Joyious, playful, wonderful, awsome us  (all those great things the Programmed say about themselves at the end of every post on the BBS)
*They*, are Bitchen, Moanen, Whiners; or Chattering Pigs; or some such thing. Not nice things to be.
This is Very Cult like. All cults do this.
The very strongly implanted notion that one *Must* remain part of the group, is extreamly cult like. I feel certain that their are families who keep their kids enrolled simply b/c they can not imagian Not being part of the group - the Program. And if they pulled - they'd be cut off.
Very Cult like.
There are Programmed people who cut off relitives; who divorce their spouces; b/c they are "non- suporting" of the Program - and this is encoruaged by the program. Very, Very cult like.
And notice the effect this has for the Program -
Money, Money, Money - MONEY.
Very cult like.
The whole thing is indeed, Very Cult Like.
And Creepy.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #101 on: December 23, 2004, 04:04:00 PM »
Its interesting how the children in there are held to insanely high 'standards' (as a device to nitpick ANY flaws to torment them) but the orginization holding them to the standards do not hold themselves to them.

A drug is neither moral nor immoral - it's a chemical compound. The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an asshole.
--Frank Zappa

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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #102 on: December 23, 2004, 05:39:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-23 12:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

"For me, the most cult like aspect of the program is the blind and absolute trust the programmend insist upon. Trust the Program! Being the answer to all concerns. Reminded me of the sheep in Orwell's Animal Farm.

(Actually, it's Trust the Process...)



Also, as was mentioned, the vilification of anyone who leaves; or simply has concerns.
The Us and Them attitude - it is Very Cult like.
 
(???  Never got into that us/them thing - that sounds very judgmental to me)


The Loaded Language; the catch phrases - this is indeed very cult like.
It is a kind of group control. *We* are the Joyious, playful, wonderful, awsome us  (all those great things the Programmed say about themselves at the end of every post on the BBS)
"They*, are Bitchen, Moanen, Whiners; or Chattering Pigs; or some such thing. Not nice things to be.

(Again, ??? - We are what? I think what you're referring to is an "I AM" statement - such as I am a happy, confident, loving woman." Never saw a "WE" statement.)


The very strongly implanted notion that one *Must* remain part of the group, is extreamly cult like. I feel certain that their are families who keep their kids enrolled simply b/c they can not imagian Not being part of the group - the Program. And if they pulled - they'd be cut off.

(Not worth a response other than this is total bullshit.)
<

There are Programmed people who cut off relitives; who divorce their spouces; b/c they are "non- suporting" of the Program - and this is encoruaged by the program. Very, Very cult like.

(I agree it would be cult like if it were true.  The "program" encourages nothing like this, did you read this somewhere?)



And notice the effect this has for the Program -

Money, Money, Money - MONEY.

Very cult like.

The whole thing is indeed, Very Cult Like.

And Creepy.


(What I think is creepy is the statements you think are fact.)
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #103 on: December 23, 2004, 05:54:00 PM »
Tinoclea - I read you believe there should be government oversight. I don't know enough about what that would mean.  I see that government oversight lacks the manpower in what it is currently doing as far as prisons, CPS, human services, lots of red tape, lots of ineffective treatments, care, etc.  

Is there government oversight for therapists, psychiatrists, counselors, physicians, etc., in private practice?   I prefer to see a naturopath, and other alternative treatment options. Not someone whose "treatment" is dictated by drug companies.  

Stating this would be your choice doesn't give me much info to respond to since my experience with government oversight hasn't been rosey. I really am interested in how you see this as a working outcome. I'm neither for nor against it at this point.

I agree that there are many programs popping up everywhere and some sort of regulation should be in place.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #104 on: December 23, 2004, 06:21:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-23 14:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Tinoclea - I read you believe there should be government oversight. I don't know enough about what that would mean.  I see that government oversight lacks the manpower in what it is currently doing as far as prisons, CPS, human services, lots of red tape, lots of ineffective treatments, care, etc.  



Is there government oversight for therapists, psychiatrists, counselors, physicians, etc., in private practice?   I prefer to see a naturopath, and other alternative treatment options. Not someone whose "treatment" is dictated by drug companies.  



Stating this would be your choice doesn't give me much info to respond to since my experience with government oversight hasn't been rosey. I really am interested in how you see this as a working outcome. I'm neither for nor against it at this point.



I agree that there are many programs popping up everywhere and some sort of regulation should be in place.  "


Well, I'm still kicking around the pros and cons of the various kinds and forms of regulation that are possible.  If I had a good proposal yet, I already would have taken it to my elected reps.

Psychiatrists are overseen by the medical licensing system, since they're medical doctors, and have to be licensed to practice medicine.

Psychologists are also overseen by a licensing board.

Anyone can call themselves a counselor or a therapist---I could hand out a shingle right now---or you could.  That's why I don't encourage people to go to mental health treatment people who don't have to be licensed---you never know what you're getting.

You can find out your doctor's relationships or lack thereof with the drug companies usually just by asking.  Most doctors are quite open about their treatment philosophies.  You can also tell by looking and seeing if *everything* in your doctor's office has little drug company ads all over it, or just a few things. (I used to be a medical receptionist---my boss got a few little notepads and pens and stuff, and samples, from drug companies, but not enough to compromise his integrity and get him to prescribe differently.)

You want to find out your doctor's relationship to drug companies?  When he/she prescribes something, ask if there's a generic available---or if you can have something that can be prescribed in generic---and see how he/she reacts.  Sometimes the doctor will give valid reasons why this particular drug is better than an older one, or why the generic isn't as suitable.  You're more looking for whether the doctor is uncomfortable with the whole idea of generics---he may get kickbacks for prescribing name-brand.

A doctor who's reasonable about generics, on the other hand, is *highly* unlikely to be in the pocket of drug companies.

Also look for physicians who are "Board Certified"---it makes it much more likely that they'll be competent.

The problem I have with some advocates of alternative medicines is I'm a herbalist---so I'm familiar with some of the side effects and drug interactions various herbs can have, and what things they're good at helping, and what things they're not so good at, and how people can really screw themselves up by presuming that just because an herb is "natural" it won't hurt them if they take it wrong.

I still remember all the yuppies that slagged their livers taking comfrey internally---daily!

One of the reasons I have so much (relative) faith in licensed physicians is because I have so *little* faith in people's do-it-yourself alternative medicine after seeing how badly some people have managed to screw themselves up with a casual attitude to things with major potential side effects that they just shrug off and don't know how to watch for at all.

A person who practices medicine on himself has a fool for a patient.

That is *not* to say that alternative medicine can't be very effective for some things, when done by a *competent* practitioner.  The trick is ensuring that you *are* under the care of a competent practitioner.

On the licensing issue---yeah, it's going to take money.  Right now what I'm kicking around is how to get the most bang for the bucks.

Timoclea
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