Author Topic: Let Freedom Ring  (Read 6681 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Let Freedom Ring
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2004, 11:12:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-08-15 21:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Antigen, Ginger - Amusing comparison.  I have no reason NOT to believe what has been well documented in the History books, etc.  



If I told you that when I was in the 7th grade, I told my mother that a nun had smacked me on the cheek with a ruler because I knew she would transfer me to a public school, would you believe me?  I even made a mark on my cheek and had to keep up the lie for years. I almost believed it myself.  I got what I wanted and ended up only hurting myself. I hurt the nun by telling lies about her but didn't care at the time.  My mother told other mothers and on and on.  It was ugly, but I didn't care because I got away from having to go to church everyday and wearing uniforms, walking in line, not looking out windows during class and raising my hand if I needed to pee only to be told I should have gone before class.



What I said was well documented, but it wasn't true!!  It was true to anyone who believed it.



 


 


  "


Look, I understand your mother was gullible.  Mine was too.  Not always, but frequently.

Every small child lies.  Parents have to get used to telling the difference between when their own kid is lying and when she is telling the truth.

Occasionally, junior high or high school students lie.

It doesn *not* logically follow that every time a teen says something you don't want to hear, even if it's something that improves his/her circumstances, that the teen is lying.

You lied, so you over-assume anyone else who says something similar *must* be lying.

What you said wasn't "true" to anyone who believed it.  It was false, you just allowed that.

That doesn't mean that every time some teen reports abuse and you don't want to hear it that that teen is lying.

What it means is that when children allege abuse, you have to look very carefully at forensic-type evidence and other, similar abuse reports, and what *all* sides have to gain from telling falsehoods, and whether, if the kid *is* lying to get out of a situation, if the situation is one that it would be objectively good to get out of, anyway.

It sounds as though you had some valid reasons to find the school you were in a difficult, potentially hostile learning environment.  Some kids need that extra structure, some kids thrive in that extra structure.  Some don't.

Sometimes kids lie out of desperation because their parents don't listen to an unpalatable truth.

I don't know if that's what you did.  I don't know how your dislike of Catholic school was or wasn't affecting your ability to learn and your lifelong attitude towards learning.

I *do* think you're projecting your guilt and anger at yourself for lying onto other kids---you're taking it out on them that you still hurt because you lied.

Did you ever 'fess up to your mom?  Is she still alive so you could?  If you didn't, you need to.  Even if it's going and talking at a grave or writing a letter and leaving it there.

You should also, if you never apologized to the nun, send a letter to the school, or the diocese, admitting the lie and apologizing for it.

If you've already made it right, okay, sorry for getting in your business--but you did bring it up.

I think all of us remember lies we told as children and adolescents.  I think most of us remember times we told the truth and weren't believed and got punished anyway, too.

As parents and society, we have to do the best we can not to assume kids are lying, and not to assume kids are telling the truth, but to look at the whole situation.

We also owe it to our kids to recognize that sometimes a lie is a cry for help escaping a bad situation where the child doesn't know how to express the truth in a way that will communicate the reality of why that situation is a problem.

Usually with my kid when I suspect that's the case, I keep talking to her and try to get around to an admission of the real reason she's unhappy with something.  I try not to judge that reason.  She may not get her own way--frequently doesn't.

But the funny thing is that usually once I find out what the problem is there is some kind of compromise I can arrange, some kind of change to alleviate all or part of the problem, or help her cope better with something that was hard for her, without her missing out on something I think she really needs to do.

For instance, if I thought it was important for my child to go to Catholic school, but she had come and told me what you said about Catholic school--what you really hated about it, not the nun thing--well, I'd work with it.  I'd work within the uniform rules to get as much comfort or individuality possible--work on *what* you didn't like about it.  Work on maybe your concerns about fitting in with the other kids from public school.  Work on *why* you were hating going to church every day--was it boring? Was it physically unpleasant (cold? hot? hard pew? scary homilies?), work on the bathroom issue---find out if you had some physical issue and needed to go more than normal, find out if their expectations were unreasonable for your age, find out if you needed to plan better and help you do that.

And maybe I wouldn't be able to reach a workable accomodation with you and the school to make it an overall positive learning experience for you.

I mean, if you were just angling not to have to work to learn, that would be one thing, but it sounds like you had some legitimate concerns that could have been worked with.

And if the school wasn't responsive to something *legitimate*---like if the homilies were unduly frightening in a way that wasn't age appropriate, or the uniforms were unreasonably uncomfortable or impractical (or outrageously ugly, even), or they weren't allowing enough bathroom break time for your age and medical condition, and they wouldn't fix it, or you just weren't academically thriving, I might have moved you to public school anyway and worked to try to get some of the benefits I was looking for from Catholic schools other ways.

I think the first part of healthy parenting is learning to listen and being willing to evaluate and address your kid's *legitimate* concerns.

It doesn't mean you address them by letting the kid dictate *how* you remedy legitimate concerns.  The kid can't be the boss.  But you kill your communication with your child when you don't listen, or try to figure out what portion of your child's concerns are legitimate or can be accomodated without harm to the kid or undue hardship to the family or others.

It sounds like you had a problem going to your Mom with legitimate concerns, or she had a problem getting them out of you.

Without that example, maybe it's hard for you to tell the difference between kids dictating terms versus adults listening to kids and searching for legitimate concerns and reasonable ways of dealing with them.

I hear you that not all kids are truthful.  Not all kids are lying, either.  And not all kids that are lying don't *also* have legitimate grievances underneath the lie.

Timoclea
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2004, 12:25:00 PM »
Hi.  I'm the one that posted about the Catholic school...

Yes, I told my mother about the lie.  But not for 20 years.  And, no, the bathroom thing was an excuse to leave the classroom, even if it was true.  I knew to go to the bathroom prior to class instead of chatting with my friends.

It had nothing to do with a hostile environment.  I just wanted to go to the public school to be with a guy I liked in my neighborhood.  

I learned in college the Catholic school was the better of the two schools, but didn't see it at the time.  

I'm not assuming these stories that PURE tells are untrue completely, but I do know that most of the kids will lie to get what they want in the beginning or not tell the whole story.  They got what they wanted, so to fess up before they're 18 can mean another trip back to the Program. There was a reason they were admitted and being honest wasn't one of them.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2004, 12:28:00 PM »
This is one of the best posts I've ever read.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2004, 01:53:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-08-15 21:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

If I told you that when I was in the 7th grade, I told my mother that a nun had smacked me on the cheek with a ruler because I knew she would transfer me to a public school, would you believe me?


Not enough info. Did I (reluctantly playing the role of your mother) go to the same school? Do we attend the same parish? Are we, as a family, familiar the people who work there? The other students and their families? Do I know the nun? Do I have access to talk to all these people about the incident? Does this nun, or others in the same institution, have a history of abusing their students?

Odd that you would choose Catholic school as an example. Is it possible that you're unaware of all the scandals breaking out around the Catholic church covering child abuse going back decades? I was going to find a link to a particular story about a particular orphanage in Ireland which was horrendously abusive and has since been shut down. That would be a better comparison because, like kids entered to some of these toughlove gulags, the orphans had no contact w/ the outside world and no advocate on the outside who would believe them.

Ironically enough, I can't find a link. Not because it's not documented, but because a search on "Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2004, 02:00:00 PM »
...but I do know that most of the kids will lie to get what they want in the beginning or not tell the whole story.

Why single out the teens? Parents and programs lie and manipulate to get what they want as well.


***There was a reason they were admitted and being honest wasn't one of them.

Again, you assume that teens are habitual liars, and that parents/programs are white as the driven snow. That is such an inaccurate perception. Are you trying to manipulate the way people think about teens? Why all the hating and fear of teens?
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Offline spots

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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2004, 02:38:00 PM »
As I have said before, my grandaughter was seldom referred to by her name while in a WWASPS school.  She was either called by her number, or the Spanish word for "Liar".
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2004, 03:30:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-08-16 11:00:00, Deborah wrote:

Again, you assume that teens are habitual liars, and that parents/programs are white as the driven snow. That is such an inaccurate perception. Are you trying to manipulate the way people think about teens? Why all the hating and fear of teens?


Yeah, no kidding! How many times have we heard from some of these ppl, years later when we're all grown up w/ no incentive to lie, that their parents told them they were going along on a business trip or that they were just going to talk to some ppl for an hour or so? Nothing new under the Sun. In my day, the stock lie was "Just sign yourself in for a two week evaluation. If you don't like it, why you can walk right out on your 14th day." I even know a couple of people who were told by staff and their parents that they were court ordered when, in fact, no court order ever existed.

If only there were evil people somewhere, insidiously committing evil
deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060007761/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2004, 06:34:00 PM »
All human beings lie and always have. Its one of the first social skills a young child developes.
How and why a person lies is what makes the difference between a thoughtful person and a malicious psycopath. Or a manipulating teen or parent or program. Let us not forget the program.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2004, 06:35:00 PM »
Basically, ditto.  *People* lie.  Including people running businesses that let them rake in lots of money or give them a certain power over others or other ego stroke.

Most of us aren't demanding that all RTC's everywhere shut down.

Most of us want Sunshine--The Best Disinfectant.

I think if every one of these places had a pay phone, and the kids got an allowance, and could and did use the pay phone to communicate with the outside world freely---be it with former teachers, friends, extended family, parents, or child protective services---that most of us, while we still would have reservations about sending children away from home, would be greatly relieved and a lot less vehement about criticizing these places.

Especially if it were known that the kids were free to bitch about the school as much as they wanted on these calls and they wouldn't be punished for it.

Just a simple pay phone and a certain minimal amount of free time and money to stand in line to use the thing.

The biggest PR black eye the Programs give themselves, that make it *look* like the abuse stories are generally true, is cutting off the kids' communication with the outside world.

-------------

On the Catholic school thing, where the "grievances" were pretty much excuses to get what you wanted---that's one of the tools I use to figure out when my daughter has real grievances and when she's just playing me.  When I go after the grievances and address them, does she feel a certain amount better, or does she get really frustrated like I'm not following her script?  

 :smile:

Mostly, now, she's a pretty truthful kid.

Timoclea
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Offline warriorprincess

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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2004, 06:59:00 PM »
BRAVO!!!
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ets keep trying and move forward

Offline warriorprincess

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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2004, 07:00:00 PM »
bravo to the people who hung in there and saw this lawsuit through.  Awesome good job.   :tup:
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ets keep trying and move forward

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2004, 10:54:00 AM »
I really really dislike hearing pro program parents and staff etc say the kids are liars and manipulators.Some kids may be, many are not.

Not all of the true stories I have heard from kids who have been in the program are on PURE.

Many of the stories are consistent with the mistreatment they recieved and the kids have never met or heard of each other.I think it is time you nay sayer come to the realization that the "lies" may be the truth.

I for one am tired of the real liars.

Lets start with the LIE about the quality of education our kids will receive.The "kind and loving staff"  etc etc etc etc etc.
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Offline Watchaduen

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« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2004, 01:11:00 AM »
I'm not assuming these stories that PURE tells are untrue completely, but I do know that most of the kids will lie to get what they want in the beginning or not tell the whole story.  They got what they wanted, so to fess up before they're 18 can mean another trip back to the Program. There was a reason they were admitted and being honest wasn't one of them.   "
[/quote]

You need to understand that the majority of the kids now telling their stories about these child abuse compounds are home.  I rescued my son from one of these Hell Holes.  I placed him there and yet found too many horror stories about the place via the internet.  I wasn't taking any chances.  I hadn't even talked to my son yet showed back up unannounced a few days later.  My son had been beaten, tortured, starved, deprived of sleep, water and bathroom priviledges.  There was no calling me to whine.  He wasn't allowed phone calls.  He was covered head to toe in bruises.  Most of these victims were rescued or had finally served their sentence.  Now they could finally tell the truth about the treatment they had rec'd.
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heryle - My son was TORTURED and ABUSED at Bethel Boys Academy aka Eagle Point Christian Academy, aka Pine View Academy, Lucedale, MS.

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2004, 07:55:00 PM »
http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/let ... n0408.html

Disclaimer: The opinions, interpretations and recollections of the testimony of parents or other parties expressed in this Letter to the Editor are solely those of the author. By publication of this letter neither Woodbury Reports, Inc., StrugglingTeens.com. nor its employees express any opinions either for or against the parties involved.

Vidi et Scio
I saw and I Know

Karen J Burnett
Shepherdsville, KY
502-955-1219

It is now nearly two years since I've made my first public statements about the WWASP program. It?s been a long couple of years. I have learned a great deal since that first statement and found reasons for hope as well as despair.

I would now like to comment on some highlights of the recent WWASP vs. PURE trial in Salt Lake City; which concluded with Sue Scheff being exonerated on all counts, which included defamation, conspiracy and false advertising.

This is my personal observation; what was for me most profound, or interesting. Others will naturally have differing points of view. I wasn't able to attend the entire trial, but was present all day Wednesday and Thursday. I was sorry to miss the closing arguments and verdict; but I am so glad to have been able to attend the days I did. I might as well say, right up front, for those who don't know me; I was sitting on the defendant's side of the courtroom. For a full account of the trail, you will need to read the transcripts; and I do very much hope you will do so. As I do not yet have a copy of the transcripts, where I quote testimony, I am doing so from memory.

It is such a shame they couldn't have a camera in the court room. The transcripts will be important and powerful reading, but there is no way can they convey the drama and emotion that was there during the testimony. The credibility of the parents who took the stand; and of Amberly Knight/Chirolla, as she explained her situation and knowledge, was beyond dispute and so powerful!

There are many side stories that won't be in the transcripts and I'd like to mention a few of those.

There were two Frenchmen attending, who are working on a documentary. At one point, they took to shadowing WWASP. It struck me as amusing when WWASP's attorney complained in court and said they had the FBI looking into who the Frenchmen were. In my opinion, this trial proved the FBI needs to be looking at WWASP.

At one point during his testimony Ken Kay complained that a woman was distracting him by making gestures. At first, I thought he meant me, as I had at that moment turned to get my note pad from my purse; But it turned out to be the lady sitting next to me. As she was pointed out, Ken Kay asked her why was she making gestures; She stood up and replied, "Because your lying, sir." At that point the judge gave her the boot. Of course the jury was instructed they mustn't pay any heed to what a spectator might say. I found it odd and somewhat amusing, that Mr. Kay brought such attention to the situation and asked such a question in open court.

Later in the trial, there was another situation with a spectator, that I felt was powerful, but which won't make it into the transcripts. Mr. Goodwin was on the stand, testifying to the conditions in WWASP's High Impact. A film that had been shot by the MX police was being shown; and they were going frame by frame, as Mr. Goodwin explained what the jury was seeing. He was saying for example, as he pointed to the screen, Here are the kids marching; here is the 'on the cross' position; here is the 'Indian' position. . . At this point, a young man observing the trial began to sob. He had been crying for awhile, but at this point he began shaking and sobbing. As I happened to know who the young man is, and some of his history with WWASP, I was concerned for him. The judge, very wisely in my opinion, decided to take a break for lunch. In this way, he was able to stop the trial, and exit the jury, with no extra attention drawn to the situation. Even so, as the lawyers were gathering papers and people prepared for the brake, there was this young man sobbing, and on a large screen, the image of a boy, despondent, in the Indian position, in a dog run. There was plenty of time to take all this in before the jury was excused.

As for some of what will be in the transcripts, I think for me, the following would be the highlights.

At one point WWASP hands Amberly Chirolla, a one time director at Dundee Ranch, in Costa Rica, a copy of an email she had sent in reply to Ms. Cary Bock with the apparent intent of impeaching her testimony as to when she 'met' Sue Scheff. They asked her if she remembered writing it, and she said she did; she then asks if they'd like her to read the third paragraph. NO, he snapped - just answer the question - Did you write this? There was a line about how if Carey wanted to pursue claims of abuse against WWASP, she should maybe contact other parents and suggested she get in touch with Sue. WWASP wants to know, dose she remember writing that? Amberly at first seemed puzzled and said she remembered the post, but didn't recall knowing Sue at that time. Then she says, "Oh I do remember! I do! This wasn't a reference to Sue Scheff, but to Sue Flowers!"

On re-direct, the first thing they had her do was read the third paragraph. It had to do with her fear of speaking out, due to WWASP threatening litigation. She was asked to explain that, and was able to explain how they hush people by threatening to sue them; that she had been so threatened. It also enabled them to talk about who Sue Flowers is. Also, Dundee's fall and her letter to PANI came in.

At one point, while WWASP had Sue on the stand, they brought up a recent negative article about a program PURE has referred to. The judge appeared not to be pleased with this move, and allowed many of Sue's documents that had been excluded, back in. Sue had many documents that had been excluded because WWASP wanted to keep the case centered between certain dates. The judge told them if they were going to bring up something that happened two weeks ago, then they were going to have to allow Sue to present what she had up to that point. I was glad of this, as I suspect the documents included many parent's statements, including my own.

I was often struck by WWASP's harassment of the parents who testified. For example, Fred Silvester, WWASP?s attorney, was asking Mr. Goodwin, a father whose son was in WWASP?s High Impact, about a comment made having to do with going to look around the "school". In what appeared to me to be a sharp, sarcastic tone, he asks, "And what did you see?" I guess maybe he thought Mr. Goodwin would say, happy kids soaking up knowledge! Mr. Goodwin responded, "Well, I looked in one door and saw a girl sitting with a three inch strip of duct tape across her mouth." Silvester?s back went stiff, as he drummed his fingers on the podium; Then he waves his hand at Mr. Goodwin and snaps, "You just made that up, didn't you?!"

"NO I did NOT just make that up!" was Mr. Goodwin's adamant reply.

It was powerful.

It was during Mr. Goodwin's testimony about High Impact that I learned some things I had not been aware of before. He explained how the staff used cattle prods to terrify the students and keep them in the stress positions. It was either maintain the position, or get a jolt from the cattle prod. They would strike the ground and create a discharged by the kids' heads, so they would know the prod was hot.

He talked about his son being restrained; really more of a violent take down; with no warning and for no reason; where he hit the ground so hard his bottom teeth went clean threw his lower lip. He was made to lie in the 'on the cross' position while a pool of blood spread from his face around his chin. They did later tell him it was for 'run plans'. He had mentioned to another boy, earlier in the day, how impossible it would be to escape; and that was the reason.

Mr. France's testimony was also deeply moving and beyond any dispute. He gave testimony about the tiny, cold and bare room his son was kept in for nearly 9 months, while in a WWASP program. The room is known as "the Hobbit." He drew a depiction of the room and explained the wood shelves his son had been made to sleep on. He was able to do this with accuracy, as he has a photo of this room. He knows it was the room his son was kept in, b/c his son wrote his name on the edge of the wood shelf, as well as, Let Freedom Ring, on the wall. He talked about the extreme cold in this unheated room during the Montana winters. He explained how an orange his son had tried to stash away, froze over night. He testified to the extensive dental work his son has needed as a result of having his mouth injured while in this WWASP program. In response, WWASP attempted to cast blame on Mr. France's parenting; As if what happens to his son, while in their program, was his fault. This is also what they tried to do to Mr. Goodwin.

I found myself wondering, where is Their Accountability? Why can they not admit these are horrible things that never should have happened, and apologize? Then do whatever it takes to be sure these things cease? Personally, I suspect if they made the needed changes, the program would not be The Program; and so they must continue to deflect and deny and minimize, if they are to continue at all. In other words, in my opinion, the abuse and neglect are an important aspect of WWASP?s method of behavior modification.

Lastly, some of Ken Kay's testimony just floored me. For example, he was shown a page from a WWASP handbook listing what constitutes abuse by staff. One rule was, striking a student; open handed or with a fist, was abuse. He said he wouldn't agree with that. It depended. When pressed, he agreed that according to the WWASP handbook, it was abuse.

Another rule was sexual contact with a student is abuse. He said it depended. Yes, the hand book says that, but it depended. He explained one has to keep in mind the kind of students they have. They are troubled, disturbed teens. That's why they are there, he explained. So, sex might be consensual. Apparently, in Ken Kay?s mind, consent negates abuse. The fact that he is talking about captive, troubled students, consenting to sex with staff, who have control over every aspect of their lives, is of no consequence. It seems to be his view, that yes means yes, no matter the circumstances.

When asked about a specific situation at Jay Kay's Tranquility Bay, where this very thing occurred, he explained that he had gotten a complaint from the father. He had talked with the student who said it was consensual. That was it. He did not talk to the staff member. He made no report. Filed no complaint of any kind. In other words: Nothing was done. He seemed to think this was OK, according to the testimony I heard while I was observing the trial.

Do you?
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2004, 06:10:00 PM »
Quote
At one point WWASP hands Amberly Chirolla, a one time director at Dundee Ranch, in Costa Rica, a copy of an email she had sent in reply to Ms. Cary Bock with the apparent intent of impeaching her testimony as to when she 'met' Sue Scheff. They asked her if she remembered writing it, and she said she did; she then asks if they'd like her to read the third paragraph. NO, he snapped - just answer the question - Did you write this? There was a line about how if Carey wanted to pursue claims of abuse against WWASP, she should maybe contact other parents and suggested she get in touch with Sue. WWASP wants to know, dose she remember writing that? Amberly at first seemed puzzled and said she remembered the post, but didn't recall knowing Sue at that time. Then she says, "Oh I do remember! I do! This wasn't a reference to Sue Scheff, but to Sue Flowers!"


Oh my gosh, that is so funny. :lol:

That had nothing to do with Flowers, that was totally about Scheff.  Amberly is still lying.
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