Author Topic: Interrogation  (Read 2183 times)

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Offline Nihilanthic

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Interrogation
« on: May 23, 2004, 08:07:00 PM »
Thing on the history channel right now about how they interrogate people and get information out of them... psych torture, physical stress, extreme cold, blindfolding, being kidnapped, etc.

The methods they use remind me of a lot of the stories I hear from the institutions/camps. Anyone else heard of this connection? Both make you give up secrets and information... including crimes you never committed
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline darkhunterhope

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Interrogation
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2004, 10:45:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-05-23 17:07:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"Thing on the history channel right now about how they interrogate people and get information out of them... psych torture, physical stress, extreme cold, blindfolding, being kidnapped, etc.



The methods they use remind me of a lot of the stories I hear from the institutions/camps. Anyone else heard of this connection? Both make you give up secrets and information... including crimes you never committed"


yea, it's been used on me while in Provo, only ever worked once though, I was weak in the moment. :idea:
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Offline Antigen

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Interrogation
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2004, 12:30:00 PM »
Yeah, an awful lot of us have noted the similarities. Granted, most of us probably knew that our jailers didn't really want us going toes up on them while POWs know that their jailers really wouldn't consider that a big problem. But, aside from that, it's the same damned thing, right down the line.

There's a great LTE in yesterday's New York Times. Headline was something about the definition of torture and the author was a Harvard Sr. student. He mentions the history of sleep deprivation in extracting confessions going all the way back to the inquisition. In those days, the term was tormentus insomnius(sp?)Excellent insights there. I'll try and remember to type it in here.

Age is mind over matter. If you don't mind...it doesn't matter!
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Interrogation
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2004, 09:49:00 PM »
Its so frustrating to know that if this got out the media would never shut up about it... but apparently nobody can get through their thick heads! argh!

Hopefully the askquetions.org thing will get through to *SOMEONE*. If time drags on and I don't see a story I'll go bug the shit out of O'riley/Matthews/whoever. Problem is I'd need arguing lessons because those kind of shows get ratings.. by arguements. I don't want someone like Bil O'riley walking all over me. Maybe if they drug in some WWASPIE for him to chew out and I could sit there grinning like a retard.

Eh, I'm hardly the most qualified person to do it anyway. Anyone willing to volunteer here? A parent or victim?

Hell, I'd go to oprah or a talkshow but they just like to throw DEFIANT TEENS INTO BOOTCAMP!!1 and let the audience go OOOHHHH and BOOOO and crap like a bunch of chimps hooting and screaming.  :roll: So scratch that.

BTW - you've not been on aim in a while, whats up?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Antigen

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Interrogation
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2004, 12:25:00 PM »
Yeah, I don't think you'd be able to tell that story. Lot of other people can do that. But I, for one, really appreciate your taking an interest and in promoting it. Having not been through it directly yourself, you're bound to have a different perspective on the whole thing than those of us who have. One nut that we, as a group, have not been able to crack has been explaining in terms that others can understand just exactly why this issue is important to all of us.

From my POV, there was my family, pretty good one at that. We were just minding our own business, having our good times and bad when, out of the blue (it seemed) this fucked up cult suplanted our family. It could happen to almost anyone, ya' know? But no one believes that. Everyone sort of assumes that we all deserved what we got or something.

Anyway, here's that LTE I was talking about.

Quote

What's in a word? Torture


By Adam Hoschild

San Francisco
(as printed in the NYT letters section, Sunday, May 23, 2004)

As Orwell pointed out most effectively, governments control language as well as people. Since the Abu Ghraib prison scandal broke, our government, from the highest officials in Washington to Army prison guards in Baghdad, have used every euphemism they can think of to avoid the word that clearly characterizes what some of our soldiers and civilian contractors have been doing: torture.

"What has been charged so far is abuse, which I believe technicalli is different from torture," said Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. "I'm not going to address the 'torture' word." And nobody else seems to want to address it either. Rather, we are told, military police officers at Abu Ghraib were encouraged to treat the prisoners so as to creat "favorable conditions" for interrogations. What does this mean? Give the prisoners English lessons? New clothes" Come on. In any bureaucracy, orders or clearances to do something beyond the law always comes in code. For those in senior positions, deniability is vital.

Some years ago, I heard a man who had narrowly escaped the death squads in El Salvador explain how deniability worked there. "The milirary will call a meeting of commanders," he said. "They will say, 'You know, this man David X is getting to be a threat to us.' Then the commanders, when they have their meetings with their own officers, they'll say, " You know, today we heard of this man who's making a lot of trouble for us.' Then when those officers meet with the sergeants, his name will be floated again. And you can assume David X will soon be dead."

Shortly afterward I interviewed a general who had some of the most notorious Salvadoran death squads under his command. Death squads? Orders for executions? Of course not! He showed me a loose-leaf notebood, carefully listing complaints of human rights abuses with a chart showing how each case had been investigated.

Pentagon officials doubtless have their own versions of that general's loose-leaf notebook to show to human rights investigators. Obviously, no coded orders, suggestions or hints given to the Abu Ghraib prison guards will appear in them. And, no, these were not orders for deaths--but they were for actions similarly beyond the law. What the paper trail will have, however, are the euphemisims for what was actually done.

  • "Sleep management." This apperently benign term--doctors use it in discussing insomnia--disguises a form of torture that has long been popular because it requires no special equipment, and leaves no marks on the body. Widely used in the Middle Ages on suspected witches by inquisitors, it was called the tormentum insomniae. Hundreds of years later, in the interrogation rooms of Stalin's secret police, it was known as the "conveyor belt," because relays of interrogators would question a prisoner, day and night, until he or she signed the desired statement and named enoug co-conspirators.

    After being kept awake for a hundred hours or so, almost anybody will confess to almost anything, from flying through the night sky on a broomstick to being a capitalist spy. Soviet prisoners of the 1930's had to sign each page of their interrogation record. In the files that have been released from archives in recent years, you can sometimes see how a prisoner's signature, clear and firm on the first day, gradually turns into an indecipherable scrawl as the sleepless nights roll by.

  • "Water-boarding." This, as we now know, does not involved water skis, but holding prisoners under water for long enough that they think they are drowning. Again, interrogators favor it because after the prisoner has coughed the water out of his lungs, it leaves no identifiable marks. Reports by human rights groups on countries including Brazil, Ethiopia and El Salvador have noted the prevalence of "simulated drowning" or "near drowning".

  • "Stress positions." What is a sress position? Mike Xego, a former political prisoner in South Africa, once demonstrated one for me. He bent down and clasped his hands in front of him as if they were handcuffed, and then, using a rolled-up newspaper, showed me how apartheid-era police officers would pin his elbows behind his knees with a stick, forcing him into a permanent crouch. "You'd be passed from one hand to another. Kicked. Tipped over," he explained. "The blood stops moving. You scream and scream and scream until there is no voice."

    This begs an obvious question: when the Abu Ghraib detainees were in "stress positions," where they then kicked, tipped over, rolled around like soccer balls? We do not yet know, but chances are that if the guards were told to creat "favorable conditions" for interrocation, the prisoners were not lectured poitely about the benefits of human rights and the rulse of law that the United States is supposedly bringing to Iraq.

    Granted, the torture of prisoners under Saddam Hussein was incomparably more widespread and often ended in death. The same is true of dozens of other regimes around the world. But torture is torture. It permanently scars the victim even when there are no visible marks on the body, and it leaves other scars on the lives of those who perform it on the life of the nation that allowed and encouraged it. Those scars will be with us for a long time.



  • And, I note that I mixed up two entirely different authors. Adam Hoschild is not a Sr. student at Harvard, but the author of "King Leopold's Ghost" and the forthcoming "Burty the Chains," a history of the British antislavery movement. Please note that, due to unusual demands on my time and attention, I had not gotten a good night's sleep in about a week till last night. No coincidence. And, come to think of it, that alone may explain why so many of us, even those of us who didn't have a particularly rough ride, have huge gaps in our memories of what happened in these programs. It's extremely hard to form coherent memories when you're chronically sleep deprived. I often wonder how anyone ever manages to get through medical school and internship.



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