Common threads

[Antigen]

This is from another thread. Thought I'd start a new one, since this part of the discussion is veering far astray of the original topic.

Anon
Would you disagree that your experience in Straight inc colors your point of view?

I would say that it has given me significant insight.

I've been trying to think of an analogy that might fit. I think its kinda like this: Say you have been bitten by a Chow Chow.

...
There are a lot of dangerous programs. A lot of people here have found this out first hand. Even if you know there are some good programs; your going to tend to view them all as dangerous; And especially so, as its so hard to tell from the outside which is which.

Funny you should use that particular analogy. I was attacked by a big dog when I was about 7. Fortunately, he remembered enough of his K-9 training to just pin me down and not rip out my throat. I was only injured a little. I took from that experience the wisdom to pay close attention to what a dog is trying to tell you; whether he wants to be petted or not, if he likes you or not and just what kind of mood he's in. I love dogs. I'm one of those people who can walk up and pet most dogs, even if they usually bite strangers on sight. The trick is in ignoring what the owner says--they're always biased and often a little blind to their belove dog's less appealing personality traits--and just pay close attention to how the dog is acting.

Same holds true for programs.

If you are really so concerned for the siblings, then you should be able to set your own ego aside and let the boy enjoy a visit with his sister separate and apart from you.

All due respect, Karen, but I wouldn't send my 19yo down to ALA w/o a competent and matuer witness to protect her interests. I think you people are quite duplistic.

First you say that ALA is not a lock down facility and that students can and do simply walk away every day, then we find out from Craig's description of an escape that that's not the case at all. So your assurance that it's safe to send a 14yo boy unattended into your facility in in MX is less than reassuring.

Mind you, I don't think you're intentionally lying. What I think is that you are able to hold two contradictory perceptions at the same time w/o a lot of congnative dissonance.

What I asked was, can you do that? Your answer is no. So, as far as I'm concerned, you have proven yourself more interested in stirring up turmoil and strife, than in the welfare of the two kids. I am coming to feel you have no genuine concern for Amanda; but rather are enjoying the opportunity to cause trouble for this family.

Really? Cause I take from that same exchange that Paige is prescient and responsible enough to not send her son unprotected to a place that has already got his sister held incommunicado and apparently against her will (or she wouldn't have tried to run away, now would she?)

As for God having her email address; oh yes, I'm sure He does. He knows how many hairs are on her head and the deepest secrets of her heart. He may well be trying to tell her something - but will she listen?

Or maybe God is trying to tell you something. Will you listen?

That's the trouble w/ trying to decide for others what God wants for them. In this case, it's just a major bummer and possibly a bit of emotional and psyche damage. But kids are resilliant and this one apparently has great family support. But, in some cases, this kind of thinking results in lobbing bomb laiden virgins at strangers. It's really not much of a stretch from here to there.

Would you mind, please, explaining why ALA and other similar programs even have campuses in MX, Jamaica, Costa Rica and such places? Isn't it expensive to keep flying and calling internationally? Aside from the differences in laws and enforcement standards, what is the benefit to sending kids to Mexico?

At Amanda's age, I lost my brother who was her brothers age. That was a very long time ago, and I still miss him. He would have been 42 this week if he hadn't been killed. I often wonder how different my life might be, had he not died; What kind of wife might he have married; would I have nieces and nephews? Would we still be close, or seeing each other once a year? Any way, For this reason, I think I am more sensitive to sibling issues than average; and the present situation does distress me.

I'm sorry to hear that, but it's not the same situation at all. Your brother died. No one had the power to bring him back to you. Amanda's brother is very much alive and so is the rest of the extended family. It's not God keeping them appart. It's ALA.

"Karen, Karen, Karen! Are you trolling for a new intake? I may be mistaken, but I think this one's just a little to smart for that schtick."

No Ginger - hadn't entered my mind. I am frankly surprised you would so accuse me.

I just asked, that's all. Experience tells me that this is a definite possability and it would be foolish NOT to suspect this as a possible motive.

Just out of curiosity, how frequently does ALA enroll siblings from the same families?

To make certain that crime does not pay, the government should take it
over and try to run it

--G. Norman Collie

[Anonymous]

On 2004-04-10 12:01:00, Antigen wrote:

Amanda's brother is very much alive and so is the rest of the extended family. It's not God keeping them appart. It's ALA.

No Ginger, it is not ALA keeping them apart.  It is the unwise choices of the girl that landed her there in the first place.  It is her continued unwise choices that make it necessary for her to stay there.  Ginger, you have not been there.  You have not seen with your own eyes.  You have not spoken to the staff face to face.  You have not witnessed the girls interaction one with another.  They are in a safe place.  They are well cared for.  The home they are living in is beautiful.  Your personal life experiences with your daughter are not the same as the experiences for this girl and for her mother.  

While it is unfortunate that this girl is down there, it is more unfortunate that there are so many people who find it necessary to condemn the parents.  Just as you did what you felt was best with your daughter, they are doing what they feel is best for their daughter.  

Fortunately, however, they are accountable to God.  Not to you.  Not to Paige.  Not to any of the others who have jumped on the bandwagon.  God sees all and will righteously judge accordingly.  Have a blessed day Ginger.

[Cayo Hueso]

It's real easy to say they're only accountable to God.  No one actually speaks to God to be able to dispute what you say.  How do YOU know what God wants for them.  Maybe God wants Paige to step in and do something.

Maybe Ginger and I haven't had experience with that particular child, but we've both raised multiple children so that does give us some perspective that you and others do not have.  We've been there as teens AND as parents.  I've said plenty of times on here before that I went through hell with my oldest and drugs.  She scared the shit out of me on a daily basis.  BUT......because of what I went through I knew that sending her away was not the answer.  Even if the place is not physically abusive.  The psychological damage is what's worse to me anyway.  Part of what still affects me to this day is that after being in that program ANY mistake that I made was a complete and total crisis.  It takes away the ability of the child to make mistakes and truly[/b] learn from them.  To force[/b] change on someone, especially a child, doesn't work anyway.  You're forcing your[/b] will on them.  Oh, that's right.....most of you people have a direct line to God and know that what YOU want for her is HIS will. :roll:  :roll:

Most people, when confronted with the natural consequences of their actions, change the behaviors that are causing them problems.  Some people take longer than others to figure things out.  A small percentage never do...it's sad, but a fact.  If you take away the ability of the child to experience those natural consequences, how do you expect them to learn?  By sitting in a building all day talking about how bad their lives were and how the Almighty can change them??  No, it's called life experience.  Everyone deserves a chance at that....even if it gets frightening for the parents.  ONe of the hardest things I had to do was to let go of my daughter when she was going through her difficulties.  I wanted so badly to change her.  I knew where she was heading was a very bad place, but I also knew that if I forced[/b] her to change before she had learned whatever it was that she was supposed to that she would end up spending much more time than necessary to learn those lessons.  Yes, there was a chance that she wouldn't pull herself out of it, but in my opinion, much more of a chance that she'd crash and burn at a later date if I had sent her somewhere and interrupted the learning process.

Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean.
-- John Muir

[Anonymous]

Hmmmm, sounds to me the only one who has been condemmed is the child, who because she is not meeting her parents demands and expectations, must now have an extended "come to Jesus meetin"
south of the border.  

 :silly:

[Anonymous]

Ginger, maybe you should rename this topic with a bit more info on what it is about.  Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

//All due respect, Karen, but I wouldn't send my 19yo down to ALA w/o a competent and matuer witness to protect her interests//

OK, I agree. I wouldn't either. I had no such thing in mind. Remember, I'm only sort of tossing ideas and possibilities around - like a think session if you will. My thoughts being *maybe* there is a neutral family member or trusted family friend the boy could travel with. I think I did mention a neutral third party. .

//I would say that it has given me significant insight. //
Yes, I agree with this too. It has. Your insight is at times remarkable; But this doesn't mean you are never mistaken in your judgment.

//First you say that ALA is not a lock down facility and that students can and do simply walk away every day, then we find out from Craig's description of an escape that that's not the case at all. So your assurance that it's safe to send a 14yo boy unattended into your facility in in MX is less than reassuring. //
Now I never said anything about every day. I can only recall two run away events in the past year. I haven't responded to your questios about the search party and all related, b/c I am not there and so can only guess. I am under the impression my speculating wouldn't satisfy. But I will if you like. . .Let me know.
And again, about the boy - I never said or ment he should travel alone.

//(or she wouldn't have tried to run away, now would she?) //
She might. Lots of kids run away for the 'fun' thats in it intending on returning when it suites them. I'm not saying this IS the case with Amanda as I don't know. It is possible tho.

//Or maybe God is trying to tell you something. Will you listen? //
I do try Ginger. I often wish He'd speak up a bit louder as I do sometimes misunderstand Him; But maybe if He did, it would remove the all important aspect of free will. How 'bout you?

//That's the trouble w/ trying to decide for others what God wants for them. //
Sure, I agree. I will sometimes point out that maybe this circumstance ot that event might be God trying to get threw; but I don't tell people "God's will for you is. . ."
That would be a very dangerous thing to do and smacks of false prophecy.
I do advise those interested to seek God's will; for I do believe the center of God's will is the only safe place to be. True, we all waver out of it from time to time, as we stagger threw life. It is to our benefit and well being if we get back in it ASAP soon as we discover our mistake.
I assume Amanda's parents feel they are following God's direction; and I would not second guess them. If they've made a mistake, I trust God will somehow let them know.
Speaking of Trusting God - let me recommend a book for anyone interested in the subject: "Trusting God". Its a humorous story about a Political science professor learning to walk by Faith. He left a well paying job to found Lamb and Lion Ministries; on April fools day; which he was told was most appropriate by may people. It is a funny book but more than any other I've read, illistraights the principles of Trust and Faith in God.

//Would you mind, please, explaining why ALA and other similar programs even have campuses in MX, Jamaica, Costa Rica and such places? Isn't it expensive to keep flying and calling internationally? Aside from the differences in laws and enforcement standards, what is the benefit to sending kids to Mexico? //

I do a little doubt I'm the best one to try and explain this Ginger. I can give you my impression, but thats all it is.
What makes me uncomfortable with this situation is that I feel often times it is for no more reason than the lack of oversight and supervision and ease with which the local officials can be bought; as well as the protection that can be gained from a community with a depressed economy when your putting green back into it. All this makes me very warry now that I understand it.
This having been said; I do think there can be good and legitimate reasons for a program in a forgine local. I do think it can be very good for people to spend time in a very different place from their personal norm. It can be socially enriching and personally gratifying in many ways. It does enable people to set aside the distractions of everyday life and actually think about what they want and how to get it. Nathan really enjoyed it; but for him, Utah was quite different enough to have these same benefits. He was enthralled (and so was I when we visited) And he loved Ajijic.
As you know, I had first sent him to Dundee. And you know how that turned out. But I don't see the local in this case as one of the problems. That Program is the same where ever it is; and had he been in North Carolina it would've been the same. I think in the case of Dundee, the Local was actually plus for several reasons - so its not as if a forgine local, in and of itself, is a bad thing in my view.
I think one way to gage weather or not the program is a forgine local for good rather than bad reasons, might be how often and how soon can the students actually get out and experience the place?
So, thats my take on it.

//I'm sorry to hear that, but it's not the same situation at all. //
Oh, I know! I didn't mean to be comparing the two situations - only trying to express why I personally am sensitive to sibling issues.

//It's not God keeping them appart. It's ALA.//
I agree it isn't God, Ginger; but I don't think it is ALA either. I would say its more the family rift that is causing this; and I fear Paige's response is only aggravating the situation.  This is how I have come to see it.
IMO, even *if* everything Paige says is true; her response is only going to make the situation worse. I hope I'm wrong.

//Just out of curiosity, how frequently does ALA enroll siblings from the same families? //

As far as I know, never. I can't think of a single instance. But Ginger, if there were siblings enrolled together, it would automatically be a bad thing.

I think that's everything. I need to go cook.

I hope ya'll have a nice Easter, weather or not you are celebrating magic bunnies or a risen savior.
God's Peace -
KZ

[Anonymous]

I usually ignore my typos, but thought I ought to correct this one -
As far as I know, never. I can't think of a single instance. But Ginger, if there were siblings enrolled together, it wouldN'T automatically be a bad thing.


Also, you asked about cost. The phone calls aren't so bad. I have good rates and even tho I called MX a lot, my bill was never overly high - maybe in the thirty dollar range. I think most families buy the prepaid cards.
Flights were a different story. For us it is pretty expensive - but it wouldn't be nearly so bad if you live west of the Mississippi; and this is a relitive thing anyway. Expensive for me is pockect change for others.

Cayo - you have brought the need for natural consequences - I'd like to get into that later.

[Anonymous]

Oh for pete's sake Karen.  There is a HUGE difference between exposing kids to a different culture vis a vis an educational/enrichment type program that accepts kids only on a voluntary basis and treats them like "students" not damaged or defective people.

Second, for the money parents spend on locking their kids up in some foreigh-based behavior modification program, the ENTIRE family could take an extended vacation in South or Central America, the Carribean, Europe, etc.  

Separating a child from their family under the guise of helping families heal is utter and complete poppycock.  

I have zero respect for parents who ship their kids off to some outpost because they have lost control of their child's attitude and behavior.
What a disgrace.  

 :roll:

[Anonymous]

On 2004-04-11 07:46:00, cayohueso wrote:

Maybe Ginger and I haven't had experience with that particular child, but we've both raised multiple children so that does give us some perspective that you and others do not have.  We've been there as teens AND as parents.  I've said plenty of times on here before that I went through hell with my oldest and drugs.  She scared the shit out of me on a daily basis.  BUT......because of what I went through I knew that sending her away was not the answer.

Congratulations!  You were able to deal with your wayward teens in a manner that worked for you.  However, the girl is not your child and the mom is not you.  What you did in your situation was for you and your child.  

Different people deal with things differently.  People have a tendancy to judge others by themselves.  As such, it is hard to accept when other parents do things that for us would be, well, in our own judgement, just wrong.

However, not being able to know the heart of the parent, and not having walked in her shoes, we cannot possibly know what life has been like in their home.

Again, congratulations on your abililty to deal with your wayward teen in a manner that worked for you.  I am sure you have become stronger for it, and as such, when you do run across a situation like yours, you will have the experience to help another parent.

Have a blessed day.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-04-11 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

Separating a child from their family under the guise of helping families heal is utter and complete poppycock.  



I have zero respect for parents who ship their kids off to some outpost because they have lost control of their child's attitude and behavior.

What a disgrace.  

Fortunately, God is the judge of hurting parents who feel desparate, not you.

[Anonymous]

Karen wrote this: I assume Amanda's parents feel they are following God's direction; and I would not second guess them. If they've made a mistake, I trust God will somehow let them know.

Anon writes this: Maybe God has, by sending Paige.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-04-11 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Oh for pete's sake Karen.  There is a HUGE difference between exposing kids to a different culture vis a vis an educational/enrichment type program that accepts kids only on a voluntary basis and treats them like "students" not damaged or defective people.



Second, for the money parents spend on locking their kids up in some foreigh-based behavior modification program, the ENTIRE family could take an extended vacation in South or Central America, the Carribean, Europe, etc.  



Separating a child from their family under the guise of helping families heal is utter and complete poppycock.  



I have zero respect for parents who ship their kids off to some outpost because they have lost control of their child's attitude and behavior.

What a disgrace.  



 ::bigsmilebounce::  ::birthday::  ::drummer::  ::rocker::

[spots]

I have zero respect for parents who ship their kids off to some outpost because they have lost control of their child's attitude and behavior.


What a disgrace.  





 :roll:


"

With sadness (because I like Karen), I realize that she must be included in the "zero respect" category also.  Not only did she try two, as in "the first one [Dundee] didn't work out, so I'll try this other one which must be good because all they talk about is God", but she now recruits for this program and hopes her son, Nate, will someday grow to run a program of his own.  

What happened to parenting, and loving your child while trying your best to help him... without the stigma of being "second-class goods", to be shipped off to others because his own family perceives him as around the bend, completely unmangeable [read "won't agree with MY take on life"] beyond help by those who should love him?

[Cayo Hueso]

With sadness (because I like Karen), I realize that she must be included in the "zero respect" category also.  Not only did she try two, as in "the first one [Dundee] didn't work out, so I'll try this other one which must be good because all they talk about is God", but she now recruits for this program and hopes her son, Nate, will someday grow to run a program of his own.  

Really???  How sad!!

Don't sweat the

Petty Things

Don't pet the

Sweaty Things

Water what you want to grow.
--Curiosity

[Anonymous]

Let there be no mistake about it, straightening out wayward teens according to the gospel, is behavior modification.  

Should teens have the right to decide for themselves if they want to be "born again" (bold)before being committed by their parents into a faith-based school or program? Absolutely.  It's called freedom of religion.

Guess you know what I think of parents who shove christianity down the throats of their children all the while proclaiming what "good, responsible parents" they are.

 ::puke::