Summit Prep. School in Montana

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-29 12:29:00, Lost Dog wrote:

"Antigen,



I did not leave my name for the same reasons no one else does, trying to move on with life, law suits and CEDU is scary!!!

Fair enough, but the other guy seems to be trying to promote this other program. I find it odd that anyone would make an anonymous appeal to anyone to send them our children.

You are ex CEDU as well, so I am suprised that you would even ask me that question.

No, I was in another Synanon based program. But it's all the same. As it happens, I am under civil suit.

The therapist at Summit is someone I trust because we fought the good fight against the abuse and the shame that many of the staff placed on the students.  (I am withhold this persons name out of respect to their privatecy).

I wouldn't dream of asking you to out someone else against their wishes.

I am currently trying to discover what programs out there work and are healthy.  As a drug counselor I see tons of students that need help, but the public system tends to suffle them off instead of helping them (mainly do to lack of funding and programs).  As we know the private system is filled with crouption and abuse.  So my question to Antigen, as someone who is familiar with the industry, In your opinion what programs do you know about are healthy and productive in helping kids?

-Lost Dog

And (copied from earlier in the post)

The therapist at Summit is someone I trust because we fought the good fight against the abuse and the shame that many of the staff placed on the students. (I am withhold this persons name out of respect to their privatecy).

and

I thought, along with many of the therapist (that have now left), that we could make a difference and change the system into a healthy  supportive enviroment.  I was wrong and it cost me dearly.

Well, you know what they say about good intentions. I sincerely assume good intentions from anyone and everyone unless I find evidence that demands another conclusion. It's been my experience that most people, regardless of how others might view their behavior, actually do believe that they're the good guys doing worthy and good things for good reasons.

But that doesn't mean they actually accomplish good and worthy things. Hence the aphorism "The road to hell is paved w/ good intentions."

I don't believe there is such a thing as good, effective and safe drug treatment. The reason why I don't believe it is because I have seen no evidence ever that shows any significant benefit to treated populations over untreated populations. Substance abuse is volitional. Like all other activities that can sometimes be more trouble than they're worth, most people manage to either quit or moderate problematic drug use, w/ or w/o any professional help. Actually, there is evidence to suggest that those of us who received "help" against our will have not done as well as those who were not so "lucky".

So I think it's patently wrong to force drug treatment or other psych treatment on anyone against their will.  

That's why I wanted to know from the Summit employee whether or not they take involuntary placements. He/she says that they do. Now I want to know why any kid wouldn't want to go to Summit. Based on what they say about themselves in their website, I don't see why anyone would have to be shackled and dragged out of bed to go there. Is there some reason not stated in the website why a kid might resist going?

Finally, just because I don't have any faith in formal treatment doesn't mean it should be outlawed. People do all kinds of things that I don't understand or find to be worthwhile. But it must be voluntary! Outward Bound, I hear, is a wonderful program. Kids go and do it voluntarily, but they go into it knowing the risk of injury and fully informed of every aspect of the program.

What often happens in programs that identify as part of the Troubled Parent industry is that they get the kid out there, either by force or fraud, and then start harassing them emotionally while they've got them captive.

This, I believe, is ethically indefensible. And I want to know if that's what's going on at Summit.

To put it in the simplest and, hopefully, familiar terms, any therapeutic relationship (professional or not) must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. If there's coercion involved, it can't be therapeutic.

Under the benign influence of our republican institutions, and the maintenance of peace with all nations whilst so many of them were engaged in bloody and wasteful wars, the fruits of a just policy were enjoyed in an unrivaled growth of our faculties and resources.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/foundingdocs/inaugural/madison1stinaug.html' target='_new'>James Madison

[Antigen]

Bump!
Any response?

The most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of
knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness.

--Thomas Jefferson

[Lost Dog]

I agree that you can never force treatment of any sort, whether treating drug or exstream ice cream addiction.

I do believe that you can offer a person options...  "Adult have options, childern have one (to cry, kick and scream)"  Now they may not like their options (that can get into dealing with the ego) but exploring healthy options can led to a way out of what ever "trauma" a person has entered.

I have faith in summit school because I have faith in this counselor.  He/She helped tons of students (and even helped me after I got out of CEDU).

I really hope that there are more healthy schools out there for the kids that need something else. You may have known students that truly needed to get away from their parents and reestablish their value systems.  I had one student this year that needed a residential program (home life was really bad!!!!!), but I could not in good faith just send her anywhere.  The state system is not much better (no funding).  I looked around for programs but I did not come across a lot I trusted or would take her (medicaid).  In the end I gave her the choice and she refused.  So I left her with options, for when she hits bottom. That was the best I could do.

I did find one place in Wrangell, Alaska that I checked out and liked.  It is a wilderness program call "Crossings".  The owner seemed to have it together, therapists were highly skilled and best of all they worked with medicaid!  Again this is only another opinion...

I do believe in programs like outward bound. Most of them are great and kids choose to go there!!  They teach life skills, build self esteam, corperation and led kids to find hope within. This reminds me of something I read somewhere?!?! (brain no work good on friday) About some parents that as their daughter approched her 13th birthday, they set up challenges for her that would teach her how to survive her teenage years.  Th whole family got involved teaching her everything from skydiving to cooking to changing the car oil.  Each task built self esteam, established support systems with family members, taught her decision making and most important told her she is loved. I thought is is great and what so many students I have seen need or something like this to show them they are loved!! Unfortunitly most family systems are about as healthy as eating McD on a daily basis...

I have switched gears in my profession, instead of treatment I am working in prevention.  This was a radical change for me.  I had to let go of everything I knew and relearn how to help.  I have found that even my job title "Drug and Alcohol Prevention Counselor" is BS.  I spend more time teaching responsible decision making and educate students on the pontential dangers of durgs, drinking, ice cream, etc.  But as you know we best learn after we fall, I can only hope that throught healthy mentoring, I am providing these students with the tools they need to learn from their mistakes.

I do see a direct link between many social problems and lack of public education funding.  I have a wonderful opportunity to work with schools throughtout washington and see the same problems in every school.  I would love to say that all parents are great people that love their kids, but that would be a big fat lie!  So as the job of raising kids should fall on the parental system it unfortunately shifts into the school's shoulders.  Take drug prevention: Ideally if you educate students and provide healthy role models most will avoid drug addiction, thus reducing the demand for drugs in our country. Look at the change in teen smoking for emample.  There is currently tons of money in smoking education, which has dropped the smoking rates way down.  Here is the catch, there is no (or very little) money in drug education!!!  Just like there is not money for after school programs, art, dance, drama, alteritive sports, outdoor education, etc.  The best anti-drug (or way to steem bad choices) is to "Follow Your Bliss".  Give studets other outlets insteam of TV, video games, drugs, sex, etc. Sure some of them will experiment, but the anti-drug will win everytime.  

So for many kids homelife sucks, there is nothing to do after school, working at the mall puts teens in direct contact with more drugs, gilfriend is pregnat, TV is only trying to sell you something and most of the good mentors are burned out or dead.  And best of all the same politision that cut school funding is preaching about bad teachers, drugs, MTV, janets boob...

Does this feel kind of like a hampster wheel?

So it is friday and I am ranting...  Yes, I spend the rest of my little time looking for grants.  Unfortuneatly I can find thousands for the Oprea but nothing for our half built skatepark (our idea of an anti-drug location safely behind the police station).

I will be less narotic tomorrow after I go play outside...

-Lost Dog

Clancy's Law: The perceived role of governments is to deploy ever increasing resources to the attainment of  ever diminishing end results.
--Home Page

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-30 21:25:00, Lost Dog wrote:

 I would love to say that all parents are great people that love their kids, but that would be a big fat lie! So as the job of raising kids should fall on the parental system it unfortunately shifts into the school's shoulders.

That's a default situation that exists because compulsory public schooling exists. W/o that contrived institution, children who's parents suck generally gravitate to other adults of their own choosing who give them what they need.
http://www.gregbrown.org/gbfurth1.html#ifyoudon

As it turns out, the schools make even worse parents than absent parents do. If the parents model poor behavior as regards drugs, the schools don't setp in and teach good behavior. They send in a DARE cop and encourage the kids to move from an ambivalent attitude toward their natural kin (and strongest tie to their whole heritage) to actively combative and to snitch on them.

"First, do no harm" is a good rule of thumb for all vocations.

Take drug prevention: Ideally if you educate students and provide healthy role models most will avoid drug addiction, thus reducing the demand for drugs in our country. Look at the change in teen smoking for emample. There is currently tons of money in smoking education, which has dropped the smoking rates way down. Here is the catch, there is no (or very little) money in drug education!!!

No, it works the other way around. I'm sure of it. When I was a little kid, our culture designated smoking as an adult activity. Almost all adults smoked. Housewives smoked in the grocery store, there were even ashtrays in the stores. Restaurants, if they had a non smoking section at all, had two tables next to the kitchen doors. As is always the case, changes in culture lead changes in spending allocation. So now we have all this anti-smoking propaganda (and I don't mean that in a bad way) and it seems to work because it's supported by the rest of society.

If you really want to make a difference in the lives of children, don't cloister yourself in the "helping" professions. Instead, throw yourself into some mundane but necessary aspect of living and be a mentor to whoever is drawn to you.

I had a lousey, neglectful homelife as a kid. My dad was very cool, but he was working a couple of jobs. Mom was either bitching, smoking and drinking or she was ignoring us. So I'd hang around when Dad was working on some project, otherwise I was "out playing", hovering around someone else who could show me how to grow a garden, build an addition on their house or some other useful thing. I was fine w/ it! No problem at all, till some jackass convinced my mother that she could receive redemption and become a "Good Mother" by forcing us to let him help us all.

Here is the catch, there is no (or very little) money in drug education!!!

That's the catch w/ all of the "helping" professions! There is no ecconomic profit in trying to help people who are so dysfunctional that they can't pay you for the help. That's why Socrates went balistic over the suggestion that he would charge for teaching.

Fortunately, like the drive for sex, bliss and food, teaching and mentoring come as naturally to humans as to other social animals. Who do you know who's not flattered and warmed by some young person asking advice or showing admiration in some way? What kid have you ever met who doesn't hit the ground wired to emulate everything around them and to master every skill they can as fast as they can?

Ever read John Taylor Gatto? My kids gave me a copy of "Anonymity Anonymous
It is wrong to leave a stumbling block in the road once it has tripped you.

[Lost Dog]

I love greg brown, great song...thanks!!

I did not mean to ranble as much about as I did, but yesterday sucked. so to clearify some what...

You are right schools make bad parents, but teachers and counselors can make great role models. I can not speak for every school in the country but here I am surprised at how skilled the teachers are and how positivitly they affect their sudents lives.  I have even seen teachers go as far as to help get students off the streets and back in school when the parents could have cared less.

As for Dare it is defunct.  It had some good aspects to the program such as having a police officer assigned to work with each school district.  This helped build relationships and dispell the student's myths that cops are all bad.  My school district is at a great lost without our police contact, he helped a ton of kids. Now don't misunderstand me, the program as a whole had some flaws that allowed for abuses of power.

About drug prevention:
Antigen wrote "No, it works the other way around. I'm sure of it. When I was a little kid, our culture designated smoking as an adult activity. Almost all adults smoked. Housewives smoked in the grocery store, there were even ashtrays in the stores. Restaurants, if they had a non smoking section at all, had two tables next to the kitchen doors. As is always the case, changes in culture lead changes in spending allocation. So now we have all this anti-smoking propaganda (and I don't mean that in a bad way) and it seems to work because it's supported by the rest of society."  (how do you quote so it shows up in the box)

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I am confused, Are you saying that drug rates go up when you provide drug prevention??  It is proven that drug and tobacco education do help reduce the addiction rates.  When there is no education programs or support system (counselors), addiction  goes up.  In fact your example seems agree with my point, that the current culture has created funding for smoking prevention that has lowered the rates of underage smokers. In the 80's it was the anti-drug (remember Nancy Regan)messages that recieved the funding.  Now it was a pretty lame message but it did work as drugs use like crack droped signifiantly after drug education in schools recieved funding.  

I never knew that about Socrates, that is great!  You are right, our society seems to look for the short term profit, where they should instead be looking at the long term value.  

I am familiar with Gatto and feel that the solution to the stagnate school system is funding.  There are tons of grants we write each year to provide alternative and outdoor education, art, drama and many other program but all these things are shot down due to lack of money.  Way too much time and money is spent on testing.  The current administration's plan "to leave no child behind" in reality leaves most of them on the street corner as the bus speeds on by.  

Education is clearly not a priority in this country. As it would cost only 1 billion to repair all the schools in the nation and bring them up to date, but instead we spend 87 billion on Iraq and can not afford to beter our own schools?  Is something wrong here?

-lost dog
<[ This Message was edited by: Lost Dog on 2004-05-01 18:11 ][ This Message was edited by: Lost Dog on 2004-05-02 09:16 ]

[Lost Dog]

Antigen

Instead of continuing are rant about the ills of public and private schools... I would love to know what people out there feel works!!  I am current in a grant writing phase and I am searching for current examples of successful school programs (low drop out rates, enhanced creativity, low drug abuses, etc).

Let talk about how we start solving the problems we face in education.  What programs work?

-Lost Dog[ This Message was edited by: Lost Dog on 2004-05-02 09:26 ]

[Antigen]

I think the #1, most effective way to improve schools accross the board would be to make them voluntary and locally funded and controled.

I don't think you and I are going to agree on very much in this area.

Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0931580587/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Peter McWilliams

[Anonymous]

Why doesn't Jesus help these children who are being tortured in his name?

[cherish wisdom]

Jesus can only help them through us! I think he is helping them everytime someone tries to do something to prevent this.

A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
-- William James

[Anonymous]

I believe knowledge and this information age could be useful to anyone wishing to get off the street. But I also belive it is up to the individual to make their choices. Nobody can make a drug addict quit. But If they only knew before-hand what they were getting into they would avoid it like the plague. Education is the answer but who are they going to believe when their parents or peers are all on this drug kick?  How can you correct a problem that will only go on later on in life when this is no mentor of experience and firsthand knowledge of drug-addiction.Smarts are learned on one own experience, but how do you get these kids to listen to wisdom when there is none accessable to them. I'm talking about learning from other's mistakes. That's what th kids need instead of all this so called culture-shock and ge used to it crap. That comes later. I may be wong but if people had respect for our leaders and our leaders had more wisdom mentors the kids who are troubled would get sound advice and not some type of peer group that wastes away at the minds for almost half their lives. It makes them give up when nobody is true to them.