AA Abundant Life Academy

[Antigen]

On 2004-03-30 22:24:00, CraigRogers wrote:

They are not given all this freedom all at once, but as they prove themselves able they are given more opportunities to strive for great heights then they have ever had.

... and then ...

Additionally, we dont crame religion down the student's throat, we give them a chance to serve others in the spirit of Christianity and explore their Chrisitian heritage.

Right. Sounds very familiar. You don't cram anything down anyone's throat, you just take away needed privacy and autonomy till they break down and accept your philosophy.

What you probably don't know is that all the things you've just said about ALA could be said of Straight, Inc., LIFE, SAFE and even The Seed. Every last one was billed as a kinder, gentler approach to some other program. There were no locks on the doors at Straight. Just clients standing guard. But we were not to describe it that way, no! The weren't "guards", they were just there to set an example and to do the chore of logging who came in and out of the doors and for what reasons. Sometimes the host homes were locked, other times (under scrutiny from CYF or fire marshals) they were not and they'd just block the doors w/ beds or something.

The bottom line is still the same. The alternative to bad, forced thought reform programs good parenting. That is what most of us have done. We haven't magically had perfect children. We just love them anyway. Having had the memory of difficult adolescance handled badly seered into our minds, we're mostly just grateful to have the kids we have. And we have faith in them to sort things out. We give them all the help that they'll voluntarily accept.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense

--Buddha

[Antigen]

On 2004-03-31 10:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Craig, you say you "compel" runaways to return.



Compel means "force."



So that answers the question.  Kids placed in your program are *NOT* free to leave.



You also say "most" come of their own free will.  That leaves the possibility that some don't.



You also say that ALA "doesn't hire" escorts.  What you *don't* say is whether you admit kids whose *parents* hired escorts to get them there.



Bad Program, No Biscuit."

Note also that old familiar circumspection. According to Virgil Newton, I, myself, signed myself into Straight voluntarily. So did all the other kids. But it wasn't like that at all. First, they held me for hours, brow beating and demanding confessions. Then they lied and said I could sign in for two weeks for evaluation. I didn't buy that cause I'd had 10 years experience w/ The Seed and knew it was a lie. But when they said they could get a court order to compel me to stay for two years, well I figured I could graduate or split in less time than that AND not have any papers on me w/ the state.

So, given the choice between criminal status and a mandatory  two year sentence, I "voluntarily" signed myself in. But it wasn't voluntary at all, it was coerced. In fact, had I known that I only had to hold out for 72 hours under Florida law, I would never have signed at all.

But this is far from demonstrating that the authorities must interpose to suppress these vices by commercial prohibitions, nor is it by any means evident that such intervention on the part of the government is really capable of suppressing them or that, even if this end could be attained, it might not therewith open up a Pandora's box of other dangers, no less mischievous than alcoholism and morphinism.
http://www.mises.org/liberal/ch1sec11.asp' target='_new'>Ludwig Von Mises

[Anonymous]

Ginger---I wonder how many of these kids it would be possible to protect from the programs just by informing them of their rights in various US states?

And while I know you're not a fan of laws as a solution, I do think it would be a partial solution to make it illegal to remove any US citizen over the age of twelve, whose parents live in the US, from the US without the kid's consent.

If the law was propagated to the airlines and border agents, and the kids were informed of their rights---kids being pretty computer savvy---most kids could be protected from the places in Jamaica and Costa Rica and such--you know, the places you generally have to fly to instead of drive to--if not from the places in Mexico.

[CraigRogers]

Get over it Ginger... we all know that you and Bill are the "unregistered user".  You are not fooling anyone.  They only one that can post from the administrator position is the admin, and that is you.  Get some integrity!

[Anonymous]

yeah ginger, get some integrity like Word...er, I am Craig!

[Antigen]

On 2004-03-31 13:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ginger---I wonder how many of these kids it would be possible to protect from the programs just by informing them of their rights in various US states?



And while I know you're not a fan of laws as a solution, I do think it would be a partial solution to make it illegal to remove any US citizen over the age of twelve, whose parents live in the US, from the US without the kid's consent.



If the law was propagated to the airlines and border agents, and the kids were informed of their rights---kids being pretty computer savvy---most kids could be protected from the places in Jamaica and Costa Rica and such--you know, the places you generally have to fly to instead of drive to--if not from the places in Mexico.



"

I think that's a pretty good idea, but I don't think we need any new laws to carry it off. All it would take is for a couple of kids to successfully sue the airlines or other common carriers for complicity in the crime of kidnapping.

The laws are fine as they are. Actually, we have too many stupid ones for our enforcement and judicial systems to ever get around to enforcing the worthy ones.

May 12-13: Sowed Hemp at Muddy  hole by Swamp. August 7: Began to separate the Male from the Female at Do - rather too late.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188301123X/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>George Washington (Diary)

[Antigen]

On 2004-03-31 15:16:00, CraigRogers wrote:

"Get over it Ginger... we all know that you and Bill are the "unregistered user".  You are not fooling anyone.  They only one that can post from the administrator position is the admin, and that is you.  Get some integrity!"

Man! Does it get any more plain than this? This guy is throughly convinced that he's right. Never mind that he and the voices in his head are the only ones who don't know that anybody can post anon to these forums.

Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
http://www.powersource.com/gallery/people/sittbull.html' target='_new'>Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877

[CraigRogers]

Thank you!  Your response was exactly what I was looking for.  It is amazing, you guys are like my little puppets.  I pull a string and you dance the dance I want.  I was having a blast before I realized how disrespectful I have been.  I am truly sorry for taking advantage of you, for taunting you with truth and love.  I know that you cant take it but I gave it to you anyway.  I am a bad boy.  

I feel bad that I have acted underhandedly.  Dealing with you guys is like dealing with a small child (like taking candy from a baby).  I felt like I had to coax you to reveal your true nature because you are so used to lying and hiding behind forums that you have forgotten exactly how scared and feeble your really are.

When I wrote that piece on Abundant Life Academy I knew that no matter what I say you are going to hate me and the things I stand for.  I was hoping that your responses would descredit you, and they did.  So, I had to bait you into a trap and you fell for it.  It is kind of funny, and kind of sad at the same time.  It is so funny how you can be so easily teased into showing your true hatred, and sad because you have to live with yourself every day.  I can go away and never have to deal with you again, but you still have to deal with yourself everyday.

I feel bad because I have been having so much fun playing and toying with you at your expense.  The power I have over you, to get you to dance around like fools is almost intoxicating.  I am ashamed at my behavior.  Last week I had no idea that I was going to upset so many people and have fun doing it.  

However, I have discovered that it is not a good thing to play around with people who are so damaged.  For that I now feel bad.  It was cruel to tease people who cant help themselves, and who are crying out for support.  I should have been there to help you through your childhood traumas and fears.  I am ashamed at my lack of compassion for you.  Your like the dirty dog that has mange, who has been discarded by the world, and beaten up by all those who pass bye.  I was one more person who passed you by and kicked you.

I am going back to work now and I want to say that I am sorry for playing with you like a toy, only to discard you when I was finished with you.  I know that deep down you are good people, only a little messed up. You will grow out of it someday, hopefully soon.

Again, I want to coach you before I go.  I want you to know that you descredited yourself and your cause through the Fornits posts.  I want to be able to send prospective parents of ALA to your site to show them how their child will turn out if they dont get them help now.  You guys would scare any parent into sending their child to a lock down program out of fear of turning out like you.

Today I had a parent tell me that they are now convinced that they need to send their child to a program because of what they have read on the Fornits site.  You guys scare them.  It is just the outcome I was looking for.  I dont need to discredit you, you do a perfect job of it yourself.  So, now I feel good that I can leave you all to yourself and you can continue to discredit yourself without me.  I would just get in the way.

As a matter of fact, we almost lost this prospective student today because the parent thought our program was to easy.  After reading your material they were seriously considering a stronger locked down program.  

I would bet that you guys are sending more kids to the WWASP type programs then any other organization I know.  You are more effect then the marketing group of TEEN HELP.  All I would have to say to a parent is, "do you want your child to turn out like one of those people that post on Fornit's?"  

As a matter of fact, for you conspiracy buffs... I would not be suprised to find out that Ginger and the rest of you are really relatives of the WWASP ownership.  You are their best marketing tool.  It would not suprise me to find out that you were being paid by some of the more unscrupulous Teen Help type of programs to act as their poster child.  I wonder how much that pays?  I bet you guys are really profiteers on the backs of children and only pretend to be against WWASP and other programs like it.

Well anyway, I wish you all the best.  I will not be seeing you anymore (unless it is to visit you behind bars).  My short visit is up.  However, I will be talking to Ginger in the near future.  By the way, does your local CPS agency know about your pot use in your home?  I happen to know that you homeschool your children.  Do they know you smoke pot?  I think that would be classified as child endangerment and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Until the laws change honey you are in danger of losing your children if you continue to smoke pot in front of your children.  Or, do you hide it from them? What do you think?

I wish I could say that I will see you soon, but I cant! bye-bye Butcher.. :wave: . (you need to get a new act Bill)  and bye-bye  :wave: Turd of Wisdumb (Ginger, you need to get a new act too..)  Sorry to expose you guys as being the characters behind the masks :roll: .  You are probably asking, "how did he know?"  

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread2298.shtml

[Antigen]

Quoted for posterity. In case anyone needs documentation to make a case that Mr. Rogers here is a total megalomaniac.

On 2004-03-31 16:11:00, CraigRogers wrote:

"Thank you!  Your response was exactly what I was looking for.  It is amazing, you guys are like my little puppets.  I pull a string and you dance the dance I want.  I was having a blast before I realized how disrespectful I have been.  I am truly sorry for taking advantage of you, for taunting you with truth and love.  I know that you cant take it but I gave it to you anyway.  I am a bad boy.  



I feel bad that I have acted underhandedly.  Dealing with you guys is like dealing with a small child (like taking candy from a baby).  I felt like I had to coax you to reveal your true nature because you are so used to lying and hiding behind forums that you have forgotten exactly how scared and feeble your really are.



When I wrote that piece on Abundant Life Academy I knew that no matter what I say you are going to hate me and the things I stand for.  I was hoping that your responses would descredit you, and they did.  So, I had to bait you into a trap and you fell for it.  It is kind of funny, and kind of sad at the same time.  It is so funny how you can be so easily teased into showing your true hatred, and sad because you have to live with yourself every day.  I can go away and never have to deal with you again, but you still have to deal with yourself everyday.



I feel bad because I have been having so much fun playing and toying with you at your expense.  The power I have over you, to get you to dance around like fools is almost intoxicating.  I am ashamed at my behavior.  Last week I had no idea that I was going to upset so many people and have fun doing it.  



However, I have discovered that it is not a good thing to play around with people who are so damaged.  For that I now feel bad.  It was cruel to tease people who cant help themselves, and who are crying out for support.  I should have been there to help you through your childhood traumas and fears.  I am ashamed at my lack of compassion for you.  Your like the dirty dog that has mange, who has been discarded by the world, and beaten up by all those who pass bye.  I was one more person who passed you by and kicked you.



I am going back to work now and I want to say that I am sorry for playing with you like a toy, only to discard you when I was finished with you.  I know that deep down you are good people, only a little messed up. You will grow out of it someday, hopefully soon.



Again, I want to coach you before I go.  I want you to know that you descredited yourself and your cause through the Fornits posts.  I want to be able to send prospective parents of ALA to your site to show them how their child will turn out if they dont get them help now.  You guys would scare any parent into sending their child to a lock down program out of fear of turning out like you.



Today I had a parent tell me that they are now convinced that they need to send their child to a program because of what they have read on the Fornits site.  You guys scare them.  It is just the outcome I was looking for.  I dont need to discredit you, you do a perfect job of it yourself.  So, now I feel good that I can leave you all to yourself and you can continue to discredit yourself without me.  I would just get in the way.



As a matter of fact, we almost lost this prospective student today because the parent thought our program was to easy.  After reading your material they were seriously considering a stronger locked down program.  



I would bet that you guys are sending more kids to the WWASP type programs then any other organization I know.  You are more effect then the marketing group of TEEN HELP.  All I would have to say to a parent is, "do you want your child to turn out like one of those people that post on Fornit's?"  



As a matter of fact, for you conspiracy buffs... I would not be suprised to find out that Ginger and the rest of you are really relatives of the WWASP ownership.  You are their best marketing tool.  It would not suprise me to find out that you were being paid by some of the more unscrupulous Teen Help type of programs to act as their poster child.  I wonder how much that pays?  I bet you guys are really profiteers on the backs of children and only pretend to be against WWASP and other programs like it.



Well anyway, I wish you all the best.  I will not be seeing you anymore (unless it is to visit you behind bars).  My short visit is up.  However, I will be talking to Ginger in the near future.  By the way, does your local CPS agency know about your pot use in your home?  I happen to know that you homeschool your children.  Do they know you smoke pot?  I think that would be classified as child endangerment and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Until the laws change honey you are in danger of losing your children if you continue to smoke pot in front of your children.  Or, do you hide it from them? What do you think?



I wish I could say that I will see you soon, but I cant! bye-bye Butcher.. :wave: . (you need to get a new act Bill)  and bye-bye  :wave: Turd of Wisdumb (Ginger, you need to get a new act too..)  Sorry to expose you guys as being the characters behind the masks :roll: .  You are probably asking, "how did he know?"  



http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread2298.shtml"

BTW, einstein. My views on prohibition have never been any secret. I've written and been published on the topic of drug policy for years before I ever even spun my first web page on Straight or the Troubled Parent industry. You're not a genius for searching on my name and finding this material. Here, let me give you some more material.

http://ADrugWarCarol.com/ I often post links to selected material from that graphic novel. Want a copy? I can deliver it in paper form in English or in electronic format in English, Spanish or French. More languages coming soon.

Or, if you prefer prose w/ foot notes, try http://fornits.com/books/ The first book in my listing, Drug Crazy by Mike Gray, is the source for most of the historic facts stylized in ADWC.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones

[Anonymous]

Craig Rogers....now that is a Christian......NOT!

And yep, we beleive every word he says.  Why, because he follows the Lord's example....NOT!

Tell your followers Craig if they want to know what a hypocrit is, tell em it is YOU.

[GregFL]

god god Craig, from your writing it seems you have deep seated problems. First, I am a moderator of fornits. ALL of your identity assumptions are incorrect, mkay? None are right.
Why are you so paranoid and dogmatic about it? The people here that know the various identities of the posters get a huge kick out of your incorrect assumptions.

Second, I suspect you are a huge liar. I don't believe your idiotic concocted stories about parents now demanding their kids being locked up after seeing this site. What a crock of shit.

You love throwing the term hate around but you, and you alone around here seem to hate people. No one here hates you, we don't even know you. You have, however, been the source of much laughing, giggling, and instant messaging about what a complete moron you are showing yourself to be. You have very limited conversational skills and might as well have painted a target on  yourself along with a sign that says "make fun of me".

Don't forget, Craig, when pointing to this site to show people how they need to enroll their children, to follow the first and most important rule, HONESTY. Tell them we are almost to a person graduates of the teen help industry. Tell them that we are the result of the product you are selling.

Now, unless you wish to further threaten people here with CPS, the FBI, or some other silly notion, take a hike. We have had our fun with you and your stich is getting old.[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-31 16:45 ]

[spots]

KarenZ, I have spoken with you for more than a year on the Internet and have had respect for your judgements.  After reading this thread, however, from Abundant Life's director, .... do you really think this guy's program was good for Nate, and do you really let him work for this jerk part-time?  

BTW, I take the knowledge that you are a Born-Again Christian at face value.  I even glaze over when you start referring to scriptures without becoming disgusted, although I believe your Bible was written by a small group of men trying to formulate guidelines for their "flock".  But Mr. Rogers is the epitome of the arrogant, divisive, hostile, paranoid, "see-I-told-you-so" sort of person who gives Christians a bad name.  If he treats the whole world with such disdain and anger, he must treat his "kids" the same way.  

To Mr. Rogers, you state that you will be leaving this forum, but I'm sure that's a lie.  You are too self-involved to let a single post go by if there's a chance that it revolves around you.  Good or bad, you'll be reading.  How do you find time to refute every single criticism if it means hours at your computer when you should be running your "school"?

[Anonymous]

Craig, the fact is anybody can post Anon.  Just ask Karen Burnett, who should have no problem confirming this. Second, what's with all the anger and hostility?  Love your real or imagined enemy, it is God's will. This reminds me of the I HATE CAREY club which turned this forum into a virtual bully pulpit for months.  Please, do not presume to think for even one minute that you have the support of all Christians because I am one, and you most definitly do not have my respect or my support.  You lost that when you proved to me through your vile, evil words that you do not hear, speak or obey the Words of God.

Yours in Christ,
An Anon Anon

[The Butcher]

god god Craig, from your writing it seems you have deep seated problems

Oh, he's got a problem allright...ME!  :grin:  

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Anonymous]

I can see were parents might be fearful of what they see here; but the problem with the premise is the scarry folks are the products of a program.
That is scarry.

I believe there are good programs. I believe there are kids who need them. But no matter how much research a parent does, a certain amount of trust is required to place a child in any program. And no program admits to being an abusive hell hole.
This is scarry.

Parents need to be able to make the decision, because the kid isn't thinking clearly; but then neither are the parents. They are stressed and angry maybe; both conditions that make smart people do stupid things.
This is scarry.

It would be much more helpful to everyone if ways and means to tell good from bad and ways and means to avoid letting emotions rule and ways and means to shut down and hold accountable the truly abusive, ect were hashed out instead of all this sniping at each other.

But maybe the issue itself is just to frought with emotion for the debate to take place without sniping. Appears to be the case.