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[Antigen]

Indeed. And all those counselors in the industry who oversaw the deaths of their charges due to dehydration, hyperthermia, treatable ailments left untreated and, especially, suffocation during restraint are at least as responsible for their actions or inaction.

You can't have it both ways.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones

[Anonymous]

On 2004-03-16 11:10:00, Antigen wrote:

"Indeed. And all those counselors in the industry who oversaw the deaths of their charges due to dehydration, hyperthermia, treatable ailments left untreated and, especially, suffocation during restraint are at least as responsible for their actions or inaction.


You can't have it both ways.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones

"

 :nworthy:

http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.c ... erapy.html

[Anonymous]

"You can't have it both ways."

Who is tryiing to have it both ways?

If the counselors has done something wrong, if he has hurt a child in the past he is responsible.  He should be held accountable.  

Individuals who have been victims of abuse do not have a liscense to commit murder.  It is not right to just assume the man deserved to be beat over the head with a baseball bat just because he worked in a program.

At this point we don't know if the counselor was doing something wrong or not.  We can not say this dead man was guilty of wrong doing just because others in the past may have done so. At this point we can not draw the conclusion that someone else, society and/or others, are responsible for the action of those two boys.  WE DON'T HAVE ALL OF THE FACTS.  That was my point.

[Anonymous]

Ginger you say  "You can't have it both ways."

Well you can not say it is the programs fault these children have murdered this adult unless you are willing to say it is the program who is due credit for the others who have turned out for the better.

[Antigen]

On 2004-03-16 12:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

""You can't have it both ways."



Who is tryiing to have it both ways?



If the counselors has done something wrong, if he has hurt a child in the past he is responsible.  He should be held accountable.  

Oh no! Not according to Narvin, Ken and other industry bigwheels! When a kid dies as a result of "treatment", it's the kid's fault for making them treat him or her so rough. Never, ever is it the fault of the program staff who actually caused the death.

Individuals who have been victims of abuse do not have a liscense to commit murder.  

Agreed. I never once hurt anyone in an attempt to either break out of Straight or to disrupt group. However, I saw others respond to the abuse w/ violence on nearly a daily basis. As noted prior in this thread, this isn't the first time a couple of kids have hurt or killed a staffer during an escape. And you can expect it to happen again and again unless and until the adults in this story quit inflicting the kinds of abuse that will reliably drive some kids to violence.

It is not right to just assume the man deserved to be beat over the head with a baseball bat just because he worked in a program.

Funny, that's what Hermann said!http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/meetthedefendants.html

At this point we don't know if the counselor was doing something wrong or not.  We can not say this dead man was guilty of wrong doing just because others in the past may have done so. At this point we can not draw the conclusion that someone else, society and/or others, are responsible for the action of those two boys.  WE DON'T HAVE ALL OF THE FACTS.  That was my point.



"

His job was to prevent these kids from escaping. To characterize the place as a "group home", asif any of these kids could just walk away from the place if they felt threatened, is a sorry joke.

By your reconing, hit men are not guilty of murder, only the people who hire them.

Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734

[Anonymous]

Bottom line, these are troubled teens, are they not?  To suddenly expect (demand) that they be tried as adults is preposterous.  No one knows why they wanted to escape and what their intentions were when they hit the counselor. Without a second staff member on duty, the only witnessess are the children, themselves.  Will they be believed?  Can the 2 teens get a fair trial in a small, close-knit community like Cedar City?  Why murder and not manslaughter?  Where are the facts to support these boys intended to murder their counselor?  Other kids who have planned and attempted escapes have attacked their counselors (RED CLIFF ASCENT), tied them up, stolen food and supplies, etc. They were not trying to murder anybody.

[Carey]

According to what you are saying Ginger, this man was beat over the head and he deserved it.  You are sayihg you don't need to know the facts or hear the facts...you are saying he is guilty just because you say he is guilty and he deserved to be beaten to death.  

I guess with that line of reasoning...Amberly also deserves to have been beaten to death.  Now, don't misunderstand me, I don't think anyone, not even Amberly deserved to be beaten to death...but had one of the teens there done so to her while she was at Dundee, if I bought into your line of thinking, she would have deserved it.  Sorry, I don't think that is the case.

Oh no! Not according to Narvin, Ken and other industry bigwheels! When a kid dies as a result of "treatment", it's the kid's fault for making them treat him or her so rough. Never, ever is it the fault of the program staff who actually caused the death.

First if they have said that, I would like to see where.  If you haven't actually heard them say that and you are assuming that is how they feel about it, well I don't know that I agree that that is the case.  Second, if they do beleive "its the kids fault," it does not mean that is the way it is.  I don't base my beliefs and opinions on those of others.  So, I agree with anon, I don't think that that gives the kids a liscense to commit murder.

If you can blame the program when kids who have been in one commit outrageous crimes, then you need to give the program credit for those who are doing much better than they were before they went in.

If the actions (good or bad) of kids is a result of program placement....then the actions (good or bad) of kids is as a result of program placement.  You can't have it both ways.  You have to look at each individual case.  You have to have the facts surrounding them.  

Does this mean I am for programs.  NO.  I am not.  I think everyone has a right to their freedom.  I think until they have broken a law and been found guilty of a crime deserving of jail time, they should not have that freedom taken away.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-03-16 14:21:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Bottom line, these are troubled teens, are they not?  To suddenly expect (demand) that they be tried as adults is preposterous.  No one knows why they wanted to escape and what their intentions were when they hit the counselor. Without a second staff member on duty, the only witnessess are the children, themselves.  Will they be believed?  Can the 2 teens get a fair trial in a small, close-knit community like Cedar City?  Why murder and not manslaughter?  Where are the facts to support these boys intended to murder their counselor?  Other kids who have planned and attempted escapes have attacked their counselors (RED CLIFF ASCENT), tied them up, stolen food and supplies, etc. They were not trying to murder anybody.  



"

Unfortunately, leaving him in a closet to die of his injuries counts as depraved indifference, which makes it murder.

If they had called 911 and ordered the guy an ambulance before they finished running off, or told another kid, or given the guy first aid and slid a note under another kid's door to help him, or phoned 911 from a pay phone (free call) as soon as they got to one to get an ambulance to him, their lawyer would be able to use that to argue the case down from murder to manslaughter *if* the  guy had still died.

By making no effort to see the guy got help or medical care, even if they didn't intend to kill him, they showed depraved indifference to whether he lived or died.  Hence the murder charge.

I suspect they were just trying to get away.  Where they made their biggest mistake was in not calling the guy an ambulance just as soon as they could get to a phone.

It was also a mistake to beat the guy unconscious, rather than just overpowering him and gagging him with a pair or two of socks, tying him to a chair, and then also calling 911 for an ambulance at their earliest convenience (risk of positional asphyxiation).

The 911 call would have pinpointed their location, but if they then took off immediately they had as much chance of escaping as they did in the first place.

Problem was, they were kids and kids lack judgement---which is one reason in favor for trying them as juveniles.

If they're tried as adults, if I were their defense attorney I'd argue that they weren't indifferent, but that due to their poor judgement (as a result of their not being fully adult) they didn't perceive that the counselor was in danger of dying.

But that's the defense's job.  The prosecutor's job is to push hard enough he can maybe talk the defense into a plea agreement before they have to take it to court.

Their best option is probably to cop a plea if they can get one.

[Anonymous]

Carey, let me clue you in here: DHS has revoked this program's license.  Among the 3 violations cited, DHS alleges the program did not do a background check on the counselor.  As a parent, I would think this would greatly concern you, not whether WWASPS said or didn't say something, though I understand the point you were trying to make.  NO ONE KNOWS what was going through those kid's minds.  Until all the evidence is revealed, the least people can do is presume them innocent.  That is the law.

 :smokin:

[Deborah]

***If they're tried as adults, if I were their defense attorney I'd argue that they weren't indifferent, but that due to their poor judgement (as a result of their not being fully adult) they didn't perceive that the counselor was in danger of dying.***

How bout temporary insanity. Distressed beyond being reasonable and rational.
No one in their right mind- at peace with themselves and the world- kills another person, ever. I believe all murders could be classified as temporary insanity.

No one can know for sure what went down- what might have provoked the boys to such a drastic reaction.

One huge mistake these programs make is to provoke the teens, then punish them for having a reaction. They know they're being manipulated. This isn't respectful. And doesn't illicite a respectful response. The teen either surrenders to the will and manipulation of the adult or defends themselves in whatever way comes to mind at any given moment.

We live in a sick, sick country that would try a kid as an adult. Fear rules society's reaction as well.

[Deborah]

***Carey, let me clue you in here: DHS has revoked this program's license. Among the 3 violations cited, DHS alleges the program did not do a background check on the counselor. As a parent, I would think this would greatly concern you, not whether WWASPS said or didn't say something***


"Never look at the trombones, it only encourages them."
Richard Strauss

[Carey]

Deborah you nor I are judge and jury!

You and I do not have all of the facts!  I myself would not dare say he deserved to die nor would I dare to say these boys committed murder...because I don't know.  What I do know is that there are alot of people out there who really don't care about facts.  Where we differ, you and I and a few others, is on the fact that I am open to the truth.  I am open to the WHOLE truth, not just the parts that I want told and that I want heard.

Oh, and you don't need to clue me in, I am following the news just like you.  The fact that the school was not liscensed properly does not give the boys the right to committ murder (if that is what happen) nor does it mean the counselor deserve to die.

As a parent, I would think this would greatly concern you, not whether WWASPS said or didn't say something***

Deborah I did not know you were so in the know on what my concerns are.  Nor did I think you cared.  But just so you can be "in the know" on whether or not I am concerned about what "WWASPS said or didn't say,"  well I am.  I am concerned to the point of knowing what the truth really is.  Hey, you learn something new every day, don't ya Deborah?  I guess you and I just learned that YOU don't know everything there is to know.


[ This Message was edited by:  on 2004-03-16 18:34 ]

[Anonymous]

While there may have been some degree of familial and societal breakdown that impacted these boys lives, the reality is they chose to end the life of this person with whom I had worked both as his mentor when he was attending Southern Utah University, and also when working in the national parks system.  I know and care deeply about this person who these thugs destroyed.  Cedar City is on I-15.  It is only 160 miles from Las Vegas.  These kids could have run and caught a lift easily.  There was no reason (justifiable or unjustifiable) for them to kill him.

Anson was not a big bouncer type person.  He suffered from some pretty serious birth defects that limited his strength and dexterity.  His physical appearance was also altered due to the defects and the numerous surgeries required to correct problems.

I think these guys saw his physical form and not the person who they destroyed.  Like so many of their generation, they focused not on greater good, but on their own selfish desires.

How pathetic is it to think that these boys are merely a product of their environment.  They chose to kill.  Let them suffer the maximum penalty allowed by State law.

[Anonymous]

It is a terrible tragedy what happened.  My heart aches for the family of this young man, as it does for the family of the 2 boys accused of his murder.  I also grieve for these boys, who for reasons unknown, committed an act for which they could spend the rest of their lives in prison.  However, to crucify them in the court of public opinion is a terrible injustice.  Calling for their execution/incarceration without examining the evidence against them is uncivilized.  Clearly, there is much more to this than has been reported and I for one, care deeply that the facts, not supposition, will determine their fate.

[Anonymous]

What in God's name was this young man doing working all by himself in a group home for troubled teens?  Could this tragedy have been prevented had another counselor or staff member been on duty, as mandated by the terms and conditions of the group home's operating license which states there MUST BE TWO?  I wonder ....

 :cry: