I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight

[GregFL]

On 2004-03-03 03:53:00, taureana wrote:

 Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.? (Volume 2, page 319) So we can confidently conclude that the Flood legends confirm the reality of the Biblical account.



"

Interesting conclusion, but not based in fact.  Try this on, a cut and paste in response to your cut and paste. No evidence, just interpretations of ancient myths!

  The obvious similarities could not have been, not by any stretch of imagination, due to coincidence. One of the account is clearly dependent on the other. So the question is, which is the original and which is the copy? There are many reasons to believe that the Babylonian version is the original:


The first is antiquity. The writing of the epic of Gilgamesh has been dated by archaeologists to around 2000 BCE. Thus it predates the Genesis account by at least a few centuries.[a]
The second is the presence of loan words. The Akkadian word for pitch (or bitumen): kofer. This is precisely the word used in the Genesis story. Nowhere else in the Bible does the word kofer appears except in the story of the flood. [4]
The third is the general flow of influence. We would expect the greater civilization to have a greater cultural influence on a lesser one. Compared to Babylonia, Israel was, as Cyrus Gordon said, a ?backwater of sorts?.
The fourth reason is from the original source of the myth . Floods are common in the Mesopotamian plains, it is unusual in usually arid Israel. It is easy to see how the flood myth could have originated from some stories told in the Babylonian plains, it is not so easy to see how anyone from Israel could have thought of that myth originally.
Finally, the location of the story gives a clue to its origins. The geography of the ark story points towards its Mesopotamian origin. Noah?s ark landed on Mount Ararat, which is at the headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates.
It is therefore conclusive that the story in Genesis is a direct descendent of the Babylonian story.

The Akkadian tablets, like the story in Genesis, are collections of myths. There was, however, a brief period of respectability, in the first half of the twentieth century, given to the notion of the occurrence of an actual catastrophic flood. An archaeological expedition in 1929 led by Sir Charles Leonard Wooley (1880-1960) found at the site of the ancient city of Ur, a stratum of clean clay about eight feet thick. Wooley originally estimated the layer of silt to be about four hundred miles long and about one hundred miles wide. The layer was dated at around 4000BC. Had this been true, a flood of such a magnitude would certainly has qualified as "world-wide" to the ancient Babylonians, for the area estimated by Wooley represented the whole of the known world to them. However, subsequent expeditions has shown that the thick layer of silt is localized and was nowhere as widespread as Wooley first thought it to be. [6]

Was Noah actually a historical person? Again archaeological evidence supplied the answer. In 1933 clay tablets were discovered in Mari, an ancient city in the Mesopotamian plain. In these tablets (there were about 20,000 discovered), the name Noah appeared many times; as the name of a god.[7] In fact Noah?s name is actually a musculanisation of the goddess of rain, Nuah.

a. The story of the twelve tablets were estimated to have been written about 2000 BCE. Even assuming "best case" biblical chronology, i.e. that Genesis was written by Moses himself, this brings the writing of Genesis to only about 1400 BCE. Thus the Akkadian tablet is earlier than the Genesis story. According to critical theologians, the earliest form of the Hebrew flood story was written only around 900 BCE. But the version as we have it in the Bible was not complete until the period of the exile c. 6th century BCE.  






[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-03 08:43 ]

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2004-03-03 08:19:00, GregFL wrote:




Dear people, floods are not unusual events. The ancient people thought the world was defined by the horizon. During the  time the flood supposedly occured, Egypt was prospering and writing down their history. They apparently stayed dry througout this event. NO MENTION OF THE FLOOD FROM EGYPTION HISTORY.There is NO credible evidence of a worldwide flood and plenty of evidence the story of the bible flood was a plagarism of an earlier myth. The sheer foly of claiming two of every species on the planet fit into a ship with only one door,were fed and kept alive(all with very unique dietary needs..imagine the food stock),  survived and mated is unreal, especially in light of all the animals, insects, primates and other life that are unique to areas far far away from the Ark. Did the people who wrote this fable know about this?  Nope. but if there was a god, he sure would. More evidence this was a man fable.

Exactly!  IF there was a flood of devastating proportions, 'devastating proportions' would be defined by their view of the world at the time.  As Greg said their view of the world was limited to what they could see.  If a flood came along that was worse than anyone had ever seen before (doesn't mean it was covering the entire Earth, but from THEIR point of view it would be) there would be a need to explain that, just like the thunder example.  Now that we have scientific FACTS about the world then and now, we can explain previously 'unexplainable' phenomena.  I wish I could remember the Discovery Channel (SatanTV to some believers) program that explained how a 'great' flood could have happened, but that it was very different from what is written in the Bible.  They theorize that approx. 1/3 of a mountain was blown off by an eruption and slid into the water.  When the wave created by this reached the next shore, major flood.  A flood of proportions that no one would have ever seen before.  Pretty scary.  If they could come up with a REASON why it happened (we sinned and God sent the flood to rid the Earth of sinners) then they could possibly PREVENT it from happening again.  That brings me to the question I asked before....What if we, being aware of our own mortality, are grasping at something to believe, that we're not in this alone, that someone is looking out for us, that we go on after we die.  Those are all comforting thoughts, just like it was comforting to believe that if they behaved better, they could prevent another flood.

Sacred cows make the best hamburger.  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=circlofmiamithem&keyword=mark+twain&mode=books' target='_new'> Mark Twain

[GregFL]

On 2004-03-03 03:45:00, taureana wrote:

"

On 2004-03-02 12:49:00, Anonymous wrote:


"I'm not a bible scholar or a religious zealot, but I think the "flood" is a myth/tradition that is in lot of different religions, some in fact many older than christianity.   Same thing with the scape goat thing of Jesus.   I think I remember this stuff from religion classes in my college days."

Another evidence for the Flood appears to exist in the fossil record. At one time, according to this record, great saber-toothed tigers stalked their prey in Europe, horses larger than any now living roamed North America, and mammoths foraged in Siberia. Then, all around the world, species of mammals became extinct. At the same time, there was a sudden change of climate. Tens of thousands of mammoths were killed and quick-frozen in Siberia. Alfred Wallace, the well-known contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered that such a widespread destruction must have been caused by some exceptional worldwide event. Many have argued that this event was the Flood.

Yawn.

No, the sedimentary evidence for a cataclysmic (sp ?) event that caused world wide extinction of many specicies exists and has been scientifically explained, dated and the area is known. It is not a flood.

Care to bite?



[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-03 11:03 ]

[GregFL]

On 2004-03-02 22:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Posted: 2004-03-02 22:05:00  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 'Biblical' locust plague threatens Mideast

Ahead of Passover, U.N. agency warns of potential devastation



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: March 2, 2004

1:00 a.m. Eastern







© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com



With the Passover celebration just weeks away, a locust plague of biblical proportions could threaten parts of the Middle East and Africa, according to a United Nations agency.

Double Yawn. Locusts plaques are nothing new and nothing unusual.

[kpickle39]

But , I'll tell ya what ...it doesn't shake my belief in a supreme being who I'll call God.   And Greg, I do appreciate all that you have written.  It is obvious that you are well learned and I very much respect that.  That said, I still believe in God.  I  don't care if there ever was a great flood, or sodom adn gomorah(sp), I do believe in God.  It may be niave, but it gives me comfort in times of hardship.  In fact, when I was on first phase, and locked in rooms, starved, beaten, humiliated, etc I would turn to prayer.  Believe it or not, it helped me through straight and deal w/my demons after I graduated.  I remeber being sat on while on 1st phase.  I struggled and cried/screamed for almost an hour.  I then tried to calm myself down...it worked, but only when I began asking God to help me.  Now, I may have been able to get in the calm state of mind w/out a belief in God, but for me it works.  Reading the bible, and studying Jesus's life also helps me set a measuring stick on how my life should be...although, I always fall short.  Oh well, such is life.

[GregFL]

On 2004-03-03 03:45:00, taureana wrote:

"

College professors and educators are PAID to teach evolution rather than creation, to discredit the Bible as non-scientific.

"

No, this post is condenscending and insulting to the thousands of committed and dedicated scientists working in the field of higher education. In addition, it has no basis in fact and is just anti-science pro creationist religious propoganda.

Scientists are trained to go where the evidence leads them, to or from their theory. Science is self correcting with new information. Science is subject to peer review. "creationism" is none of that.

The bible and the "creation story" simply has no place in a science class until such time legitimate sciencific evidence indicates creation is a viable theory. It is not, it is wholey unsupported by any credible evidence. "creation science" in fact is not science. "creationism starts with a conclusion, that the bible, a supernatural book, is the infallible word of god, and tries to back into that. "creationism" accepts the supernatural without evidence because it is written in a "infallible" book. This is totally against all scientific methodology and disqualifies "creationism" as a legitimate discipline of science. "creationism" is a creation of religion, not science.

Class dismissed, now Go across the hall to Philosophy or religion and study the creation myth. Leave the scientists alone so they can test scientific theories, not spew christian religious propoganda.



[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-03 11:06 ]

[Anonymous]

Where's old Penis Birder when you need him?  ::

[GregFL]

I love sincere christians! Thanks Mike for your writings. However, this thread isn't about whether you believe or not, it is about presenting evidence for these super fantastic and supernatural things being claimed.

You claim none but choose to believe anyway. That is a personal decision I can't critise!

And I do believe prayer works, but I believe the change affected comes from within the person and not an outside source aka God or Jesus or some other supernatural entity.



[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-03 10:36 ]

[kpickle39]

Well, I can't produce any evidence 'bout the "miricles" or "supernatural events" that are attributed to Jesus or God.  The only evidence that I have is the "miricles"that have happened in my life.  Of course, God helps those that help themselves.  The supernatural events that happened to me are:

1.  I graduated straight and lived to tell about it

2.  I fell in love w/a woman that actually accepts me and understands my demons.

3.  I am not too crazy.

4.  I have dealt w/my anger 'bout straight, sembler et al.

5.  American by birth, southern by the grace of God (just kidding)

Now do I attribute these miricles in my life to God?  Yes, and lots of hard work on my part. (and plenty of forgiveness on my wifes)

Keep up the thread....this is great!

PS - I heard on NPR last week that htere has been a study on prayer and its impact on people in crisis.   The study said that praying for others has no effect on their hard times, but individual prayer for oneself does have a positive impact on defeating things like illness.  

[ This Message was edited by: kpickle39 on 2004-03-03 10:46 ]

[Anonymous]

Greg this thread was started by someone sharing about the Passion of the Christ movie and his thoughts on it but somewhere the focus seems to have changed. personally I've not seen the movie yet and would like to hear from more who have

wondering..

how is it that your daughter is in a baptist school? for whatever reason hope that someday she is accepted for who she is and what she may believe by you -dad-

because if dad is  angry/annoyed (as you seem) that she might believe something dad sees as wrong what would dad do to make her see his way?...would you care less and condition your love for her based on what she believes?  some parents who place their children in facilities tried to change what their children believed and attempted to ensure they would grow up and live the life they (parents)thought was pleasing..hope that you are an unconditional lover where she is concerned.

also curious saw where someone wrote they love satan - is that you? if yes, what's to love about satan? and if not what is it that you personally believe in?

[Anonymous]

I love Satan cos he's my PAL!  We have lotsa fun 2gether.  If you chritians are supposed to love your enemies, why don't you luv Satan 2? :smokin:  :smokin:  :flame:  :flame:  :flame:  :flame:  :flame:

[GregFL]

On 2004-03-03 11:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Greg this thread was started by someone sharing about the Passion of the Christ movie and his thoughts on it but somewhere the focus seems to have changed. personally I've not seen the movie yet and would like to hear from more who have



wondering..



how is it that your daughter is in a baptist school? for whatever reason hope that someday she is accepted for who she is and what she may believe by you -dad-



because if dad is  angry/annoyed (as you seem) that she might believe something dad sees as wrong what would dad do to make her see his way?...would you care less and condition your love for her based on what she believes?  some parents who place their children in facilities tried to change what their children believed and attempted to ensure they would grow up and live the life they (parents)thought was pleasing..hope that you are an unconditional lover where she is concerned.



also curious saw where someone wrote they love satan - is that you? if yes, what's to love about satan? and if not what is it that you personally believe in?





"

Oh boy, here we go. Lets turn this interesting discussion into a ad hominem attack on the doubting thomas.

Just to appease you, anon (why are you anon but asking personal questions?) I will answer them honestly.

Lets start backward because the last is my favorite.

1) NO I DON'T BELIEVE IN SATAN. THAT WOULD INDICATE I BELIEVED IN THE BIBLE AND IN THE SUPERNATURAL. I DON'T.  That was a troll post between two of my posts. Go back and read, fer christs sake!

2) My daughter is in a baptist school because she is a baptist and wanted to go there. I share custody fully 1/2 time with my ex and my daughter is there with my blessing. I don't object to religion, ANON, I reject to anti-thought supernatural mumbo jumbo. My precious daughter also knows how I feel about her science class. I also take her and pick her up from church and from Wednsday night church meeting, and even mill about and socialize with the church members (the horror!) In fact, I used to go there when I was married some 7 years passed. I tell my dauther to don't let anyone decide what she should believe but instead to explore topics and decide on her own. She does just that.

3) the topic switched to a debate because claims were made and evidence was asked for, then more claims were made and people whined they were being attacked when they weren't. If you want to talk more about the movie, by all means do, but I got the feeling all was said about the movie by everyone who wanted to.  Most people liked it,some didn't. Still more are enjoying this debate, and I suspect more are reading than are contributing, including up to now..you. Care to share? Go ahead.

4) Lastly, I am not angry or annoyed. That discintion is saved here for the credulous like you that seem to always feel they have to assign negative attributes to others that don't agree with them.  In fact, I am still enjoying this conversation. It goes almost like every religious debate, the religious attack the non religious at the same time claiming they are under attack. However, I don't take offense, I enjoy the dance and actually smiled when I saw your post. In fact, I was wondering what took you so long.

 :grin:

[GregFL]

On 2004-03-03 10:44:00, kpickle39 wrote:

"Well, I can't produce any evidence 'bout the "miricles" or "supernatural events" that are attributed to Jesus or God.  The only evidence that I have is the "miricles"that have happened in my life.  Of course, God helps those that help themselves.  The supernatural events that happened to me are:



1.  I graduated straight and lived to tell about it



2.  I fell in love w/a woman that actually accepts me and understands my demons.



3.  I am not too crazy.



4.  I have dealt w/my anger 'bout straight, sembler et al.



5.  American by birth, southern by the grace of God (just kidding)



Now do I attribute these miricles in my life to God?  Yes, and lots of hard work on my part. (and plenty of forgiveness on my wifes)



Keep up the thread....this is great!



PS - I heard on NPR last week that htere has been a study on prayer and its impact on people in crisis.   The study said that praying for others has no effect on their hard times, but individual prayer for oneself does have a positive impact on defeating things like illness.  

[ This Message was edited by: kpickle39 on 2004-03-03 10:46 ]"

Wouldn't that be great if it was true? I think attitude affects one personally, and if someone believes praying will help them, then there is going to be at times a placebo affect. I see no evidence of supernatural intervention. There was a study some years back that indicated blind prayer affected statistically (by a very small margin) the healing of heart patients and the christian community and news media jumped all over the story. The framers of the experiment blind prayed for certain individuals and those individuals seemed to statistically improve at a small but measurable increase over the others. Unfortunately, the studies were proven flawed, The selection methods were shown to not be random,it couldn't be repeated under proper controls(which is absolutely essential for statistical validity) and didn't survive peer review. In typical fashion, that didn't get reported in the mainstream media and websites still report this as fact, that prayer has been "proven" to improve your chance of recovery.

And Mike my friend, the things you listed are are great happenings in your life but none of them are explained away by the supernatural. I have acomplished many of them myself without praying or believing in God.

BTW, I did a stint as a believer actually during my final months as a seedling. Care to know what cured me?  I read the bible cover to cover. The more I read, the more interested I became, but also the less I believed. My favorite book in the old testament is Genesis (although Kings and Leviticus follow right behind) and my favorite book of the new testament is Revelation. Talk about an acid trip!! Revelation is like talking to a mad man on schrooms!

Reading the bible  is a wonderfull exercise in critical thinking. However, you must pay attention  to what you are reading to really appreciate what it is, a window into the superstitious mind of people several thousand years ago..

[kpickle39]

supernatural?  prolly  not, but they were miracles in my life.  I thought my post 'bout praying for others was in line w/what you wrote.  At least, that is what I meant by the post.

[GregFL]

You are the exception in this thread, Mike. You are approaching this debate/ discussion with an open mind and explaining very logically your beliefs, all without crying foul or attacking the opposing side..

Kudos.