Married in San Francisco

[ottkat]

Heya Gang,

For those of you who want to see, I posted some pix of my wife and I getting married in San Francisco on Monday in the rush of queers to get to City Hall there.

As some of you already know, we were married in Canada last October; however, the US does not recognize it, and maybe with the court fights this one will be legal.  Either way, it was an opportunity for us to express our love and to be a part of history.

Just click on the "WWW" link below, which goes to my diary.  Naturally, you can read the account, or just go directly to the pix.

Kathy

[Anonymous]

Awesome Kathy!  History in the making! Congratulations! Let's hope it sticks and... that one day they'll acknowledge it in your town and mine!!

-an old (almost) neighbor from Brooklyn

[ottkat]

On 2004-02-19 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Awesome Kathy!  History in the making! Congratulations! Let's hope it sticks and... that one day they'll acknowledge it in your town and mine!!

-an old (almost) neighbor from Brooklyn"

If you want, send me an email (email addy is linked at top of diary page) and let me know who you are.  I like to keep in contact with the gang.  For a while a bunch of us were living in Brooklyn.

Kathy

[Anonymous]

I know Keven, that you believe what your doing is "right". And it certainly would appear to be a legitimate, alternative lifestyle considering the increased number of supporters, the almost indifference of the average American, and the legislative changes in favor of such unions.     However, it still doesn`t change the simple fact that the Creator disapproves to say the least!    I have alot of opinions about things in life, as we all do,but mine are about unimportant life issues like what sports I like or car I should get. I don`t have an opinion about how a person should live,but I do have enough knowledge and experience in Gods word to know what is right wrong. Both the old and new testaments(especially Pauls letter to the church in rome) talk at length about such diveations from Gods plan and the innevitable consequences that follow.         Please don`t misunderstand me, I don`t want to sound judgemental in any way,I`m not attacking you or any one as a person, how could I when I come from a past very similar to your present.I`m simply stating the facts as they are presented to us from Gods Holy Word, tried and tested by yours truly and countless others with great success at surmounting their afflictions. The worse thing about sin is the disillusionment that I suffer when I`m in the middle of it!I can actually convince myself that what I`m doing is "okay"and I don`t have to look to far to find someone to condone my twistedness. Enough said, someone here will call me homophobic or scream "hatecrime", the response to anyone who dares to shine the light of truth and reason on such matters. Hell I`ve done that too, its the equivelant to blaming the cops for busting me.How dare they single me out and take my drugs or confront me on my actions,after all isn`t it a free country? Sounds commical from that perspective, but is it really any different?                      Ciao for now!

[Anonymous]

Your point is mute!
"separation of church and state!"
and...
my guess is 37 years ago or so...
when it became legal for a black woman to marry a white man, your ass would have been screaming some other ignorant rant about how that was immoral!

[Anonymous]

oh honey, if you want to criticize Kathy or if you have found the light... tell us your name. If god is on your side, why must you be such a coward. Show your face in the Lords name. You will surely make it to heaven for that.

[ottkat]

Hello Anonymous, Most Likely Christian, Person,

Let me just quote you, before I start:

?However, it still doesn?t change the simple fact that the Creator disapproves to say the least!?

I find it curious, in the least, for you to say that you ?do have enough knowledge and experience in Gods word to know what is right wrong? [sic].  Considering that you reference to ?Gods Holy Word? and to Paul?s Epistle to the Romans, then I can surmise that your knowledge and experience are based upon your reading the Bible.

Since you mention Paul, I have to ask how you tease out what to act upon and what to ignore in what he wrote.  If you are a male, do you make sure your wife covers her head in public when she is proclaiming the gospel (if you are female, do you do that on your own)?  Do you consider long hair on a man to be unnatural and a disgrace?  Do you keep your wife from cutting her hair?  Paul, in 1 Corinthians 11 noted all of these as requirements.  And as a master do you keep your slaves well, being mindful that you will all be equal in heaven?  Paul also recommended this in Ephesians 6 (which, by logical extension, means that you can keep slaves!).  Of course, I could go on.  I wonder how you choose the parts of God?s Holy Word that you are going to follow, and those that you won?t.

But acknowledging that one probably cannot follow the Bible literally, that it would be rather ridiculous to do so in this day and age, then why ascribe your beliefs to certain sections of a very old text that you choose to follow as a matter of faith?  If you ?come from a past very similar? to my current lifestyle, then at least acknowledge that you made the choice to leave that life for your own reasons.  What other people may do they will do, but I will not call you a homophobe.  I will however, note that I believe that describing certain aspects as sinful in order to maintain guilt as a motivating negative emotion is counterproductive in my life.  I honestly don?t recommend it.

For me, as a student the Old Religion, I honor the Goddess and the God (neither being ?the Creator,? by the way).  I, however, do not worship anything, and I take nothing on as a belief until I examine it and find its resonance within me.  Sin is not a concept in my life ? I take responsibility for my own actions, I work to act in accordance with ethics, and to honor the dignity of all life around me.  Ergo, I suffer the consequences of my actions.

Mind you, I say none of this to deride your religious beliefs.  You obviously care enough about me to take the time to write, and I thank you.  I am sincere in this; one of the tenets that I follow is to respect other religious, spiritual, and life paths.  I ask that you have the same respect for mine.

Kathy

Ps: Just for future reference: my name used to be spelled Kevin, not Keven.  But out of respect, and since it is my legal name, I do ask that you use Kathy or Kathryn.  Thank you.

[Christy]

Kathy -
CONGRATS AGAIN!  Sooo cool to see the pix!  Here is a fun email from my mom to me (she is a WAY liberal minister) - some biblical quotes on the institution of marraige!
Christy J


 Subject: In defense of Biblical marriage
>
> The Presidential Prayer Team is currently urging us to: "Pray for the
> President as he seeks wisdom on how to legally codify the definition of
> marriage. Pray that it will be according to Biblical principles. With any
>
> forces insisting on variant definitions of marriage, pray that God's Word
>
> and His standards will be honored by our government."
>
> Any good religious person believes prayer should be balanced by action.
> So
> here, in support of the Prayer Team's admirable goals, is a proposed
> Constitutional Amendment codifying marriage entirely on biblical
> principles:
>
> A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one man
>
> and one or more women.
> (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)
>
> B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition
>
> to his wife or wives.
> (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)
>
> C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If
> the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed.
> Deut 22:13-21)
>
> D. Marriage of a believer and a nonbeliever shall be forbidden.
> (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh
> 10:30)
>
> E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the
> constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be
> construed
> to permit divorce.
> (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
>
> F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the
> widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does
> not
> give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise
> punished in a manner to be determined by law.
> (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)
>
> G. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town, it
> is
> required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him (even if he
> had
> previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young and old), tag-teaming
>
> with any sisters you may have. Of course, this rule applies only if you
> are
> female.
> (Gen 19:31-36)
>
>
> Posted at Protestants for the Common Good
> "cgn@thecommongood.org

[Anonymous]

Sorry people, but the post about "church and state" is way way off.Did you know that this phrase was coined by one of our founding Fathers, a president,who was also moonlighting as public school director!And did you also know that this former president said there were two books that were "essential for students`successful education" one of these was, thats right folks, THE HOLY BIBLE! The separation of church and state was to keep government out of religion, not the misunderstood and distorted "interpretation" of today! Now you can have your agnostic(greek for ignorant)OPINION about this all you want, but you can`t change history and the FACTS! It was the pilgrims, seeking religious freedom from England who traveled across the sea, not the ACLU!And how did the person who posted the stuff about the bible know some dope would turn a nonthreatening comment into a bigoted post of "intolerence"? Because thats the plan of all you liberals, to turn anyone who speaks up about the "TRUTH" into a hateful homophobe! Its just history repeating itself,look at all the great nations that lost their way, like Rome, they crumbled! All in due time.

[Anonymous]

OH BOY - intent was not to fuel one of these debates!

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry, whick God the Creator were you talking about?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-23 05:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

" Sorry people, but the post about "church and state" is way way off.Did you know that this phrase was coined by one of our founding Fathers, a president,who was also moonlighting as public school director!And did you also know that this former president said there were two books that were "essential for students`successful education" one of these was, thats right folks, THE HOLY BIBLE! The separation of church and state was to keep government out of religion, not the misunderstood and distorted "interpretation" of today! Now you can have your agnostic(greek for ignorant)OPINION about this all you want, but you can`t change history and the FACTS! It was the pilgrims, seeking religious freedom from England who traveled across the sea, not the ACLU!And how did the person who posted the stuff about the bible know some dope would turn a nonthreatening comment into a bigoted post of "intolerence"? Because thats the plan of all you liberals, to turn anyone who speaks up about the "TRUTH" into a hateful homophobe! Its just history repeating itself,look at all the great nations that lost their way, like Rome, they crumbled! All in due time."

Simply this:
Hate and intolerance behind a cloak of God's name.

Simply this:
Your insistance that the "holy bible" is the "truth". For who? You?  
Freedom of religion implies the right to freedom FROM religion as well. The Bible has absolutely no standing in American law, and because it doesn't, no one, including you, has the right to impose rules anyone else simply because of something they percieve to be mandated by the Bible. If  sects of Buddhism, celebrate gay relationships freely, in a sense, their religious freedom is being infringed upon.

"separation of church and state"
This is not a debate about the origin of our laws. Regardless of origin, it exists, and protects you along with Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Pagan, Wicca, agnostics, etc. and allows you to practice the religion you choose to follow. It also prevents your children from being forced to practice any of the above religions in public schools.

An  interesting fact:
The words "under God" was inserted into the Pledge in 1954 at the height of paranoia about the godless communists. The pledge was writen by Baptist minister Frances Bellamy in 1892 and all references to religion were deliberately left out.  

I suppose this isn't much different... Your paranoia about homosexuals and the demise of our nation because of them holds no more validity than paranoia about communists in the 1950's.

The point. Your bible debate is mute. However, if you must bring the bible into this, I would love for you to respond in detail to Christy's post. Clearly you have no worthwhile arguement against it.

[tenacious1]

Congradulations Kathy!
WOW! i can't believe how much energy some people are willing to invest in getting their opinion across, justified, or validated.
i'm exhausted just reading it!
as for the gay thing, i've got NOTHING against it.
in fact, i have often said if i was a woman, i would certainly be a lesbian.
congrats again....wishing you and yours all the happiness!
ciao for now.
kb

[ottkat]

Thank you Kevin, Christy and the rest of you sending good wishes.  I appreciate them, and have conveyed them to my wife.

I just want to make a couple of quick comments about the origin of the Constitutional guarantee of separation of church and state.

First, there are two clauses to this segment of the Constitution (Article III): "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

These two clauses achieved two purposes, not one.  The first clause states the government will not come under the influence of any particular church or creed.  This was primarily a response to King George III being the head of the Church of England, which was supported by taxes at that time, and heavily influenced English state policy at that time.  In fact, when the colonies separated, there was an attempt by the Church of England to deprive the United States of any Bishops in the Apostle Peter's lineage (the laying on of hands).  The Episcopal Church in the United States is called that, and not the Church of the United States, because that lineage comes from the Episcopal Church of Scotland, which had severed itself from the Church of England at that time.

The second clause is drawn directly from the Virginia Declaration of Rights, which stated that one has the right to enjoy the "free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience."

The primary author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights was Thomas Jefferson, who, besides not being a Christian (he was a lifelong Deist, a fact easily provable from his papers), was also a Freemason, along with George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and a number of other signers of both the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution.

For anyone not schooled in the history of Freemasonry (admittedly not the most engrossing topic for most people; my interest derives from family history and my own studies in paganism), one of the required rituals of this time was designed to free one from the bounds of Christianity - the reciting of the Lord's Prayer backwards.  That, along with the swearing of oaths to old Roman and Greek Gods, and the keeping of the pentagram, took people pretty far afield from standard Christianity.

In this light, most Constitutional scholars conclude that Article III is therefore meant to provide for both views, that government would stay out of religion, and religion out of government.

By the way, if anyone wants my citations for this discussion, I will gladly post them.

Kathy

[Anonymous]

Sorry to see all you freaks so upset, I really am. Its great though because you show your ass in public.The biblical improvs by the Christy person are funny, even more so that most of you don`t even have a bible to check the accuracy.And I love the "hate" accusations, isn`t it you morons who have a fucking web site dedicated to "hate" count the posts and compare how many are filled with years old anger that goes nowhere and how many provide a solution, a way out of the self constructed prison of anger and resentment? All these years have past and you losers are still just as bitter if not more, HELLO, WAKE UP! thats the  past, cant change it. LIke I said futile! most of you will never grow out of this, aren`t some of you now approaching middle age? You all are a cult, you keep each other sick, you can try to deny it all you want but its a COSMIC LAW, when you have a resentment you actually chain yourself emotionally to the very person you wish to be free from.           ENJOY!