Author Topic: What if parents spent time in program?  (Read 2879 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline none-ya

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
What if parents spent time in program?
« on: May 31, 2013, 09:13:13 PM »
Whooter, it's to bad that you yourself never spent a day in a program yourself. In a violent rap at straight,or In the ring at elan or maybe the dog cages in Jamaica (WWASP). I doubt that your opinion would be so one sided. You're trying to change the minds of people who actually lived this insanity. Who's that working? Many converts?  Play a new tune please.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
?©?Ä~•@

Offline Whooter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Behrens Study vs. ASTART Debate thread
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2013, 09:33:26 PM »
Quote from: "none-ya"
Whooter, it's to bad that you yourself never spent a day in a program yourself.

None-ya, I understand that you were hurt by a program but from another perspective it is too bad that you never got to experience a child who was in need of help and the structure that a program provided to help your child.  Not sure if you are a father or not.


 
Quote
In a violent rap at straight,or In the ring at elan or maybe the dog cages in Jamaica (WWASP). I doubt that your opinion would be so one sided. You're trying to change the minds of people who actually lived this insanity. Who's that working? Many converts?  Play a new tune please.
I really do understand that many children were hurt by programs, none-ya, but you need to be able to see both sides (as I do) that some children did well and others did not.  You cant just go through life viewing it from just your one isolated perspective.  I never experienced it as a child and you never experienced it as a parent.  Step back and try to see both perspectives and try not to be so judgmental of others.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5602
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2013, 05:30:05 AM »
I too am interested in what would happen if parents, not specifically whooter, spent time in program and underwent many of the same things the kids did.  I'd wager they'd withdrawal themselves pretty quickly, but at what point would the treatment become unacceptable.  We know parents will subject themselves to seminars fairly similar to what the kids will, but what about raps?  What about the crazier aspects of the kids's  seminars?

I am interested to know from somebody like Whooter that if he (or she) were asked to wear a French maid outfit and perform a lap dance in the name of therapy, would he(or she) do it.  Any other examples people can think of?  Let's try and keep this thread clean and free of personal attacks, but I am interested in these hypotheticals.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Muppeteer

  • Guest
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2013, 07:31:58 AM »
If a parent recognizes that some kids are hurt by being sent to these Synanon-based thought reform camps, while other children get a positive outcome, is the parent basically accepting, and teaching their child, that it is okay for their child to climb upon the broken backs of others to reach the top? That the ends always justify the means?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whooter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2013, 02:28:43 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
I too am interested in what would happen if parents, not specifically whooter, spent time in program and underwent many of the same things the kids did.  I'd wager they'd withdrawal themselves pretty quickly, but at what point would the treatment become unacceptable.  We know parents will subject themselves to seminars fairly similar to what the kids will, but what about raps?  What about the crazier aspects of the kids's  seminars?

If the parents recognized that they needed the therapy for their marriage or for work/career etc. I think many would work through the program and try to improve themselves.  Many others would flee when things got tough.  Kids on the other hand dont have the option of just picking up and going home so they are forced to complete the program through to graduation.  When kids turn 18 they are free to decide for themselves.

Quote from: "psy"
I am interested to know from somebody like Whooter that if he (or she) were asked to wear a French maid outfit and perform a lap dance in the name of therapy, would he(or she) do it.  Any other examples people can think of?  Let's try and keep this thread clean and free of personal attacks, but I am interested in these hypotheticals.

It would be bad for business.  If they forced me to do that and I walked out wearing it most of the people would leave.  Even staff would resign.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Oscar

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1545
  • Karma: +4/-0
    • View Profile
    • Secret Prisons for Teens
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2013, 05:35:22 PM »
The parents would attract too much attention because they are the one who need the therapy most of all. In Denmark Season 3 of a program using wilderness therapy on teenagers who want the therapy so they can learn how to become independent and move out of their parentís house the mothers were invited.

The result was that the therapist saw that the girlís progresses were halted by the presence of the parents. Parents tend to use something we call "Curling effect". They fall into a kind of pattern where they make excuses for their children because they can see what they created. Some parents do the homework of their children. Some drive across the country to secure that there is food on the table despite the fact that the teenager can do without the parents.

Here is a link to season 2 of the TV-series. It is not Brat Camp. It is actually teenagers with top-grades. Our society produces adults based on the social status of their parents only. You can measure the success of a Danish child based on the economy and level of education by the parents. Danish social workers know the children they will be working with as soon as the child is only 2 years old.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5602
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2013, 05:57:03 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "psy"
I am interested to know from somebody like Whooter that if he (or she) were asked to wear a French maid outfit and perform a lap dance in the name of therapy, would he(or she) do it.  Any other examples people can think of?  Let's try and keep this thread clean and free of personal attacks, but I am interested in these hypotheticals.

It would be bad for business.  If they forced me to do that and I walked out wearing it most of the people would leave.  Even staff would resign.
Actually.  I chose that example for a reason. Crossdressing is just one exercise out of many from WWASP's parent seminars.  Yet parents put up with it.  Voluntarily even.  Why?

Quote
WHY I DIDNíT WALK OUT

Somehow the situation had overcome my usual objections to this type of process. I was in a vulnerable position emotionally because of the long-term crises that we had experienced with our daughter. In the past several hours, I had felt myself carried along by a powerful and charismatic speaker; I was experiencing an overload from the amount of information given and speed of delivery. I didnít have time to emotionally and rationally process what was happening. The confrontation by Don had put me into a state of emotional shock and made feel personally threatened and afraid.

My defenses were down because I was already trusting of Teen Help and expected something different. I felt an urgency to stay and participate in the seminar, because I had been persuaded to believe that my daughterís life depended upon it. I had been told if I didnít attend, our family could not participate in the Parent/Child Seminars that were vital to our daughterís reintegration into our family. I wanted my daughter to come home and I wanted help with the reintegration processes from the program that best understood what she had been through. That was one of the main reasons I was at the Seminar.

Besides, I had already made a significant investment of money, time and energy in this program and my reputation was on the line. If I objected and walked out now, I would have to explain to the newspaper reporter who had interviewed me a few days before why I had done it.

I had referred three people to Teen Help and wanted to believe I had done the right thing. No one likes to feel they have made a mistake and endorsed a company they will later wish they hadnít. I had trusted Teen Help and the results I was seeing with my daughterís progress in the program. I would not have referred families to this program if I had had any doubts.

Besides, I owed R & D Billing, the billing company for Tranquility Bay and Teen Help, a sizeable amount of money and I was paying them off for my daughters care with referrals to the Teen Help was in a financially vulnerable situation and felt an obligation to protect the programís best interests.

All of these reasons contributed to my decision to stay and take the Silent Vow. These were certainly not normal circumstances and I was not behaving in a manner consistent with my normal behavior. I did not, however think all of this through at the time. Rather, I was swept along in an experience that seemed to be accelerating in pace and unusualness. I also assumed that things would eventually explain themselves and that I was through the worst part of the seminar.

Read the full thing here.

Many program parents do, in fact, go through LGAT seminars similar to LifeSteps, Propheets, WWASP's discovery seminars, and others.  They're usually not quite so severe, but i'm interested to know, Whooter, if after reading that, you would tolerate what those parents did?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Whooter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2013, 07:31:00 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "psy"
I am interested to know from somebody like Whooter that if he (or she) were asked to wear a French maid outfit and perform a lap dance in the name of therapy, would he(or she) do it.  Any other examples people can think of?  Let's try and keep this thread clean and free of personal attacks, but I am interested in these hypotheticals.

It would be bad for business.  If they forced me to do that and I walked out wearing it most of the people would leave.  Even staff would resign.
Actually.  I chose that example for a reason. Crossdressing is just one exercise out of many from WWASP's parent seminars.  Yet parents put up with it.  Voluntarily even.  Why?

Quote
WHY I DIDNíT WALK OUT

Somehow the situation had overcome my usual objections to this type of process. I was in a vulnerable position emotionally because of the long-term crises that we had experienced with our daughter. In the past several hours, I had felt myself carried along by a powerful and charismatic speaker; I was experiencing an overload from the amount of information given and speed of delivery. I didnít have time to emotionally and rationally process what was happening. The confrontation by Don had put me into a state of emotional shock and made feel personally threatened and afraid.

My defenses were down because I was already trusting of Teen Help and expected something different. I felt an urgency to stay and participate in the seminar, because I had been persuaded to believe that my daughterís life depended upon it. I had been told if I didnít attend, our family could not participate in the Parent/Child Seminars that were vital to our daughterís reintegration into our family. I wanted my daughter to come home and I wanted help with the reintegration processes from the program that best understood what she had been through. That was one of the main reasons I was at the Seminar.

Besides, I had already made a significant investment of money, time and energy in this program and my reputation was on the line. If I objected and walked out now, I would have to explain to the newspaper reporter who had interviewed me a few days before why I had done it.

I had referred three people to Teen Help and wanted to believe I had done the right thing. No one likes to feel they have made a mistake and endorsed a company they will later wish they hadnít. I had trusted Teen Help and the results I was seeing with my daughterís progress in the program. I would not have referred families to this program if I had had any doubts.

Besides, I owed R & D Billing, the billing company for Tranquility Bay and Teen Help, a sizeable amount of money and I was paying them off for my daughters care with referrals to the Teen Help was in a financially vulnerable situation and felt an obligation to protect the programís best interests.

All of these reasons contributed to my decision to stay and take the Silent Vow. These were certainly not normal circumstances and I was not behaving in a manner consistent with my normal behavior. I did not, however think all of this through at the time. Rather, I was swept along in an experience that seemed to be accelerating in pace and unusualness. I also assumed that things would eventually explain themselves and that I was through the worst part of the seminar.

Read the full thing here.

Many program parents do, in fact, go through LGAT seminars similar to LifeSteps, Propheets, WWASP's discovery seminars, and others.  They're usually not quite so severe, but i'm interested to know, Whooter, if after reading that, you would tolerate what those parents did?

I would not tolerate that.  I don't think it is necessary to bully or belittle people.  I had a family member who attended a seminar called EST in the early 80's, it was a 2 weekend 60 hour course and just listening to what the people had to go through, no bathroom breaks etc. it wouldn't be for me.  I was invited in during the last hour and people seemed like they were on drugs.  A lot of money for getting high in my opinion.  It wore off in a couple of weeks and all was forgotten.  Probably a good exercise in human behavior.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline none-ya

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 01:02:09 AM »
I had a boss who spent big $$$ to do the EST thing. It never did any damn good. But he would never admit he wasted his money
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
?©?Ä~•@

Offline Che Gookin

  • Global Moderator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
  • Karma: +11/-3
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 04:04:29 AM »
Quote from: "psy"
I too am interested in what would happen if parents, not specifically whooter, spent time in program and underwent many of the same things the kids did.  I'd wager they'd withdrawal themselves pretty quickly, but at what point would the treatment become unacceptable.  We know parents will subject themselves to seminars fairly similar to what the kids will, but what about raps?  What about the crazier aspects of the kids's  seminars?

I am interested to know from somebody like Whooter that if he (or she) were asked to wear a French maid outfit and perform a lap dance in the name of therapy, would he(or she) do it.  Any other examples people can think of?  Let's try and keep this thread clean and free of personal attacks, but I am interested in these hypotheticals.

Or perhaps it would be used as a means of legitimizing certain politically connected companies who claim to offer "safe and non-abusive" treatment alternatives. Emphasis on the quotes should be seen as sarcasm.

As another way of looking at it, the Sue Scheff El Switcheroo. Her vocal opposition to WWASP being used as a front to pitch her hand picked programs that reportedly give/gave her a fee for referring kids to them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Che Gookin

  • Global Moderator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
  • Karma: +11/-3
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 04:05:56 AM »
Quote from: "none-ya"
I had a boss who spent big $$$ to do the EST thing. It never did any damn good. But he would never admit he wasted his money

I've always been bizarrely curious about the whole EST thing. Just too cheap to drop the money to go see it for myself, not sure I could sit still without dropping my pants and mooning the facilitator either.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5602
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2013, 05:34:38 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
I would not tolerate that.  I don't think it is necessary to bully or belittle people.

So you agree that these seminars, as they are used in today's programs, are wrong?  For both parents and kids?  You consider this bullying -- belittling...  abusive?

Quote
I had a family member who attended a seminar called EST in the early 80's, it was a 2 weekend 60 hour course and just listening to what the people had to go through, no bathroom breaks etc. it wouldn't be for me.

I've had it verified from CEDU staff (Penelope Valentine, for one), that est and lifeSpring were primary influences in CEDU's Propheets, which form the basis for Aspen's LifeSteps.  Would you say that this entire experiment with LGATs was a mistake?

Quote
It wore off in a couple of weeks and all was forgotten. Probably a good exercise in human behavior.

Indeed the intended effects do wear off, but not always the unintended effects.  Margaret T. Singer (not Sanger) and others called these "casualties".  Just to quote "the Lieberman and Yalom studies (19xx) of encounter groups indicated that "the people who experienced negative results in combination with the psychological casualties constituted about 19% ... or for close to one out of five people who participated in these group experiences, the results were harmful""  Given that evidence and the fact both est's successor, Landmark Education and LifeSpring both to my knowledge recommend adults with psychological trauma or difficulty not go through their seminars, do you really think it's a good idea to be putting vulnerable kids who very likely may have psychological issues, through the very same thing (often far worse)?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Whooter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2013, 01:16:34 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I would not tolerate that.  I don't think it is necessary to bully or belittle people.

So you agree that these seminars, as they are used in today's programs, are wrong?  For both parents and kids?  You consider this bullying -- belittling...  abusive?

Quote
I had a family member who attended a seminar called EST in the early 80's, it was a 2 weekend 60 hour course and just listening to what the people had to go through, no bathroom breaks etc. it wouldn't be for me.

I've had it verified from CEDU staff (Penelope Valentine, for one), that est and lifeSpring were primary influences in CEDU's Propheets, which form the basis for Aspen's LifeSteps.  Would you say that this entire experiment with LGATs was a mistake?

Quote
It wore off in a couple of weeks and all was forgotten. Probably a good exercise in human behavior.

Indeed the intended effects do wear off, but not always the unintended effects.  Margaret T. Singer (not Sanger) and others called these "casualties".  Just to quote "the Lieberman and Yalom studies (19xx) of encounter groups indicated that "the people who experienced negative results in combination with the psychological casualties constituted about 19% ... or for close to one out of five people who participated in these group experiences, the results were harmful""  Given that evidence and the fact both est's successor, Landmark Education and LifeSpring both to my knowledge recommend adults with psychological trauma or difficulty not go through their seminars, do you really think it's a good idea to be putting vulnerable kids who very likely may have psychological issues, through the very same thing (often far worse)?

The present models may have developed from the past, EST, for example but it doesn't mean that they are abusive.  My daughter never had to dress up in a french maids outfit nor was she belittled.  We need to identify and weed out the abusive programs and have them change their tactics or shut them down for their abuse if they are still operating.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline blombrowski

  • Posts: 135
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2013, 01:45:32 PM »
LGATs are not indicated for individuals with a trauma history (and in fact are likely harmful and counterindicated).  Many but not all programs utilize LGATs.  Many but not all youth who are referred to programs have a history of trauma.

Youth are exposed to LGATs well before it is conceivable that a thorough evaluation can be done to assess if they do in fact have a significant trauma history.  I know you put a lot of faith in third-party referrals, and the ability of a good ethical educational consultant to make this determination.  I don't think that the educational consultant system nor the evaluative (i.e. wilderness program) system is fined tune enough to distinguish between behavior that has trauma that has a root cause, and behavior that does not.

What I think is reasonable to ask of the industry, is to either take the LGAT out of their toolbox or to make damn sure that they're not applying this tool to the wrong person.  For those programs that are dependent upon LGATs as a significant piece of their intervention, this will hurt their bottom line.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5602
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2013, 03:24:19 PM »
So when your daughter was in ASR, she didn't go through LifeSteps?  When was she in ASR?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)