Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

[Anonymous]

Why is it that people find the need to slam others because their view on the subject of WWASP is different than WWASP parents?  I read the post of slamming Deborah's view because she posts links and you dis-like the fact that she possibly has no first hand experience with WWASP.  When first-hand experience is spoken you find a way to slam that as well because the experience is different than what you believe.

My suggestion is WWASP has it's private board for postings of possitive feedback only.....if that is what you are looking for stick to it.  If you are interested in understanding things that really happen and are true experiences take it in vs. judging it and use the tools you supposidly learned in your training to change it.

Through the 3 year experience I had with the program.....seminars....staffing.... I have seen so many WWASP parents bashing those that have a different view....a dime a dozen.... also remember for those of you not willing to see the down side of things from true experiences that is your choice as you so like to speak of choices rather than truly looking at yourself.  Practice what you preach or don't preach it.

Before you start typing your post away to justify your belief and try to slam my post....perhaps you should take time to reflect back on your seminars as to what you have learned in your own personal growth and come away with a new understanding of all people vs. WWASP views. :nworthy:

[Deborah]

I imagine it's part of the training:
http://www.caic.org.au/psyther/lifespring/pathology.htm

The trainer used a variety of techniques to neutralize comments which challenged or qualified the point being made and maintained sufficient control over audience responses to assure that defiance and critical thinking were not publicly rewarded. The use of confusing "double talk" was particularly effective in disarming those who threatened to delegitimize the trainer's position. Statements such as "What you think isn't is, and what you think is isn't," or "Well, what is the answer?" were perplexing enough to cause the participant to fatter in uncertainty. The suggestion that the participant was disturbed, confused, "avoiding," or "game-playing" were other tactics used to discredit objecting participants.

As the training progressed, participants, become increasingly reliant upon the trainer to interpret reality. Defenses and the capacity for critical reasoning were undermined by both the structure of the training and the responses of the leader. Typically, a didactic session followed each experiential exercise, providing an interpretive framework for the feelings evoked. The trainer provided attributions for the heightened arousal which was generated by the exercise.

[Anonymous]

So basically, this kind of training is designed to evoke a **desired** response.  Sounds like coercive thought control, to me.  Second, the training appears to radically "change" the participants reality testing skills (what is, isn't and what isn't is).

My question is how long does it take for the effects of this kind of training to wear off?  

 :eek:

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-09 04:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Why is it that people find the need to slam others because their view on the subject of WWASP is different than WWASP parents?  I read the post of slamming Deborah's view because she posts links and you dis-like the fact that she possibly has no first hand experience with WWASP.  When first-hand experience is spoken you find a way to slam that as well because the experience is different than what you believe.



My suggestion is WWASP has it's private board for postings of possitive feedback only.....if that is what you are looking for stick to it.  If you are interested in understanding things that really happen and are true experiences take it in vs. judging it and use the tools you supposidly learned in your training to change it.



Through the 3 year experience I had with the program.....seminars....staffing.... I have seen so many WWASP parents bashing those that have a different view....a dime a dozen.... also remember for those of you not willing to see the down side of things from true experiences that is your choice as you so like to speak of choices rather than truly looking at yourself.  Practice what you preach or don't preach it.



Before you start typing your post away to justify your belief and try to slam my post....perhaps you should take time to reflect back on your seminars as to what you have learned in your own personal growth and come away with a new understanding of all people vs. WWASP views. :nworthy: "

Your experiences are worth debating, but why debate?  You have a personal history with wwasps and I personally don't think I said I don't agree nor disagree, it is what it is.  I just see another way of looking at it.  You are having difficulties with your daughter now and blame wwasps.  That's your right and I will also ask you to look at your own seminar/program experience and look at getting help somewhere for YOU and take care of yourself.  You've given your daughter the okay to run your emotions and life.  You've given yourself permission to be a victim of both your daughter's choices and staff at the program from what I've read. Is that working for you?  There's a payoff in this, think about it. Is this choice create an inspiring future or keep you stuck in the past?  Sorry, I forgot, this is a debate, not a group session.  Nevermind.  

If you were on the BBS, then you know that it is not always positive, but it is respectful feedback. I do respect your feelings because they are your feelings, not something posted from links or articles.  :wink:

[Anonymous]

What's wrong with Deborah providing links to information relevant to these issues? Different strokes for different folks, Anon.  Personally, I followed some of those links and emerged from the experience with a better understanding of some rather complex issues that DO impact the way children are treated and cared for while in the custody of a specialty school or program.  That's a good thing, IMHO, unless one's critical thinking skills are so impaired, they actually believe the world revolves around their program-of-choice.

To the Ex-Program Parent:

I am interested in your perspective and appreciate your posts.  Whatever choices you made on behalf of yourself and your child, were made with the best of intentions.  What better way to examine the pros and cons of these programs than to present BOTH sides of the coin?  The program parents who are trying to convert your dissent into a personal attack, should back off or risk being viewed as BULLIES.

 :wave:

[Anonymous]

" What's wrong with Deborah providing links to information relevant to these issues? Different strokes for different folks, Anon. Personally, I followed some of those links and emerged from the experience with a better understanding of some rather complex issues that DO impact the way children are treated and cared for while in the custody of a specialty school or program. That's a good thing, IMHO, unless one's critical thinking skills are so impaired, they actually believe the world revolves around their program-of-choice."

**********

Exactly my point here.  These links do not have anything to do with wwasps seminars.  Yes, they provide some of the same personal growth opportunities, but it is NOT the same thing, so it really is diverting readers to something else.  It brings in a lot of assumptions.

I will say this again.  If you want to debate the seminars - go to the seminars.

[Anonymous]

Let's get back to a serious respectful debate. please.

[Anonymous]

No, Anon.  The information in the study done on Lifespring by Dr. Haaken is right on the mark. What you don't seem to understand is the WWASPS seminars have their roots in the human potential movement where Gilcrease apparently got his early training with Lifespring.

Deborah, somewhere in the archives is a post about these seminars being introduced to the public school system in Washington State.  Can you help me find it?  As I recall, there was considerable debate about whether this was a good or bad thing to subject young minds to.

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Is there a problem with human potential?  I agree that human potential/personal growth seminars are evolving, getting better.  Each seminar I staffed had some things the same, and some had changed.  It is ever changing, so how can you lump what wwasps provides with what is specific to others?  

There are many, many, many books written for self improvement, personal growth, healing that could be said to be based on the same roots.  The bookstores and libraries are full of them.  

There's a new show on tv called "Starting Over" and that could be modeled from seminars - getting out of your comfort zone and try new things.  

Gary Zukov, Deepak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Debbie Ford, and MANY others are here to help us live a more fulfilled life.

Vision Quests, Personal Growth seminars both personally and in the workplace are becoming the norm.

Discover Days are throughout our middle schools to help kids understand what teasing each other can create.

Self-esteem and prevention programs are also becoming mainstream.

What have I missed...

[Anonymous]

It's not Discover Days, sorry.  It's called Challenge Days: http://www.challengeday.org/

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-09 09:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"It's not Discover Days, sorry.  It's called Challenge Days: http://www.challengeday.org/"

This was the group involved in bringing (sponsoring?) these seminars to the public schools in Washington State, I believe in affiliation with Challenge Days.  Really NEED that news article about the success (NOT) of that endeavor. Still searching.

http://www.nwfamilyvisions.org/whoweare ... nformation

 :wave:

[Anonymous]

What B.S.  These folks are multi-millionaires capitalizing on a trend in America to raise a better, more efficient child.  Remember Dr. Spock?  People thought raising their kids the SPOCK way was the answer to producing happy, well-adjusted kids.  Well, apparently not. We are those kids raising kids ourselves now, in institutionalized-style programs.  Welcome to the brave new world of MAGICAL ADULTS and CHILDREN.

 ::puke::

[Anonymous]

[/quote]



Your experiences are worth debating, but why debate?  You have a personal history with wwasps and I personally don't think I said I don't agree nor disagree, it is what it is.  I just see another way of looking at it.  You are having difficulties with your daughter now and blame wwasps.  That's your right and I will also ask you to look at your own seminar/program experience and look at getting help somewhere for YOU and take care of yourself.  You've given your daughter the okay to run your emotions and life.  You've given yourself permission to be a victim of both your daughter's choices and staff at the program from what I've read. Is that working for you?  There's a payoff in this, think about it. Is this choice create an inspiring future or keep you stuck in the past?  Sorry, I forgot, this is a debate, not a group session.  Nevermind.  



If you were on the BBS, then you know that it is not always positive, but it is respectful feedback. I do respect your feelings because they are your feelings, not something posted from links or articles.  :wink:





      "
[/quote]

You are making assumptions that I am stuck in my daughters choices and emotions.  You are also assuming I am blaming the program for her choices today......I do not believe that I stated that perhaps that is your choice as justification of the program....doesn't really concern me.  I also have not potrayed as being a vitim to the program nor to my daughters choices.  I simply have stated what my experience has been within the program.  As for moving on with my life....again another assumption you are making that I have not.  

Point being to what I have been talking about is.... The number one thing that WWASP teaches to others is to be accountable however it has been my findings through others experience an my own that they do not practice that they only preach it.

[Deborah]

Is this the article you're looking for?

http://www.rickross.com/reference/gener ... al440.html

Gilcrease said the new approach offers "a huge potential growth area" for his $2 million-a-year company, but the motivation isn't financial.

"We make pretty good money. I don't need money. We want to make a difference. We've got some serious problems here," Gilcrease said.
****************

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&0
The expansion shows how deep the need is for these kinds of facilities, he said, adding that the schools are doing the Lord's work at a time when America's moral fabric is fraying and its families are under increasing stress.
Lichfield added: "Do I believe that God is interested in finding a way for them to get help? I do. Do I believe that Satan is interested in thwarting it? I do."
*****

The engineer and used car salesman team up to fix the country's problems- teenagers. How lovely. Has Litchfield been through the seminars, or did they employ Gilcrease because he was convenient- officed in the same building?


[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-01-09 10:22 ]

[Anonymous]

Dr. Spock seemed to have forgotten a big part of this.  THE WHOLE FAMILY!  Now, there are so many others that know how important each family is in this.

I'm not sure if all these folks are multi-millionaires, but so what?  There knowledge is worth it to me.

Others that are here to help us live more fulfilling lives:  Stephen Covey, John Bradshaw, Eckhart Tolle, Suze Orman, Og Mandino, Tony Robbins, Margaret Wheatley, Jack Canfield, Byron Katie, Susan Jeffers, Iyanla Vanzant