Author Topic: Apologia - Serious debate only, please!  (Read 34287 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #225 on: January 08, 2004, 10:01:00 PM »
From Deborah: Further, if these facilities are not mental health facilties, then how are parents being reimbursed? Insurance companies don't pay for traditional boarding schools or tough-love intervention.


Just a quickie - on my way out.

Parents are not reimbursed by the insurance companies except for therapy.  They are not reimbursed for tuition, I know, I tried for months.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #226 on: January 08, 2004, 10:02:00 PM »
***Wow, lots on this board today about fear!***

Could you stop analyzing everyone else and professing your arrogant and erroneous misinterpretations. In all of your personal growth, did you ever come across the "I" statement theory? How bout sticking to what you know- how YOU feel? If you know.

There frequently are no "resolutions" in debates particularly around politics, religion, and the teen warehousing industry. Did you ever ask Gilcrest where he got his training, or what therapeutic philosophy he used? If you were selecting a therapist would you ask with philosophy they used in their counseling? Behind every personal growth process is some philosophy.

Dr. Phil, bless his heart, get's you to "think for yourself". Come on. One can adopt his thinking if they choose, but there's hardly any new thoughts/thinking out there. Just different (new) spins. I like some of what he has to say, but he is a zealot with tons of repressed anger, imho.

I'm not looking for the dark side. I have close acquaintances who are all into est/LS. They're basically good people. The point of this debate is that parents should be informed about the mode of therapy they are going to be subjected to and given the choice, before they sign the checks and make a committment to the program. Once you're in, you don't just ask for a refund and walk away, according to ex-parents.

I don't believe it's human nature to resist change. I do think people resist control- a survival instinct. I have seen change happen miraculously when a person is treated with respect. I actually think there is a knawing need and desire toward cooperation inherent in all of us. I still find it hard to cooperate with a control freak. But, if that control freak had me locked away, drilling me on a daily basis, I'd probably subcumb- another survival instinct.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #227 on: January 08, 2004, 11:40:00 PM »
"How bout sticking to what you know- how YOU feel? If you know." excerpt from Deborah's post.
**************
Deb, Observation, it's not meant in any other way. I really don't see you sticking to what you know.  I see you quoting from links, providing links, but not much of your own personal experiences.  You know people, you've heard of people, someone told you, you read about...

You are adept at finding resources, great.  Please don't attack those of us that share personal thoughts and experiences.   :wink:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #228 on: January 08, 2004, 11:42:00 PM »
So little traditional therapy? Here's Wikipedia's summary- A blending of techniques- Magdalen Asylums, Military Academies, and methods similar to religous cults.

http://www.ezresult.com/article/World_W ... nd_Schools

The techniques used in WWASP programs are a mixture of methods used by military schools, churches and religious cults. For example, the rule of strict silence has been used by Magdalen Asylums, operated in Ireland by the Catholic church until 1996. Young women were placed in such asylums for offenses ranging from prostitution to "provocative" behavior, and some of them remained there for their whole life. Even adult women had to address the nuns as "mother" (similar to WWASP's rule of addressing the staff representative as "Mum" or "Dad"), and they were referred to as "children" or "girls", regardless of age. Sexuality was strictly controlled and punished when expressed in any consensual way. However, Magdalen Asylums openly used corporal punishment, and kept occupants busy with "hard work" (usually in washeries).

Degradation and humiliation are commonly employed in military academies, with the goal often being the complete destruction of the students' personalities and their transformation into "killing machines." Power structures are of utmost importance in a military context. Corporal punishment has become uncommon, especially against adults, but can be substituted by making the group pay for a single individual's behavior (which then often leads to physical revenge against that individual by the group).

The bombardment with videos and "reflections" is similar to the methods used by many religious cults to dominate the minds of their followers, the goal being the inculcation of the cult ideology. To this end, family members are frequently excluded from interacting with their loved ones, unless they themselves join the new "family", that is, the cult. Many cults have referred to themselves as families or as children (see, e.g., Children of God). Cults frequently employ systems of levels within which members can advance, the most complex one perhaps being used by Scientology. Like WWASP, many cults are notorious for litigating against critics.

According to critics of recovered memory therapy, patients in such therapy sessions are told that they are in "denial" until they acknowledge that sexual or ritual abuse has happened; similarly, relatives who are charged with the abuse are also in "denial" until they acknowledge its reality. This is comparable to the use of the word "manipulative" in WWASP programs -- students are "manipulative" whenever they say or write something which the staff disagrees with.

Critics like Richard Ofshe have claimed that RMT patients are frequently assigned to self-helf groups which are often used to re-affirm their belief system, and that these grow into a replacement "family" (because the original family is believed to have been responsible for severe abuse). While the goal of WWASP is to ultimately return children to their families, for the period of their stay, students will have to accept staff as their family. The WWASP "therapy" sessions, too, have the goal of re-affirming the WWASP ideology and the belief of students in their mistakes (with denial being punished, sometimes physically).

While society has generally learned to accept masturbation as a common form of human sexual behavior and a natural part of a child's sexual development, it is not atypical for modern closed facilities to engage in strict control of the practice. Many United States prisons forbid it entirely. This strict control of sexual pleasure is frequently justified as necessary to ensure that the inmates are properly punished and do not enjoy their stay. However, especially in children, it is known to have the effect of strengthening or creating associations of sex with shamefulness, which will likely result in sexual problems in later life. Given that some children stay over a period of years in WWASP programs, these effects should not be underestimated.

Claims that programs like WWASP help teens to overcome "defiance" have to be viewed in light of psychological research that increasingly views bonding as essential for the development of positive relationships; bonding, of course, is a two-way-process. Many children admitted to WWASP come from divorced families where the bonding process has been disrupted. Child neglect and lack of physical affection are both known risk factors for problematic behavior such as drug use.

If the testimony cited above is accurate, the physical and psychological abuse described would result in severe trauma in many cases (leading in turn to symptoms like depression, nightmares, stress, and self-injury). It depends on the degree of prior bonding with the parents whether such trauma is projected onto WWASP, onto the parents, or self-projected. In any case, these traumatic effects will likely not surface immediately.

Articles about WWASP often quote parents who are very satisfied customers. This can be explained in part with the acknowledged theory of cognitive dissonance; the programs are very expensive, and if they are viewed as a failure later, the parents would have to acknowledge their own mistake, and worse, that they spent thousands of dollars to fund a program that ultimately harmed their children. Such acknowledgment will be viewed as emotionally unappealing, so reasons will be sought for upholding the belief that the program was indeed useful.

Furthermore, as noted above, any negative effects of the programs are likely to become visible over a period of years, and the immediate effect may very well be increased obedience. Many of the same arguments that are used in the debate about spanking can be applied here: Even many of the most fierce opponents of the practice acknowledge that it may often accomplish the desired result of obedience, but claim that the immediate physical harm and the long-term psychological harm far outweigh this perceived benefit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #229 on: January 08, 2004, 11:55:00 PM »
Say what you will about Deborah, the lady is nothing if not extremely well-informed. Personally, I wonder if that is not what irks program parents more so than her lack of first-hand experience with their program-of-choice.

Keep up the good work Deborah! Children's thoughts and feelings are not the property of their parents.  These programs are full of kids who can not even use the latrine without permission and/or someone watching.  Now really, what could be more controlling than depriving a grown child of the right to decide for themselves when they can go potty, nevermind allowing them to do so in privacy.  

Just pitiful, is all I can say.

 :sad:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #230 on: January 09, 2004, 12:01:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-01-08 20:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Say what you will about Deborah, the lady is nothing if not extremely well-informed. Personally, I wonder if that is not what irks program parents more so than her lack of first-hand experience with their program-of-choice.



Keep up the good work Deborah! Children's thoughts and feelings are not the property of their parents.  These programs are full of kids who can not even use the latrine without permission and/or someone watching.  Now really, what could be more controlling than depriving a grown child of the right to decide for themselves when they can go potty, nevermind allowing them to do so in privacy.  



Just pitiful, is all I can say.



 :sad:  "


Is this coming from a person that doesn't have first hand experience either?  Must be, that comment about the potty and privacy is "crap."  PUN.

I was wondering how long it would take for today's topics to turn ugly.  So much for serious debate!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #231 on: January 09, 2004, 12:04:00 AM »
Deborah - OMG!  That would scare the hell out of me if I didn't know better!  Where DO you find this stuff? The author even states, "if this were true..."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #232 on: January 09, 2004, 12:30:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-01-08 18:36:00, Deborah wrote:

"***I don't think Specialty Boarding Schools are considered Mental Health or Health Care industry, If they were in those industries they would be at least three times the price of what most current tuitions.***



I'm wondering now if you've really been brainwashed or have just failed to educate yourself, or for some reason would like to put a false spin on reality. Of course, SBS, TBS, RTC are part of the Mental Health Industry. The ones who have FT "professionals" on staff ARE expensive. And as critics claim, the less expensive ones are so because they don't hire FT "professionals". Further, if these facilities are not mental health facilties, then how are parents being reimbursed? Insurance companies don't pay for traditional boarding schools or tough-love intervention.



http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe02.html

Excerpts:

The difference between a Residential Treatment Center, for example, and an Emotional Growth School depends on the different emphases each places on the use of Psychiatry, Therapy, Structure (he used the term Milieu), Education, and Recreation. For example, a Residential Treatment Center will emphasize Psychiatry, Therapy and Therapeutic Structure in its program, with only minor elements of Recreation and Education. On the other hand, an Emotional Growth School is basically a mirror image of a RTC, in that the emphasis is on Structure, Education, and Recreation/activity, with only a minor role being played by Therapy and Psychiatry.



Many at that time felt that by applying scientific techniques from the medical community to mental health problems, they were on the verge of creating a miracle, that is, a society with a definitive solution to age-old behavior and emotional problems. This dream, plus amazing profits, was the driving force behind a major building boom in the seventies by hospitals and other facilities to treat all kinds of mental health conditions for young people through such institutions as youth psychiatric hospitals and wards, drug treatment programs and Residential Treatment Centers. Yet, 30 years later, reeling from accusations of ?warehousing,? ?outrageous costs,? and frequent ?lack-luster outcomes,? the mental health industry is seeing major changes. What happened?



Even in 1969, there was a considerable backlash to the direction the mental health establishment was going. Calling the prevalent mental health approach ?insensitive to our humanness,? and ?an out-of-balance extreme use of the scientific method,? a large number of alternatives were developed in the sixties and seventies challenging the prevailing ?scientific mental health? philosophy. Created mostly by lay people, movements such as AA, Synonon, Christian counseling, est and many more strove to prove that the factors of relationships, spirituality, adult role models and emotional maturity, the things discounted by mental health clinicians of the time, were really the most important keys to healing.



http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe05.html

THE MARATHON WORKSHOP and its value as a counseling tool in emotional growth schools

Where did these workshops come from? From creative minds. They came from often controversial influences and beginnings ? Synanon, Lifespring, est, ? out of the ?60?s ? and from many of the earliest creative innovators in the mental health field.



http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een02.html

The article traced Tranquility Bay?s TASK seminars back through Lifespring, est, to the Spanish Inquisition, the anti-Papist trials, and Chinese thought control or ?reeducation.? As you might imagine, the general tone is hostile.





"

 ::spam::  Lets try to keep the post shorter, a simple link would work.

Anyways Specialty Boarding Schools was mentioned not Treatment Centers, Boarding Schools are not considered Mental Health, that is why insurance will not cover them. Deborah, you seem to be the expert, I would love to see your credentials? Or even work experince could be helpful. :grin:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #233 on: January 09, 2004, 12:37:00 AM »
Observation my eye. It was an indirect communication designed to persuade some to view criticism as fear/manipulation. This is precisely the crap used on kids in programs everyday. The poster has labled critical information as fearful, and now you accuse me attacking parents sharing their stories? Go figure. I can't follow that logic... perhaps because it's not logical.

Refering to Webster, to KNOW:
1 a (1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of (3) : to recognize the nature of : DISCERN b (1) : to recognize as being the same as something previously known (2) : to be acquainted or familiar with (3) : to have experience of

2 a : to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b : to have a practical understanding of

How many of you absolutely KNOW (def #1) how your child was treating on a daily basis? Really know. Do you ever wonder?
It doesn't appear that those posting here KNOW much about the BM techniques/methods/philosophy (whatever you choose to call the "treatment") used in the programs or seminars.
 
The poster might have shared how s/he was feeling, not presume to KNOW what others are feeling. Is that part of the confrontational approach?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #234 on: January 09, 2004, 12:39:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-01-08 15:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"This has gone from "abuse" to belittling parents for sharing what has worked for them.  Are you pissed because your son's program didn't offer a way to offset the tuition? What is your purpose, if I may ask?



Your post is amusing.  "


Bravo, Bravo, Bravo!!! :nworthy: I think you just sumed up all of the critical disgruntled parents with a perfect definition



Hey blame the program, I am sure that you anti-program people are very responsible and take accountability for all your other mistakes.
 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #235 on: January 09, 2004, 12:41:00 AM »
See page 34 of 66.  Level One.  Must be with a staff member at all times.  Unless I am mistaken, I presume that means 24/7 and would include not being allowed to go to the bathroom without permission and supervision.  But really, please correct me if I am wrong.  Meanwhile, I will search the Internet again for some kind of parent manual from another bm program.  This was just the first one that came up in my search.

http://www.adolescentspecialtyschools.c ... itybay.pdf

Deborah: FYI, you might find this interesting reading @ the Seminars and Emotional Growth curriculum.  Personally, I got a headache reading this stuff.  Way too detailed for my short attention span but definitly a real-eye-opener.

 :wave:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #236 on: January 09, 2004, 12:46:00 AM »
***The author even states, "if this were true..."***

I didn't see that. What I did see, in reference to the effects of this sort of "treatment", the author said, "if the testimony is accurate".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #237 on: January 09, 2004, 12:49:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-01-08 21:37:00, Deborah wrote:

"

Observation my eye. It was an indirect communication designed to persuade some to view criticism as fear/manipulation. This is precisely the crap used on kids in programs everyday. The poster has labled critical information as fearful, and now you accuse me attacking parents sharing their stories? Go figure. I can't follow that logic... perhaps because it's not logical.



Refering to Webster, to KNOW:

1 a (1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of (3) : to recognize the nature of : DISCERN b (1) : to recognize as being the same as something previously known (2) : to be acquainted or familiar with (3) : to have experience of



2 a : to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b : to have a practical understanding of



How many of you absolutely KNOW (def #1) how your child was treating on a daily basis? Really know. Do you ever wonder?

It doesn't appear that those posting here KNOW much about the BM techniques/methods/philosophy (whatever you choose to call the "treatment") used in the programs or seminars.

 
The poster might have shared how s/he was feeling, not presume to KNOW what others are feeling. Is that part of the confrontational approach?"


Your right lock your kid in a closet and never let them leave their room, you can never know if they leave if they get abused. Plus proffesionals at the schools (e.g. teachers, therapist, directors etc.) that are obligated to report abuse will not, they are not as competent that you could be with locking your child in his or her room.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #238 on: January 09, 2004, 01:48:00 AM »
Huh?  Locking kids in closets?  How about locking them out of the house? Making 'em sleep on a dog mat?  Premeditated psychological cruelty? Check this article out. Poor kid, with parents like this, is it any wonder he was not a happy camper?

Two on trial for love that was too tough
Date: November 23 2002

Was it an effort by parents to discipline their wayward child or was it cruelty? Stuart Pfeifer writes from Newport Beach, California.

Grady and Deborah Machnick were distressed about their teenage son's behaviour. His chores went unfinished. His grades were slipping. He stole money from them and shoplifted at the local supermarket. So the parents took drastic steps.

Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff's sergeant, and his wife, an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house until he finished his algebra homework. Some nights they forced him to sleep outside on a dog mat.

When the boy did not pick up droppings left by the family dogs his stepmother scooped up the litter from the backyard and put them in his backpack before he went to school.

Often he was excluded from the dinner table, forced to eat leftovers in the kitchen while the rest of the family dined on freshly cooked meals.

The Machnicks say they did this to discipline a wayward son before he got into even worse trouble. Prosecutors say their actions were not only misguided but criminal.

The parents went on trial this week in a child-endangerment case the likes of which prosecutors say they have never seen before. Most child abuse involves sudden, violent acts. This case focuses on what Orange County authorities describe as premeditated psychological cruelty.

Essentially, the Machnicks are accused of going overboard in "positive reinforcement" and other steps right out of a parenting self-help book. Implicitly, the case asks the justice system to define when parental tough love veers into a criminal act. The Machnicks are charged with misdemeanour child endangerment and felony conspiracy. If convicted of both offences they could each be sentenced to up to three years' jail. The couple, who have pleaded not guilty, do not dispute many of the allegations, though they deny ever physically harming the boy, now 16 and at high school.

"One of my biggest regrets is I was unable to find a form of behaviour modification that would work," Grady Machnick said in a statement released by his lawyer. The boy "has great potential but simply would not obey school or home rules".

In May 2001, the boy ran away. He arrived at his best friend's house after 1am, his hair soaking wet. He told his friend his father had awakened him by dousing him with "several gallons" of water to punish him for returning home late from school.

A week later, the friend's family informed police the Machnicks's son was living with them. When a detective arrived to interview Grady Machnick, the father said: "He didn't commit any crimes, did he?"

Later, when a social worker told him his son wanted to come home, Machnick said he would take him back only if he could continue with his disciplinary regimen. Authorities placed the boy in the custody of his best friend's family.

A social worker, Curtis Vaughn, concluded that "father and stepmother have totally failed in their parental duties to inform and instruct the child".

After charges were filed against the parents, the Sheriff's department placed Grady Machnick on unpaid leave. Deborah Machnick was relieved of her principal's duties and shifted to an administrative post where she has no contact with children.

The boy's name has been withheld because he is a minor.

Los Angeles Times
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #239 on: January 09, 2004, 01:59:00 AM »
This meets my definition of child abuse. And still, the boy wanted to go home.  Who can blame him?  Even too-tough love is better than no love at all.

 :flame:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »