Author Topic: Apologia - Serious debate only, please!  (Read 34365 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #210 on: January 08, 2004, 06:09:00 PM »
That's what I love about this thread!  So many different views!  Love it!    :smile:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #211 on: January 08, 2004, 06:11:00 PM »
OMG!  Don't get Deborah started on Mormon's.  Hopefully she'll respond in a separate thread on her view of Mormons, again.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #212 on: January 08, 2004, 06:17:00 PM »
Top Fund Raiser For Your Family
The WWASP programs are very unique and offer one of the best cash incentives that a program family could want. How does this sound: ?FREE MONTH IN PROGRAM!? Doesn?t that grab your attention? I suggest that you look at it this way - You can earn thousands of dollars by sharing your heart and experience with others in your community. It is easy to do. You do not need to be a salesperson looking for the ?close?. If you can take a stand, be committed, tell your story of why you placed your child in a program and be willing to give information to those that are looking for you then you can make the referral program the biggest asset in your financial package. Have you developed a list of professional to include: Police, Judges, Probations, Attorneys, Psychologists, Psychiatrists, Psychiatric Acute Care Centers, School Counselors, Principals, Youth Activity Directors, Parent Groups, Tough Love Groups, etc. Have you requested copies of some of the marketing material from Teen Help? The Teen Drug Use ? 34 Warning Signs is popular and the first to be taken at meetings. Now take that list of names and addresses and type it out on the computer if possible. Make a form letter and send the letter to each person on the list with two or three flyers. Do it again in one week. Do it again in two weeks. Do it again in two more weeks. Keep doing it over the course of two to three months. Unless your list is going to penguins on Adak Island in Alaska, you will obtain results.

How about creating a ?help my child? campaign at your office or with friends and acquaintances.

Why not create a ?sales? table at a church or social function? Set up a tabletop and offer the Landre story and it?s products as fundraiser items. Success stories have resulted in funds raised in excess of $500 in such a process. The Foundation has products and ideas to help you be successful.

And the list goes on. Be creative yet remember your objective. A number of families have offset their expenses by 25-50% by using the above methods. And, the Foundation is an asset in your process for we have the experience, products and systems in place to make it happen.
****************************************

That's a pretty heavy sales pitch. They even provide the promotional materials...for a fee of course.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #213 on: January 08, 2004, 06:21:00 PM »
***You mean Personal Growth?***

Do you know what philosophy the seminars are based on? Can you talk about EST/Lifespring?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #214 on: January 08, 2004, 06:22:00 PM »
This has gone from "abuse" to belittling parents for sharing what has worked for them.  Are you pissed because your son's program didn't offer a way to offset the tuition? What is your purpose, if I may ask?

Your post is amusing.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #215 on: January 08, 2004, 06:42:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-01-08 15:21:00, Deborah wrote:

"

***You mean Personal Growth?***



Do you know what philosophy the seminars are based on? Can you talk about EST/Lifespring?"


No, I have NO experience with the above.

Many things are "based on" what has come before.  Cars, companies, electronics, and yes, personal growth.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #216 on: January 08, 2004, 06:57:00 PM »
If you've attended the seminars then you know 'something' about it. Did they not tell you how their method came to be?
If you ever decide you want to know more click the links I provided. And don't miss these:

Pathology as ?Personal Growth?: A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training
http://www.caic.org.au/psyther/lifespring/pathology.htm

The Skeptic?s Dictionary
http://skepdic.com/landmark.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #217 on: January 08, 2004, 07:02:00 PM »
Anon Writes:

"Your going to love this!!! What if it was more than money, but somthing they believe in because they know it works, they have seen their whole family change and their lives because of these awesome programs, people who have experinced life changing positive events are very passionate about their new success and want to share with others, like Mormon Missionaries,WWASPS parents who are not paid, but go 2 years and acutally pay their own way. It is amazing once some one thinks of helping others, how powerfull these people can be."

Okay, this statement raises a very troubling question about I.N.D.O.C.T.R.I.N.A.T.I.O.N.

WWASPS parents (like Mormon Missionaries) volunteer their time and resources to zealously spread the word ... or rather, the Source of their "new success".  Well, Anon is right about one thing.  Self-Adulation is intoxicating.

 :scared:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #218 on: January 08, 2004, 07:08:00 PM »
Let me pose some questions to those who think paying people to recruit others is OK:

1) Do you disclose that you are paid when you recruit others?  If not, why not?  

2) If you saw a doctor hyping a new drug, would you want to know whether he was paid by the pharmaceutical company that sells it?  Would you be more skeptical of him if he didn't disclose and you later learned about this?  Why then is it OK for parents to do?

3) Do you think ads should be labeled in news media or is it ok for reporters to not disclose that they've been paid by the company they are praising?  What's the difference between this and what WWASP does?

4) would you want to know whether a celebrity who hawks a product on an informercial or goes on the Today show to say how wonderful Viagra is was paid by the industry?

5) Why is paying for referrals considered unethical in the rest of healthcare and in some instances, illegal, if it's just OK to pitch something that you love and happen to be paid for?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #219 on: January 08, 2004, 07:36:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-01-08 16:08:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Let me pose some questions to those who think paying people to recruit others is OK:



1) Do you disclose that you are paid when you recruit others?  If not, why not?  



2) If you saw a doctor hyping a new drug, would you want to know whether he was paid by the pharmaceutical company that sells it?  Would you be more skeptical of him if he didn't disclose and you later learned about this?  Why then is it OK for parents to do?



3) Do you think ads should be labeled in news media or is it ok for reporters to not disclose that they've been paid by the company they are praising?  What's the difference between this and what WWASP does?



4) would you want to know whether a celebrity who hawks a product on an informercial or goes on the Today show to say how wonderful Viagra is was paid by the industry?



5) Why is paying for referrals considered unethical in the rest of healthcare and in some instances, illegal, if it's just OK to pitch something that you love and happen to be paid for?



"


I don't think Specialty Boarding Schools are considered Mental Health or Health Care industry, If they were in those industries they would be at least three times the price of what most current tuitions.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #220 on: January 08, 2004, 09:27:00 PM »
Wow, lots on this board today about fear!  

No resolution in debating the seminars.  I took the time to read the first link provided by Deborah on LifeSpring.  Though there are some similarities in exercises, the interpretations by the writer were not my personal experience for the mostpart.  I agree on becoming aware and taking responsibility for choices.  

I know many parents and others in my seminars, both participants and staffers, that are in the health care industry: psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, nurses, doctors and are still applying what they learned. I guess that why the Dr. Phil's and the Marianne Williamson's are so successful, they get you to think for yourself and see things you haven't seen, if you're open.  

I didn't have a trainer that told me what I was supposed to think, or required to talk, share, etc., it was a choice.  I know if you want to look at a dark side, you'll find it, in anything. Even the dark side can be a great learning experience (Dark Side of the Light Chasers, Debbie Ford)

I did notice at the bottom a disclaimer regarding accuracy, but I wouldn't know, I wasn't there. Is it not human nature to resist change?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #221 on: January 08, 2004, 09:28:00 PM »
Anon Writes:

"I don't think Specialty Boarding Schools are considered Mental Health or Health Care industry, If they were in those industries they would be at least three times the price of what most current tuitions."

Anon, you are grossly misinformed. What kind of kids end up in a SS or program?  Kids who are inefficient and/or not living up to the expectations and demands of their parents and teachers.  This is the primary criteria for growing up in a **school** surrounded by an 8 foot tall chain link fence topped with hurricane wire.  Emotional Growth Boarding Schools? What would you expect the industry to call a parent-funded adolescent lock-down facility?  Happy Locked-Up Teens R Us?

 :idea:
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #222 on: January 08, 2004, 09:36:00 PM »
***I don't think Specialty Boarding Schools are considered Mental Health or Health Care industry, If they were in those industries they would be at least three times the price of what most current tuitions.***

I'm wondering now if you've really been brainwashed or have just failed to educate yourself, or for some reason would like to put a false spin on reality. Of course, SBS, TBS, RTC are part of the Mental Health Industry. The ones who have FT "professionals" on staff ARE expensive. And as critics claim, the less expensive ones are so because they don't hire FT "professionals". Further, if these facilities are not mental health facilties, then how are parents being reimbursed? Insurance companies don't pay for traditional boarding schools or tough-love intervention.

http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe02.html
Excerpts:
The difference between a Residential Treatment Center, for example, and an Emotional Growth School depends on the different emphases each places on the use of Psychiatry, Therapy, Structure (he used the term Milieu), Education, and Recreation. For example, a Residential Treatment Center will emphasize Psychiatry, Therapy and Therapeutic Structure in its program, with only minor elements of Recreation and Education. On the other hand, an Emotional Growth School is basically a mirror image of a RTC, in that the emphasis is on Structure, Education, and Recreation/activity, with only a minor role being played by Therapy and Psychiatry.

Many at that time felt that by applying scientific techniques from the medical community to mental health problems, they were on the verge of creating a miracle, that is, a society with a definitive solution to age-old behavior and emotional problems. This dream, plus amazing profits, was the driving force behind a major building boom in the seventies by hospitals and other facilities to treat all kinds of mental health conditions for young people through such institutions as youth psychiatric hospitals and wards, drug treatment programs and Residential Treatment Centers. Yet, 30 years later, reeling from accusations of ?warehousing,? ?outrageous costs,? and frequent ?lack-luster outcomes,? the mental health industry is seeing major changes. What happened?

Even in 1969, there was a considerable backlash to the direction the mental health establishment was going. Calling the prevalent mental health approach ?insensitive to our humanness,? and ?an out-of-balance extreme use of the scientific method,? a large number of alternatives were developed in the sixties and seventies challenging the prevailing ?scientific mental health? philosophy. Created mostly by lay people, movements such as AA, Synonon, Christian counseling, est and many more strove to prove that the factors of relationships, spirituality, adult role models and emotional maturity, the things discounted by mental health clinicians of the time, were really the most important keys to healing.

http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe05.html
THE MARATHON WORKSHOP and its value as a counseling tool in emotional growth schools
Where did these workshops come from? From creative minds. They came from often controversial influences and beginnings ? Synanon, Lifespring, est, ? out of the ?60?s ? and from many of the earliest creative innovators in the mental health field.

http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een02.html
The article traced Tranquility Bay?s TASK seminars back through Lifespring, est, to the Spanish Inquisition, the anti-Papist trials, and Chinese thought control or ?reeducation.? As you might imagine, the general tone is hostile.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #223 on: January 08, 2004, 09:38:00 PM »
I know this is a lengthy thread, but please go back and read some of what is written.  the criteria is not about kids not living up to their parents expectations for the mostpart, though that exists.

This seems to be a statement from someone who was never a parent of a troubled teen.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

These are good kids making destructive choices, dangerous choices whose parents love them.  BTW, I don't know of ANY wwasp program that has chain link fences and barbed,hurricane wire.  Leave that to the juvenile justice centers.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #224 on: January 08, 2004, 09:52:00 PM »
I won't quote all that was said on health care, mental health.  Listen!  Referral parents are not the ones that determine if a child is admitted to a program.  I think that was said earlier.  Those parents may get a little over zealous, but when you see the changes, it's sometimes hard to keep to themselves when they see another parent hurting.  Most of those parents, however, don't blanket the city with brochures, or tell other parents this is the ONLY way to heal.  I know there are other programs out there that are effective, because ultimately the kid and parents are responsible for the results.  The programs provide the tools, whatever program, and they're used or not.

I know doctors are paid by the pharmaceutical companies.  That's why natural medicine is always challenged by both physicians and the pharm. cos.  I don't need to ask.

I know if someone is paid for doing what they love, it's not a bad thing!  Deborah said she is paid for watching other people's children.  I could go as low as saying she is encouraging the parents to go to work and not watch their own children, but that's as stupid as saying it's wrong to get a break on tuition for helping other parents with providing an option.  

It really doesn't matter to me, and I can honestly say I've shared this program on occasion and never received a cent for it.  It's out of caring for another person in pain that I did it. But if I had, it would have been invested in my family.
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