Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

[Anonymous]

Deborah wrote: "But in these schools, there is absolutely no one to advocate for the kids. The parents are told not to believe them. The kids are ignored. The program has its own interests."

******
Excuse me? No one to advocate for the kids?  Really?  Hmmmm.  They have a grievance procedure that works.  I guess that doesn't count.  The facilitators, the family reps, the therapists on staff, advocate for the kids, they advocate for the families.  I guess that doesn't count either since they are paid for doing what they love. Other parents advocate for the kids.  

I know you are comparing other programs with wwasps, but until you have inside knowledge and experience, save the inuendos and guesses. You really have no clue.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-06 10:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

"when my kid wrote home he was starving; and all they fed him was beans and rice; it was true.

He lost something akin to 25 lbs in four months; eating everything he could get his hands on.



Yes, ignoring what your kids tell you is stupid alright; but its what you do."

Why did your son only choose to eat rice and beans?  Sounds like a self-imposed pity party to be rescued from having to follow rules.  Sorry about the judgment - but I've seen it work too many times to get what they want.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-07 21:47:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Deborah wrote: "But in these schools, there is absolutely no one to advocate for the kids. The parents are told not to believe them. The kids are ignored. The program has its own interests."



******

Excuse me? No one to advocate for the kids?  Really?  Hmmmm.  They have a grievance procedure that works.  I guess that doesn't count.  The facilitators, the family reps, the therapists on staff, advocate for the kids, they advocate for the families.  I guess that doesn't count either since they are paid for doing what they love. Other parents advocate for the kids.  



I know you are comparing other programs with wwasps, but until you have inside knowledge and experience, save the inuendos and guesses. You really have no clue.  "

Bravo, Bravo, Bravo, Beautifully Put. The critics claim to be experts in this industry but have no experince, go figure.

:nworthy:  :nworthy:  :tup:  :tup:  :tup:

[Deborah]

*** Deborah wrote: "But in these schools, there is absolutely no one to advocate for the kids. The parents are told not to believe them. The kids are ignored. The program has its own interests." ***

You have misquoted. An anon made that comment. I happen to agree, with one exception- I don't refer to or consider these facilities to be "schools".

Still wondering why it matters and why you all have such harsh judgments about parents who choose to remove their children, and teens who report abuse. No system in the real world relies on the staff accused of abuse to confirm or dispell it.


[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-01-08 04:54 ]

[Anonymous]

Okay yes the schools have a form the kids can fill out if they feel they are being treated un-just.....problem they recieve consequences to do so.  

How about that confession letter?  Kids are made to re-write them if they are not dirty enough (my experience) and when the parent doesn't buy into the confession in stating all things listed are not true as they have not been able to accomplish all acts listed....the family rep has them change it once again....and again...and again...until the parent buys in.  So in turn the manipulation, games, untruths, etc. has now been re-confirmed and continues to be mastered vs. what is promised...honesty, values, morals, self-esteem. blah blah blah....again no need to agree this was my experience of the events that happened.

Since everything must be earned from shaving your legs to off campus outings......there is no reward system in between that honors the "right or working (as they like to call it) choices".  The end result being manipulating and faking illness for a ride to the Dr.  Again my experience.... Which costs the parents more $$$$ in Dr. Visits and paying staff to take them there!

Yes I made the choice to send her there.....  Yes I did the seminars (all of them as was promised it would make the results better) I complied to everything they asked.  Why?  Because I believed in the program at the time and I believed in my daughter and yes because I loved her more than anything.  So do you find yourself asking why would you send her away if you loved her?  Well I truly believed it was the only way to save her from herself.  I thought this was the only way to not have her die on the streets.  I didn't want her in the Juvey system as I though it would teach her things she didn't know and if I had to spend my money I would spend it to help her vs. harm her (that is the real joke)!  Hook line and sinker I bought it.

I have been living the 2 year aftermath of utilizing this program.  It made things far worse than better.

After all the time in the program she still ended up in the legal system.  After spending 20 months in Utah she came home and spent another 4 months in the juvenile system.  It is true that not everyone in the juvenile system is equiped with an education to handle these issues either.  Although I have to pay for her visit there....they never made promises they couldn't keep.

Yes I get that these are her choices however the choices and the game moved up in anti after the utah stay.

It has been my experience that WWASPers do not want to hear the bad things in the program however reality says there is bad with everything that is good.  If someone states their experience WWASPers are all over them trying to change their experience.  Perhaps looking into others experiences will make things better as working out the issues is the key not ignoring them.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-08 08:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Okay yes the schools have a form the kids can fill out if they feel they are being treated un-just.....problem they recieve consequences to do so.  



How about that confession letter?  Kids are made to re-write them if they are not dirty enough (my experience) and when the parent doesn't buy into the confession in stating all things listed are not true as they have not been able to accomplish all acts listed....the family rep has them change it once again....and again...and again...until the parent buys in.  So in turn the manipulation, games, untruths, etc. has now been re-confirmed and continues to be mastered vs. what is promised...honesty, values, morals, self-esteem. blah blah blah....again no need to agree this was my experience of the events that happened.



Since everything must be earned from shaving your legs to off campus outings......there is no reward system in between that honors the "right or working (as they like to call it) choices".  The end result being manipulating and faking illness for a ride to the Dr.  Again my experience.... Which costs the parents more $$$$ in Dr. Visits and paying staff to take them there!



Yes I made the choice to send her there.....  Yes I did the seminars (all of them as was promised it would make the results better) I complied to everything they asked.  Why?  Because I believed in the program at the time and I believed in my daughter and yes because I loved her more than anything.  So do you find yourself asking why would you send her away if you loved her?  Well I truly believed it was the only way to save her from herself.  I thought this was the only way to not have her die on the streets.  I didn't want her in the Juvey system as I though it would teach her things she didn't know and if I had to spend my money I would spend it to help her vs. harm her (that is the real joke)!  Hook line and sinker I bought it.



I have been living the 2 year aftermath of utilizing this program.  It made things far worse than better.



After all the time in the program she still ended up in the legal system.  After spending 20 months in Utah she came home and spent another 4 months in the juvenile system.  It is true that not everyone in the juvenile system is equiped with an education to handle these issues either.  Although I have to pay for her visit there....they never made promises they couldn't keep.



Yes I get that these are her choices however the choices and the game moved up in anti after the utah stay.



It has been my experience that WWASPers do not want to hear the bad things in the program however reality says there is bad with everything that is good.  If someone states their experience WWASPers are all over them trying to change their experience.  Perhaps looking into others experiences will make things better as working out the issues is the key not ignoring them.



"

No program can help your child if your child does not want to change- bottom line!!! That is why this brain washing is a bunch of garbage- a person must at least have a desire to change to change. The only promise that or warranty that a WWASP affiliated school makes is their warranty, that if  a child graduates then they can come back for 60 days free of charge. So if they graduate a program they must feel that this teen has truly attemted to change and the teen have seen some positive results and made some good life changing choices. Something to think about.

I wish you well with getting any issues resolved with your child.

The program works, I have seen hundreds of teens giving the chance to change and make a better life for themselves.

[Anonymous]

You didn't say if your daughter graduated. Sometimes that is the difference between success and the choices she chose to make, sometimes not.  Your daughter's program is not your program.  You each have your own way of applying what you learned.  

I do not agree with the confession letter experience.  There were no point consequences for not being honest.  It was what it was...the beginning of honesty.  If you didn't agree with what she wrote, then you were able to communicate that, right?  They don't make promises, if they did, what were they? Just a guess, but did you expect more of your daughter than she delivered? Are you blaming the staff for something here?  

Nothing in place between "privileges?"  I'm not sure I understand what you mean.  Working choices for a lot of the kids is the self-satisfaction that they are moving toward a higher level and they CAN do it. That comes from "within" not from "without."  I would like to hear more from you on this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: " Okay yes the schools have a form the kids can fill out if they feel they are being treated un-just.....problem they recieve consequences to do so."

I don't believe that, unless, of course, the grievance was found to be manipulation.  Her peers and staff and director would make the decision. Was it a grievance based on manipulation, or do you feel it was an honest grievance? I'd also like to hear more on this since I'm making assumptions here.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-08 08:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Okay yes the schools have a form the kids can fill out if they feel they are being treated un-just.....problem they recieve consequences to do so.  



How about that confession letter?  Kids are made to re-write them if they are not dirty enough (my experience) and when the parent doesn't buy into the confession in stating all things listed are not true as they have not been able to accomplish all acts listed....the family rep has them change it once again....and again...and again...until the parent buys in.  So in turn the manipulation, games, untruths, etc. has now been re-confirmed and continues to be mastered vs. what is promised...honesty, values, morals, self-esteem. blah blah blah....again no need to agree this was my experience of the events that happened.



Since everything must be earned from shaving your legs to off campus outings......there is no reward system in between that honors the "right or working (as they like to call it) choices".  The end result being manipulating and faking illness for a ride to the Dr.  Again my experience.... Which costs the parents more $$$$ in Dr. Visits and paying staff to take them there!



Yes I made the choice to send her there.....  Yes I did the seminars (all of them as was promised it would make the results better) I complied to everything they asked.  Why?  Because I believed in the program at the time and I believed in my daughter and yes because I loved her more than anything.  So do you find yourself asking why would you send her away if you loved her?  Well I truly believed it was the only way to save her from herself.  I thought this was the only way to not have her die on the streets.  I didn't want her in the Juvey system as I though it would teach her things she didn't know and if I had to spend my money I would spend it to help her vs. harm her (that is the real joke)!  Hook line and sinker I bought it.



I have been living the 2 year aftermath of utilizing this program.  It made things far worse than better.



After all the time in the program she still ended up in the legal system.  After spending 20 months in Utah she came home and spent another 4 months in the juvenile system.  It is true that not everyone in the juvenile system is equiped with an education to handle these issues either.  Although I have to pay for her visit there....they never made promises they couldn't keep.



Yes I get that these are her choices however the choices and the game moved up in anti after the utah stay.



It has been my experience that WWASPers do not want to hear the bad things in the program however reality says there is bad with everything that is good.  If someone states their experience WWASPers are all over them trying to change their experience.  Perhaps looking into others experiences will make things better as working out the issues is the key not ignoring them.



"

I see nothing wrong with consumers (and that's what these parents are) discussing their experience with a product (e.g. one of these programs, schools, camps for struggling teens)
on a public forum.  Anon has a very good point:  "Perhaps looking into others experiences will make things better as working out the issues is the key to not ignoring them".

To program parents, my suggestion would be to be mindful of what really is at stake: Children's safety and well-being.  What harm is there in making a sincere effort to listen to these so called "disgruntled" parents (again, I remind you they are the consumer) to gleen information that helps (not harms) these programs to do a better job? No product is so perfect that it can not be made even better. Second, the tendency for program parents to *defend* against negative feedback serves no purpose except to absolve the program owners and operators from their obligation to address the concerns of their clients.  Past, Present and Future. Quite frankly, in this business, it is imperative that these organizations recognize the value of CHANGE within their own ranks, not just their policies and procedures.  Keeping pace with the competition should not be a litigious game.  It should be based on creating and promoting a superior product.  One that strives to deliver what is promised, and if they miss the mark, work to correct the situation, instead of blaming the consumer as the first line of defense.

 :wave:

[Anonymous]

Anon - I couldn't agree with you more.  That's why I read everything that is written and respond from my own experience. I have said lately that an investigation would be a good thing, so bring it on.  It may finally put to rest any questions the public may have.  There will always be disgruntled parents in this industry.  And what needs to be changed should be changed.  There have been many changes and it continues to change for the better.  WWASPS never professed to be "perfect."  What their program provides works in most families, but there's always room for improvement.  I just read in The Source that they are changing the initial seminars for the new kids and have changed the Visions seminar to something that looks to be more effective in helping the dynamics of the whole family.  The whole program is based on change and every entity looks to be open to this.

[spots]

This topic, started by Ginger as an effort to really discuss something, is very active.  It would appear to have, maybe, 6 or 8 regular posters, with an interesting mix of "regular-but-not-on-this-topic" people...meaning several other forum folks read here regularly.  Hmmm...we have a larger audience than we think.

I am impressed with the caliber of opinions, grammar, etc., but if you look closely, you will probably find that we are faced with just 2 WWASPS supporters.  One woman has a nephew who emerged from Cross Creek a while ago a significantly-changed individual.  OK.  She also seems to be the same person who refers to the 100's of satisfied customers (or 1000's, depending on how ludicrous she feels) she personally knows.  Nevermind that she never refers to these 100's [or 1000's] of folks by name, personal knowledge, anecdotal experiences, etc., except to point to The Source magazine for her, uhmmm, source.  One wonders why such a distant relative spends hours reading this forum and adamantly attacking every post with rebuttal, especially since her rebuttals center mostly on "they don't do what you [and literally 100's of other kids] say".  

Our second Anon who seems hell-bent of rebutting each post is identifiable by her syntax, which mostly is LARGE-SIZE FONT, a horrible breach of Internet etiquette that she has recently discovered how to do.  Is this the same Anon who bitterly demands, "Please do not avoid the question" or "Please answer the question".  Saying please isn't going to gloss over the nasty demands from some etheral harpy out there, and does she really expect we intelligent and informed posters to "fess up" and bow to her demands to answer her hostile questions?  Like...does she really have and "questions" that are not attacks.  Lady, didn't you take seriously your Debate class when you were in Harvard?  Your style is right up there on the list of ineffective arguing.  Oh, well, maybe you have to have at least 3 check-offs from the List of Stupid Debating Techniques to really fit into the category of Stupid Debater.  

FWIW, I just fell into the category of Stupid Debater by responding to these Anons.  Oh well, too much coffee this morning.  I must go out to the barn to scoop poop, as that has some real purpose as opposed to shoveling around crap on this board.

[Anonymous]

I have read the responses and see that perhaps some agree that all things need to be looked at to make a change in the system.  It isn't about right vs. wrong it is about all things have room for improvement and all voices "experiences" warrant truth.

Yes WWASP has the 60 day guarantee for those who graduate.  What Guarantee do they warrant for those that have learned all they can vs. graduation?  Do all those kids fail? No  Is change a choice?  Yes it is however to build self-esteem doesn't start with the tearing of one down.  Was that learned from a manipulation letter?  No it was learned from a one on one session I sat in on.  Did the therapist get changed?  Yes after I addressed my concerns with the director.  At the time of this change the family rep confided in my family that she knew it was not a working relationship however she kept this quiet.  So what happened to the complaint form my daughter filled out about it?  She received consequences for manipulating vs. working.  Was she manipulating?  No I watched it and yes it was after I had been involved for 10 months and completed all required seminars.  

My point is there is room for improvement and the only way to get the issues resolved is to listen to others experience.  Ones experience can not be changed because of others dis-belief in the facts or their need to continue to wear the blinders to see no wrong.  As I said before there is good and bad in every thing.  

I understand the difference between her program and mine.  However that does not change the experience.

You do not want to believe about the confession letter?  Fine, I respect that however it was my experience and that had nothing to do with manipulation on the part of my daughter.

Yes things have changed as far as my expectations and the need to control and the game itself.  I know I can only control my choices and she has to live with hers.  I didn't expect a robot or miracles however I didn't expect all I received.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-08 09:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Anon - I couldn't agree with you more.  That's why I read everything that is written and respond from my own experience. I have said lately that an investigation would be a good thing, so bring it on.  It may finally put to rest any questions the public may have.  There will always be disgruntled parents in this industry.  And what needs to be changed should be changed.  There have been many changes and it continues to change for the better.  WWASPS never professed to be "perfect."  What their program provides works in most families, but there's always room for improvement.  I just read in The Source that they are changing the initial seminars for the new kids and have changed the Visions seminar to something that looks to be more effective in helping the dynamics of the whole family.  The whole program is based on change and every entity looks to be open to this.  "

Thanks, Anon. I don't know much about these seminars you speak of, except from what I have read in general about LGAT seminars.  However, they do appear to be a "flash point" based on the controversial experience of persons (adults and children) who have experienced them first hand.  More definitive discussion/debate on this component of these programs would be highly productive.  Another area of interest is the use of inhouse referrals to boost enrollment. While at first blush it does not seem inappropriate to reward parents who refer other parents with a free month's tuition (or other forms of compensation), it seems to me this practice has spawned a lucrative cottage industry that is in dire need of oversight to guard against the exploitation of families and children. I am curious as to whether this is a widespread problem within the industry, at large?  In other words, of the hundreds of programs for teens with behavioral problems, how many of them are paying parents (one way or another) to recruit other families?

[Anonymous]

Spots

My posts on my experience was intended for the serious debate on the issue of Teen Programs.  It was not my intention to annoy you or dis what was started on this board.  :smile:

m

[Anonymous]

Anon - the seminars are something you would need to experience first hand.  I'm not really sure a discussion would be anything but that, a discussion.  The seminars are open to the public.

As for the referrals.  Parents that ran into nothingness, brick walls, restrictions, etc., can share with other parents their experience of the wwasps schools/programs.  They are not the ones that do the admissions or even determine if the child is a candidate for admission.  They have admissions staff for that.  They simply share parent to parent and the parent can decide for themselves.  I honestly don't know of a parent that said you have to do this, or twisted their arm.  With the tuition costs, private pay, it's awesome that this program will extend a free month based on their putting themselves out there. I don't think they pay educational consultants and a lot of that has caused ed cons to not recommend them.  Some even go so far as to say how bad they are if they are asked by a parent considering them.  

Bottom line is the wwasps affilated parents are sharing an option, no more, no less.  And, getting a much needed break on tution costs.  Win/Win.    

I can't speak about other programs doing this, they seem to have educational consultants to do that for them.