Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

[Anonymous]

Spots wrote: "She also "chose out" of 3 successive Discovery seminars, not because of anything specific she said, but because of things she would not say. "If you don't say what they want you to, then they say you 'chose out', send you out and you wait another 6 weeks before they try again. You eventually learn to say what they want."

Spots, what makes you an expert on this?  What was your experience in Discovery or have you taken yourself to a place of talking with kids that graduated?  Doesn't sound like it.  You've got yourself so tied up in negativity that I don't think you could find anything positive about anything that you had no control over.

Just an observation from what you wrote, it sounds like you may be using this girl to further your agenda.  I think that's worse than anything that she created for herself at Casa.  

You may want to learn from what is currently happening with PURE due to the defamation suit.  It's one thing to KNOW something, it's another believe something, and yet another to outright state heresay as fact.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-05 08:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I notice neither of you poor program fools wanted to comment on the months wasted away in worksheets; except to imply she must have deserved to sit motionless in a chair for weeks on end like some catatonic scitzoid.

I noticed you managed to ignore the girl with the scared chin from her frequent hog tieing. I suppose you feel she must've also been diserving of such treatment.

I garentee you; you would not have been able to ignore these things; or able to think it acceptable; before you went threw the seminairs.



And really, do you think the program is going to explain to you, they read your kids mail, and if it contains something they'd rather not explain, they fail to mail it?



There are programs that can treat you for cultic brainwashing and help you regain your ability to think for yourself. You should look into it."

Ignore?  No, just passing on it.  That girl could have chosen to be with her peers, but instead chose to be in worksheets, she knew the rules. And, a girl with a scarred chin?  That's heresay.  Show me the pictures.  This is typical manipulation in ALL programs around the country and beyond.  

It's easier for some to believe this without proof and play on the fears of parents looking for reasons to not get help for their family.  Way more kids cry abuse than don't in these programs, all programs.  What would be more outlandish is to get a letter from your child saying how wonderful it is!  LOL!

[Anonymous]

"And really, do you think the program is going to explain to you, they read your kids mail, and if it contains something they'd rather not explain, they fail to mail it?"

Sorry, forgot this one - that is one of the strangest statements I've heard thus far, really.  I guess no parent would get any letters from their child in the beginning.  Every parent I know has gotten the most horrible letters from their child in the beginning.  I had many myself that I couldn't imagine if it had been sensored, could have made it through. It was full of the worse language and absolutely horrible statements that were NOT true, but I got 'em anyway.  I wish there had been consequences for writing that stuff,but there wasn't because it just isn't true that the mail is censored, at least not in my kid's program.  Can't speak for the others, but I do know kids from other programs that say the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Let me explain a little better.
From your very first contact with wwasp you have been told that you will get negative letters that might be upsetting; but that its all lies.
You believe this, b/c your kid has so often lied to you.
When the letters arrive, you are already conditioned to ignore all thats upsetting; and only believe whats positive.
So, most of the mail is allowed threw.
However, on the occasions when something is said that is of a more substantial nature; and they don't wish to try and explain it; That letter you'll never see.
Maybe this isn't done in each and every wwasp program school; but it seems to be par for the coarse according to employees who have spoken about it.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-06 07:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Let me explain a little better.

From your very first contact with wwasp you have been told that you will get negative letters that might be upsetting; but that its all lies.

You believe this, b/c your kid has so often lied to you.

When the letters arrive, you are already conditioned to ignore all thats upsetting; and only believe whats positive.

So, most of the mail is allowed threw.

However, on the occasions when something is said that is of a more substantial nature; and they don't wish to try and explain it; That letter you'll never see.

Maybe this isn't done in each and every wwasp program school; but it seems to be par for the coarse according to employees who have spoken about it.

"

Careful now, Anon. Would not want anybody do a WWF search on the key word "coarse".  

God Bless America and ..... space -.

 :wave:

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-06 07:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Let me explain a little better.

From your very first contact with wwasp you have been told that you will get negative letters that might be upsetting; but that its all lies.

You believe this, b/c your kid has so often lied to you.

When the letters arrive, you are already conditioned to ignore all thats upsetting; and only believe whats positive.

So, most of the mail is allowed threw.

However, on the occasions when something is said that is of a more substantial nature; and they don't wish to try and explain it; That letter you'll never see.

Maybe this isn't done in each and every wwasp program school; but it seems to be par for the coarse according to employees who have spoken about it.

"

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=40

[Anonymous]

Okay, let's debate on mail!  Whatever...

Parents DON"T ignore the allegations their child writes in the letters.  How stupid is that.  They are warned about the tactics the kids use, but in most cases, when a letter alleging starvation, abuse, etc., etc., is written, most if not all parents are going to check the validity.  If they freak out and decide it's true without checking the facts, then their darling comes home, all happy that they once again, pulled the proverbial wool over daddy's or mommy's eyes.  If they check it out, they will find it's usually another manipulation and thier kid is exactly where they need to be.  This kind of letter writing comes from ALL programs in the early stages of the stay.  Go figure!  

What you said about letters not making it home.  Then please explain why they do and why freaked out parents (co-dependent's mostly) go pick up their poor abused child?

[Anonymous]

when my kid wrote home he was starving; and all they fed him was beans and rice; it was true.
He lost something akin to 25 lbs in four months; eating everything he could get his hands on.

Yes, ignoring what your kids tell you is stupid alright; but its what you do.

[Deborah]

Anon wrote: They are warned about the tactics the kids use, but in most cases, when a letter alleging starvation, abuse, etc., etc., is written, most if not all parents are going to check the validity. If they freak out and decide it's true without checking the facts, then their darling comes home, all happy that they once again, pulled the proverbial wool over daddy's or mommy's eyes. If they check it out, they will find it's usually another manipulation and thier kid is exactly where they need to be. This kind of letter writing comes from ALL programs in the early stages of the stay. Go figure!
What you said about letters not making it home. Then please explain why they do and why freaked out parents (co-dependent's mostly) go pick up their poor abused child?
*************************

How does a concerned parent go about "checking the facts"? Talk to someone inside the program, the very program/people their child has accused of abuse? What kind of logic is that?

"Freaked out, co-dependent parents"?  

What difference does it make to you what OTHER parents decide and do? Do you resent parents who CHOOSE to remove their kid, for whatever reason?
Why?

And the comment "little darling".
Do you dislike kids in general, or just those who you believe need "treatment"?

Let the parents decide for themselves through unmonitored communication with their child.

If you don't trust parents to make the right choices for their kids, then you have some unspoken motive or agenda- you stand to loose money or you need other parents to stay in the program to confirm that you are doing the right thing. Or as many have pointed out, you're a zealot who needs to feel you are changing the world, and resent parents who dash that illusion.

Who's co-dependent here?

PS Your comments and attitude seem to contradict what your anon buddy said:
"They can always go and pick them up if they don't feel it's the right place to be. NONE of the parents knew if it would be, some find it's not and choose another school, or bring them home. To each his own."

Which of you represent the program's attitude?

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-01-06 19:53 ]

[Anonymous]

Deborah - Program attitude?  There is no "program" attitude.  Each person develops their own beliefs, Attitude is a poor choice of words for beliefs.

You asked Who's Co-dependent here?  Don't know.  But here is a checklist: A yes to three or more of these questions would indicate that codependency is likely to be an issue.


Do you avoid confrontation at all costs?

Do you feel humiliated by even the slightest criticism?

When someone you care about is uncommunicative, do you assume that you have done something wrong?

Are you deeply distressed by expressions of anger---even if they're not directed at you?

If your partner is having a bad day, do you feel guilty about being "up"?

Do you expect your partner to recognize and accommodate your emotional needs even though you are unable to articulate them?

When you join a gathering of friends or business associates, do you immediately scan faces to determine the emotional climate in the room?

If a friend or family member has a problem, is it your job to fix it?

Do you internalize perceived slights and insults, unable to address them directly, until a day when you astonish yourself and others with a tearful or angry outburst that might be triggered by a seemingly trivial incident?

At the end of the day, do you review your interactions with others and anguish about your choice of words?

Do you work hard to maintain composure in an emotional situation? Would you leave the room if you felt that your facial expression might "give you away?"

Are you a perfectionist?

If somebody bumps you (in a grocery store, for instance) do you apologize (just for being in the way).

Do you agonize over small imperfections in your garments, home or garden that others would be unlikely to notice?

Do you feel anxiety when other people have problems that you can't solve?

Do you find it difficult to be playful around other adults?

Do you find it embarrassing to be caught doing frivolous things by your partner (like reading a comic strip)?

[Anonymous]

Surely you can't believe any of this describes Debra.
It's not like I really know the lady; but I've been reading her post with interest for months and I think it very apparent none of this could be used to describe her.
I can't think of any parent involved with the battle against abusive programs that can be put in the pigeon hole your trying to shove them in.
You'll have to come up with something else.

[Anonymous]

No, it wasn't meant to describe Deborah.

It does describe many parents that are in the "rescue my kid from the program" mode.  It's an acceptance issue.  They want their kids to accept them and will do anything, even if isn't in their best interests to gain that acceptance.

Obviously it goes deeper than that, but the checklist just gets them to think.  I'm co-dependent, and just being aware of the traits and getting help has been very effective in choosing another path.

[Deborah]

***It does describe many parents that are in the "rescue my kid from the program" mode. It's an acceptance issue. They want their kids to accept them and will do anything, even if isn't in their best interests to gain that acceptance.***

And SO WHAT if it is? Do you consider it your business what other parents CHOOSE to do? Or does your business suffer based on their choices? It's not your place to judge them if they CHOOSE not to participate in your personal growth program or seminar.
Again, why are you so judgmental of these parents. Why are you SOOOO obviously affected by the CHOICES other parents make?

Do any of these apply for you?

If a friend or family member has a problem, is it your job to fix it?

Are you a perfectionist?

Do you feel anxiety when other people have problems that you can't solve?
**********

Ah Oh, That's three. And I think there are a few more than were not listed.

[Anonymous]

Ok,

I am reading that the mail is censored, but the parents get letters claiming abuse and starvation from the students, DOES anyone else see a problem here? or just an agenda by  some people that clearly have no real experince but claim to be experts.

Ok, let me guess, they censor mail but aren't smart enough to censor the abuse, starvation etc that is in the letters because they have no creditintial and do not know how to read. Plus they are the scum of the earth.

[Anonymous]

Btw, checklists for diagnosing "co-dependency" are about as scientific as horoscopes.

Codependency is the human condition-- it's caring about others and in most societies that are sane, it is valued not dismissed in favor of self-centeredness.

Second, anyone who would send a kid to a place and thinks being told to ignore accounts of abuse as "manipulation" is ok is either desperate and/or naive.

Because if all abuse is lies, ANY ABUSE CAN BE DONE and GO UNREPORTED AND UNCHALLENGED AND GO ON.

If all abuse is lies, sexual molestation and all manner of other horrors can easily go unchecked.

Prisons and hospitals have ombudsmen for complaints because they know that those in charge will automatically dismiss inmates and patients' complaints as "manipulation," whether or not they are true.  To prevent abuses of power, such checks are needed because thoese who are confined are vulnerable.  These systems were arrived out only after years of abuse and they are still far from perfect-- but they recognize that people in power will abuse that power if there is no oversight.

But in these schools, there is absolutely no one to advocate for the kids.  The parents are told not to believe them.  The kids are ignored.  The program has its own interests.

So let's say a program has this ideology, but is well intentioned.  They try to screen their employees well, but they cannot pay very much and so an abusive person or pedophile is bound to slip through at some point, particularly given the high turnover in this field and the high desirability of these jobs amongst those who want to abuse kids.

So now you've got a guy with absolute power over your daughter, and you aren't going to believe your lying kid and your kid is going to get abused.

Is this why you spent years trying to keep them safe and keep child abusers out of your neighborhoods?  Only to suddenly find strangers more believable than your own child?  Only to trust absolutely in the goodness of people working minimum wage jobs with no education or training?

How can you buy this?