Author Topic: Apologia - Serious debate only, please!  (Read 34426 times)

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Offline Antigen

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Apologia - Serious debate only, please!
« Reply #150 on: January 04, 2004, 04:18:00 PM »
Deb, when I was in the Program, there was a special lingo. "Honesty" or "Get Honest!!!!", as it was often shouted, didn't mean the same thing as it means to most people. What it meant was "Confess to whatever thoughts or feelings or deeds we've already decided are true." After awhile, you want to get along and not be constantly screamed at, so you decide to adopt this paralell definition of the word so you'll know how to respond whenever your asked to.

Similarly, an attack had a different meaning. It meant questioning the group's dogma. I don't think you attacked this guy. I think you're asking questions about the program methods and philosophy. But he really and truely believes that this is a personal attack on his... what, integrity? Honesty?

Ever consider how nearly interchangable are words like advertise and proselytize?

But the large volume of huge text is pretty close to flooding. I'm going to go and remove the huge text tags, but I'll leave the content because it has become relavent to the discussion.

But please don't try me, anon. I have never banned or censored anyone because I didn't like what they had to say. Just take a look at any of a number of raunchy topics with the name Ginger in them. That would be me. Ginger Warbis aka Antigen, host of all things Fornits.com (but no relation to the nicer German guy named Wolf who hosts fornit.com and who sometimes forwards to me my misdirected email)

Now then. Exactly why do you want to be Anonymous? I'm not saying you're not allowed or that you don't have a good reason. I'm just curious to know as much about who you are as you know about me.

There is not a "fragment" in all nature, for every relative fragment of one thing is a full harmonious unit in itself.
-- John Muir

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #151 on: January 04, 2004, 04:26:00 PM »
Did he put the right address?
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #152 on: January 04, 2004, 05:35:00 PM »
Did the house "father" and/or family rep, who was constantly in touch with the family, not know the correct address?

Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By  any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.
http://www.masscann.org/quotes.htm' target='_new'>Administrative Law Judge, Francis Young,  DOJ/DEA

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #153 on: January 04, 2004, 07:44:00 PM »
Deborah - my response to sending a child to a program "against their will" is that if the child does not agree to go, and tells his parents there is nothing they can do about what he is doing, then I personally feel the parent needs to be a parent and do whatever it takes to get their child help - whether the kid agrees or not.  Then the whole family can start healing.  You have your beliefs on what works, as do I.  It would be wonderful if the kid did agree, and some do, but most don't.  Being a parent means caring enough to go with their gut feelings, get past the fear and just do it.  They can always go and pick them up if they don't feel it's the right place to be.  NONE of the parents knew if it would be, some find it's not and choose another school, or bring them home.  To each his own.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #154 on: January 04, 2004, 07:52:00 PM »
What's amazing about those testimonials is

a) no real names

b) the so-called doctor published in peer reviewed journals is a joke, claiming NYT article wouldn't pass peer review.  NYT article would be more likely to pass peer review than a collection of anecdotes, which as he well knows, tell absolutely nothing about whether or not a treatment works.  I fear for his patients if that's what he bases his care on-- and I bet his "peer reviewed" papers had co-authors!

c) WWASP expects the general public to believe a bunch of anonymous people (who could easily be the same person) more than the New York Times, which despite it having had some troubles of late, is still the most respected newspaper in the world.
they don't even provide their emails or phone numbers, which are provided on all the boards where WWASP tries to say they are all from the same person and which are clearly not if you call or email the people who post.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #155 on: January 04, 2004, 07:57:00 PM »
Those parents probably didn't send anon letters.  Idon't think wwasp wanted to post the last names publically due to the harrassment factor from those that don't share the same view.  

I'll betcha that Tim Weiner received the full names as he contacted some of them personally and twisted and omitted much of what he was told.

believe it or not, whatever...
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #156 on: January 04, 2004, 08:09:00 PM »
All of the magazine shows full names - http://www.wwasp.com/source03/Dec-03-Source.pdf - granted there aren't the "hundreds" of testimonials in it, but each one has some great reading.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #157 on: January 04, 2004, 08:26:00 PM »
The parent is ultimately incarcerating (that constitutes abuse to some) the teen against their will out of fear for what might happen to the kid. Various other fears are stated, but this seems to be the primary fear.

Look, the number one killer in this country is Heart Disease, and quickly climbing the charts is cancer. Both could be prevented with adequate nutrition, exercise, and the avoidance of toxins.

Americans slowly kill themselves everyday with their dietary choices and sedetary lifestlyes. Far more deaths due to this than illegal drugs and risky lifestyles. And, those same Americans train/condition their children to follow in their footsteps down this path to premature death.

Does that give me, or anyone else, the right to round up everyone who's overweight or exhibiting the early signs of heart disease and incarcerate them in fat farms against their will; isolated from the world so they can work MY program; and for an unspecified time at which I feel they are making better choices for themselves? Then defend my action by saying I did it out of love for them and to prevent their POSSIBLE premature death? Heaven help us if the Insurance Industry latches onto this idea.

No, this has nothing to do with love, in my opinion. And everything to do with fear. And that fear is exploited by those who stand to gain monetarily.
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #158 on: January 04, 2004, 10:29:00 PM »
No Deborah - me thinks you are the one grasping at straws to make sure you are right. You come off as an expert on wwasp programs.  That's really funny - you are single handedly turning this into a bash in my opinion.  Bash your own program experience on another thread.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought this thread was for serious debate on wwasp experiences.  If you wanna turn it into all programs, then fine, clarify your experience with the program you are familiar with.  

BTW, I would help a person who is overweight if they wanted it, but I would help a child experiencing bulemia/anorexia/cutting or a diabetic that isn't taking care of their needs to stay alive - I would do that in a heart beat without their agreement - what does love mean to you?  

Ever heard the starfish story?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #159 on: January 04, 2004, 10:33:00 PM »
Deborah, have you ever heard of a kid being truly incarcerated, like jail, against their will?  I guess that makes it okay if a judge makes that decision.  Thank goodness my kid never had to experience that kind of "help."  LOL!   :razz:
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Offline spots

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« Reply #160 on: January 05, 2004, 12:27:00 AM »
Quote
 The letters in a wwasp school are NOT censored.  The kids can write anything their hearts desire, whether nice, or not.  The family rep also has contact on a weekly basis with the parents.


My grandaughter was admitted to Casa by the Sea on November 2, 2002.  During the first months, she was required to go to the computer area on every Monday and write a letter home (or to us, or to her siblings).  In the first 6 weeks, 2 letters came to us.  Two letters came to her mother also (I don't know if they were the same week or not).  Of the 2 letters we got, both were oddly stilted, negative, not ranting, but simply stating (prophetically), "things are not what you have been told around here".  The other weeks' letters simply disappeared.

During this period, the Odyssey family rep, Paola Segura, called the mother every Tuesday with a short update. Each call was similar:  "...she is having some problems with the rules, but otherwise, she is doing fine."  My grandaughter, upon returning home, told us she spent more than 2 early months in Worksheets, a very small white room with only a plastic resin chair, feet flat on the floor, hands by her sides, no schooling whatsoever, no physical activity save short periodic potty breaks, limited meals, including Thanksgiving, and no contact with the outside world, her peers, or her family.  This was her existence from early November until sometime after the New Year.  When recently asked about kids being on their knees, "is it true", she replied, "Yes, that's what R&R is all about".  She also knew one girl in her family who had scars on her chin from continual repeated hog-tying episodes in R&R.

She also "chose out" of 3 successive Discovery seminars, not because of anything specific she said, but because of things she would not say.  "If you don't say what they want you to, then they say you 'chose out', send you out and you wait another 6 weeks before they try again.  You eventually learn to say what they want."  

A child can write anything and everything he wants about WWASPS facilities.  That missive, however, will seldom make it through THE CENSORS.  Don't imagine for a moment it is uncensored open communication.  Why do you think they have the kids use email (easily and anonymously delete-able) instead of handwriting?  Would parents be comfortable with felt-marker blacked out chunks of letters?

It is vital that the Program have unfettered freedom to "mold" the minds of their internees.  Parents who accept an evaluation of a minimum-wage, untrained, non-English-proficient guard grant to the Program their child's welfare.  I absolutely am breathless when I consider that my grandchild was watched over by such marginal human beings, and was kept, as a Level II,  from the outside world (including her parent) for 10 months of incarceration.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #161 on: January 05, 2004, 01:38:00 AM »
Spots - I really do understand why you would want to believe your granddaughter and since I have ZERO experience of Casa by the Sea, I won't dispute this.  It just seems odd,however, that the other schools don't censor mail, or should I say censor outbound mail.  The two schools that I am familiar with don't use computers to write letters home.  They're done the old fashioned way, writing by hand.  

They do censor inbound mail for illegal items, not written content.

If your granddaughter was in worksheets and didn't complete discovery the first three times, what does that tell you about her needing to be exactly where she was?  The kids that really don't need this level of help tend to fly through it. If what you just shared is what she really said, then she's got you right where she wants you and you seem to think that's okay.  Hope it all works out, really.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #162 on: January 05, 2004, 01:46:00 AM »
Your granddaughter kept herself at Level 2 - geez!  

What I hear you saying is that you're better than other people and YOU'RE the only one good enough to be in her space, including her parents.

Thanks for sharing.  :wink:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #163 on: January 05, 2004, 11:50:00 AM »
I notice neither of you poor program fools wanted to comment on the months wasted away in worksheets; except to imply she must have deserved to sit motionless in a chair for weeks on end like some catatonic scitzoid.
I noticed you managed to ignore the girl with the scared chin from her frequent hog tieing. I suppose you feel she must've also been diserving of such treatment.
I garentee you; you would not have been able to ignore these things; or able to think it acceptable; before you went threw the seminairs.

And really, do you think the program is going to explain to you, they read your kids mail, and if it contains something they'd rather not explain, they fail to mail it?

There are programs that can treat you for cultic brainwashing and help you regain your ability to think for yourself. You should look into it.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #164 on: January 05, 2004, 01:49:00 PM »
Just a little info:

Boundaries - Limits that you place on the behavior of others around you.

Walls - Limits that you insist on that shut people out.

Comparisons

about your needs vs. about the other person's behavior allows you to relate within limits vs. doesn't allow for relationship

Example

Tina had a boundary around the tone of voice people used with her. When people used a harsh or condescending tone of voice, she gently
explained how that affected her and requested that they speak to her differently. Winona also had a concern about how people spoke to her.
When someone used a loud or aggressive tone with her, she flew into a rage and criticized him for being rude to her.

Key Point

A boundary protects you from the things other people do that drain you or diminish you. Extensive boundaries allow you to stop the other
person before their behavior has an effect on you. Healthy boundaries give you more freedom and ease in relating to other human beings. When
you use your boundaries to judge others as wrong, insist on being right, or explain them in an aggressive or righteous way, they become
walls. They remove your ability to relate rather than increase it.

Benefits

A boundary saves you time and energy and keeps you out of conflict.
Walls become a source of conflict in your relationships.

***********

Lots of WALLS here!
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