Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

[Anonymous]

Addition response on cults.  Ginger, the definition of cult is clear and can be stretched to a cult that dominates it's members - like Jim Jones.  Those are the worst case scenario and when the word "cult" is used, it takes on a very negative connotation.  If churches are cults, then that's not a bad thing.  It also means to "cultivate" - to grow.  Wwasp programs encourage individual thinking and choices.

The kid Corey that killed himself when his parents threatened to send him back confirms that the parents were not thinking "within" but using the program as a weapon.  Does every parent get it that has gone to the seminars?  Obviously not.

[Antigen]

On 2003-12-21 10:04:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Interesting phrase, "trust the program."  Actually, I have personally never heard this, but I have heard "trust the process" in relation to the program.  

And what does that phrase mean? Many different people have said that it's the stock response to any parent who expresses concern or doubt about any aspect of the program. Tell me, why should I discount their experience in favor of yours?

He that will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not, is a slave.
--William Drummond (1585-1640)

[GregFL]

Of course you shouldn't believe every word on this board.  This is part of the point that keeps flying over your head.

This board is OPEN for opinions. If your kid in the program tries to state an opinion that is contrary to what is expected of him or to voice critisim of the program, he is in big trouble. He is forced to act, look, and behave in a way that is predetermined by a group and often contrary to his actual personality given to him by his genetics and his life experiences. This is one of
many things that makes the program cultish.


You program apologist really don't wanna hear anything but what you already believe to be true after you witness the "miracle" of your changed kid. This is why I mostly bailed from this conversation early.  


And confession? You compare program confession to catholic religious confession?  How would you like to for example, be told in church that in order to see god you must confess your innermost secrets in front of the whole church and then you admitted to a homosexual expericence. Two months later they stood you up in front of the church and called you a faggot and took turns yelling and screaming at you for two hours straight until you cried and broke, then told you your were worthless before you were lucky enough to be saved by them?

 What you people need, you adults that make excuses for the CEDU/seed model programs, is a good six months on the front row of one of these programs Then come back here and share your knowledge because as it stands, you are nothing more than a parrot, an infomercial for your *fill in the blank* program. You really are clueless to what it is like to go thru thought reform.

"NOBODY LIKED YOU ON THE STREETS. YOU ARE A BIG BABY, NOBODY WANTS YOU,NOBODY EVER LIKED YOU, FUCK, YOU COULDN"T EVEN DO IT WITH A COKE BOTTLE"

screamed at a crying 13 year old girl in front of 700 kids in group, during a come down on session in the St Pete Seed, as reported in "these are new times" 1973, and witnessed  by GregFL.

Now, I don't remember the exact words used, but you get the idea

[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-21 12:49 ]

[Antigen]

On 2003-12-21 10:15:00, Anonymous wrote:

The kid Corey that killed himself when his parents threatened to send him back confirms that the parents were not thinking "within" but using the program as a weapon.  Does every parent get it that has gone to the seminars?  Obviously not.  "

Well, from the point of view of an outside observer, WWASP seems to encourage parents to use the warranty as a weapon. That's what the "Exit Plan" is all about. And no, WWASP didn't invent that concept either. That's a standard part of the Program going back to the `70's. It ammounts to a harsh ultimatum; comply with the program or get kicked out of the family.

I got the same ultimatum when I was 18, sitting in the intake room at the LIFE program. I took option B w/ no regrets. But you should know that my mom really, really meant it! In over 20 years, she has never once called just to say hi, how are you. Never once sent a personal letter, just the obligatory holliday cards and doesn't know her grandchildren at all.

When my brother returned from military service in `71, he was given the ultimatum; sign yourself into The Seed or leave the family. He tried it for about 4 months, I think, and finally gave up, left his little brothers in the Program and joined our older sister, who was attending college in Tallahassee.

And that kid Corey is not the first, and probably won't be the last, to resort to desperate measures when faced with return to the Program.

You discard all of the claims of abuse with the relativist fallacy that all troubled teens will say anything to avoid getting help. You must know that anyone who's being tortured will also say just about anything to avoid the torture. How do you tell the difference? You don't, that's how. You simply discard out of hand any claim by anyone, no matter how credible, if it doesn't match "your experience".

Tell ya' what, friend. You sign yourself into the Talbott Center and I'll go to a parent seminar. Then we'll both have some firsthand experience to talk about. While you're there, you just keep hold onto the thought, like life itself, that this too shall pass. That's your best shot at coming out the other end somewhat sane.

Have lots of good fun! And remember! Don't complain about anything that happens to you or about anything you wittness while you're there! That would only be manipulation, right?

Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups.
--Chaz Bufe

[Anonymous]

I love Ginger and Greg!  They have the power to change hearts and minds and are doing so with wisdom, care and consideration.  These are the ingredients (with a dash of humor for good cheer) that will raise public awareness about the plight of a generation of America's youth who once called one of these coercive thought control hellholes HOME.

 :tup:

[Anonymous]

Ginger - Talbott Center?  Good one!  Guess if I had an addiction problem that might be an option, huh? I'd much rather go to a place that follows a different model, however, like http://www.lahacienda.com

Attending  a personal growth seminar or two is a completely different scenario.

Someone added a little snipet on the "lawsuit" - read the bottom of the page at http://www.wwasprebuttal.com regarding their take on this. While you're at it, read the Jeff B deposition.  Talk about a sense of humor!

I really acknowledge you Ginger and what you've accomplished despite your experience.  Any chance of you acknowledging others for what they've accomplished because of their positive experience?

[Anonymous]

Please share your feelings on this little excerpt on the above wwasp site -


"...each School and Programs have at the facility on a daily basis a number of professionals including teachers, therapist (many who are independently contracted by the parents), nurses, visiting doctors, and others who are all under a professional and legal responsibility to report any abuse. All of these professionals are trained to identify abuse or potential abuse. The many Professionals are happy to testify concerning the quality of care at each of the facilities and that there have been no need for reports of abuse made by them or others who work closely with the facilities on a daily basis."

[Antigen]

On 2003-12-21 15:14:00, Anonymous wrote:

I really acknowledge you Ginger and what you've accomplished despite your experience. Any chance of you acknowledging others for what they've accomplished because of their positive experience?

Thanks, I apreciate the compliment. But I'm not done yet. (heh) Yes, I acknowledge others' accomplishments. I can even admit that Stalin built an outstanding railway system, Hitler brought the German economy from a disaster to a success in record time, and Art Barker damned sure did get some people off drugs and had a wicked sense of humor.

But none of these things excuse or justify the harm that these people have done.

I believe these kids and parents who say that their experience with these programs has been harmful. Why should I not believe them? There are so many of them and they're not getting paid to say what they're saying. In fact, they often get punished for it in various ways, but they say it anyway. I'm glad your, what, nephew or brother? seems to be doing well. I really am. But it's not worth the involuntary sacrifices of all the others who are hurt by the experience and it really is too soon to tell for you, I think.

A lot of people take a good long time to come to terms with the fact that it's really not normal or healthy to continually have Program nightmares and other symptoms of PTSD for years. They sing the praises of the Program, they swear it saved their lives and they believe it. But they only believe it for so long as they can keep themselves from looking too closely at what has been done to them.

Don't take my word for it or mine and Greg's or mine and Gregs and the folks who keep dropping in to applaud. Just look up as many program grads as YOU can find, not just the ones WWASP tells you to talk to, and ask them yourself.

We did not inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it form our children.


http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/haida/hapindxe.html' target='_new'>Haida

[Anonymous]

On 2003-12-20 18:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ginger - I can't say why wwasp programs are in the news, nor the stories that are written on similar forums.   I only go by my own experience of those I've met in person and who nothing to gain or lose by being honest with me.  I never hear these stories first hand that I see written in the newspapers, but that's not saying they aren't actually true.  I'm not naive, but I'd prefer to go by what I do hear from those that have been there.  I've met a lot of these kids through my seminar experience with their parents.  



How do you personally sort out what you read from what is fact?



Because your program experience in STRAIGHT was bad, you may tend to believe that everything you read is true. or not.  Because my experience out of the program, with the kids I've met, the parents I've met and my own seminar experience, I tend to believe what I know. ANd I really do sort through the other stuff.  This PURE company has really tainted the waters of what is real and what is not.  It's difficult for me to believe much of what I read on this forum due to that and the constant battles going on. From what I've read, it looks like thsi company has contacted newspaper after newspaper, public officials, etc., to create a lot of what has been reported.  Knowing newspaper reporters from an experience I had in the past, I know they omit and sensationalize a bunch.  But I also know that's not all there is to it.  



I do believe you.  "

Tell you what.  Got a little test, painless and harmless, to put your money where your mouth is that your relative was not harmed by the program and was really changed by it.

Get a copy of the Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory---there's a book "Please Understand Me" that contains the test---you can get it on Amazon, probably even if it's out of print.

Have your loved one take the test twice.  Once answering the questions as he/she would have answered them before going in the program, once now.

Now, this test just gives a four letter personality profile, and to be fair and upfront I'll show you mine before you show me yours---or in this case his or hers:  I'm an INTJ.

So, have your loved one take the test, once answering for before, once answering for after, and post it.

So, can you put your money where your mouth is?

[Anonymous]

On 2003-12-19 13:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Deborah -  I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant.  It wasn't meant to be arrogant.  Written words can be filered a lot of ways.  I know it's okay to not choose seminars as a way to gain new insights.



I would like to clarify that what you experienced wasn't my take on the seminars I attended.  In each one, the seminar leader asked a lot of questions, inquirying questions without demanding that I compromise my own viewpoints.  They helped to uncover a lot of things I had never considered before.  Not once was I told to think in a certain way, or say things that I didn't really feel.  That would have defeated the whole purpose of developing a healthier relationship with myself, don't you think?  I want to respond more, but I'm watching my grandson and he's calling....til later.



"

Hello?  With an undergrad psych degree, if I could control your environment (munchies, lighting, background music) I could get you to believe a hell of a lot of things just by "asking questions" that "helped uncover things I hadn't thought about before".

Ever heard of the Socratic Method?  Socrates used it to educate, but it adapts just as easily to indoctrinating---particularly when combined with other subtle psychologically manipulative techniques and cues.

It doesn't take much to render someone *very* suggestible, especially if they're already open to it by being anxious and you seem to be selling solutions---and, in any case, you don't need a 100% conversion rate.  A few well-heeled suckers from each event is enough---and you'll get more than a few if you use all the right tricks.

[Anonymous]

On 2003-12-20 18:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Deborah wrote: "It is not always accomplish overtly. Just as my son was not told which "lie" to concoct, but he knew what they wanted to hear. When that happens day in, day out, that can/does condition one's thinking and processing."



Deborah, just for clarity sake - your son was not in a wwasp program.  Is it possible there is a difference?  What the wwasp grads have told me is that "you can't bullshit a bullshitter."  Explained to me as: if they are saying what they think you want to hear, they can see right through it.  THey might be able to fake it for the staff once in a while, but they can't fake it with their peers for very long.



Please read the link I posted in ANOTHER DEBATE thread.  I'd love to hear your take on what it says.  



"

I'm sorry, but that's a crock of shit.

With method acting, I can bullshit *anyone*.

And we have had *plenty* of ex-program-kids show up in this and other forums and relate that how they finally got through it was to "play the game"--that is, to use a version of method acting to tell the staff and other kids what they want to hear.

The key to the game with the programs, of course, is to realize you *will* be abused and genuine innocence *will* be taken as bullshit-----so you have to give them just enough of what they want to hear that they can beat on you (metaphorically in some programs, physically in others) and feel good about it, but little enough that you fit within their "Stepford Kids" mold of making "progress."

The problem is that to make the lie convincing, you have to immerse yourself in the role---and some kids get lost in the role---most of the ones who *know* that's what they're doing probably snap out of it quicker than the ones who resist the wrong way and get genuinely broken and brainwashed.

"You can't bullshit a bullshitter"?  Complete and utter crap.  Bullshitters are some of the easiest people in the world to bullshit if you know how, because their grip on reality is about appearances rather than what's really underneath.

[Anonymous]

[/quote]

Don't take my word for it or mine and Greg's or mine and Gregs and the folks who keep dropping in to applaud. Just look up as many program grads as YOU can find, not just the ones WWASP tells you to talk to, and ask them yourself.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree -- even if I am guilty of applauding Ginger, Greg and others for telling it "like it is" in ways that resonate with pundits on either side of the aisle. Sorry, I won't do it again.  :smile:

The truth is it is absolutely vital that parents do due-diligence when considering private placement which includes, but is not limited to, locating and interviewing as many program grads as one can find.  When speaking with parents or grads who present themselves as "success stories" be aware that anecdotal evidence is more often than not, what you are going to see and hear.

[Antigen]

On 2003-12-21 15:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Please share your feelings on this little excerpt on the above wwasp site -





"...each School and Programs have at the facility on a daily basis a number of professionals including teachers, therapist (many who are independently contracted by the parents), nurses, visiting doctors, and others who are all under a professional and legal responsibility to report any abuse. All of these professionals are trained to identify abuse or potential abuse. The many Professionals are happy to testify concerning the quality of care at each of the facilities and that there have been no need for reports of abuse made by them or others who work closely with the facilities on a daily basis."



 



"

I feel a deep sense of trepidation connected to an image of that old blow-hard, Dr. Hugh Burns.  He had been the executive staff most likely to actually lead a rap and know something, true or not, about each kid. But it turned out either he didn't know much or he's a damned liar.

I talked to him on the phone a couple of years ago, twice. The first time, I asked him if he knew what ever happened to a particular kid I'd been worried about for all these years. Here's my recollection of what happened to that kid http://fornits.com/anonanon/sidetalk/messages/22.htm

Well Doc said he didn't even remember this kid and that whatever happened to him must have happened after he'd left his job at Straight. Not long after that conversation, I came accross some old newspaper articles, naming good ol'e Doc as a Straight staff member up until at least December of 1982. I'd left the program for the last time in Oct of `82. So there was no way that what he'd told me could have been true and, unless he took 3 days off in a row, there is no possible way that he could have not heard what we were doing to this kid. In short, the son of a bitch lied to me.

So I called up Doc again, only to find the number disconnected. No problem, I had found two numbers for him when I initially looked him up, so I called the other number. Doc was not happy to hear from me. Wouldn't even stay on the phone long enough for me to ask him about this discrepancy. A week later, that second number had been changed as well.

Then comes to mind the physician who examined me in the little medical room in the corner of the big group room. See, I'd been held in a 5 point for around two hours for refusing to apologize to Group for having run away. I didn't want to fight and get beat down, so I just complied. But after two hours, my whole body was numb to the point of intense pain and I started to worry about permanent damage. So I yelled out, twice, "If I miscarry, I'll kill somebody."

Next day, a real live medical doctor (or so I would assume, cause that's what they said he was) came to the building to administer a pregnancy test. I told him, point blank, that I knew I couldn't be pregnant and that I'd only said it to make them stop hurting me. Never heard another word about it.

Anon, this is par for the course. Over and over again, kids who have been in WWASP programs report never having seen a medical doctor, psychiatrist or other professinal for the duration of their stay. Parents and kids rebort huge discrepancies between the sales brochures and the realities of Program life. So we have this small group of people who, whether motivated more by money or by religious zealotry, consistently claim that these other hundreds of people who tell the same stories about them are all liars. They make themselves out to be nobel martyrs, just like Betty Sembler does to this day.

But their story just doesn't wash. They seem to be saying here that the places are just crawling with presumably objective and detached professional people from the outside. But no kid who attends these programs, even those who swear by it, will stand by that claim. No one, including the parents, is allowed access to the clients unless they're convinced that any report of abuse is manipulation.

The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.


--H.L. Mencken

[spots]

"...each School and Programs have at the facility on a daily basis a number of professionals including teachers, therapist (many who are independently contracted by the parents), nurses, visiting doctors, and others who are all under a professional and legal responsibility to report any abuse.

[don't these people ever proof-read their stuff, or at least have a high school senior look it over for grammatical or spelling errors before it becomes "official?"

My understanding is that the **only** psychiatric professional allowed onto the Casa by the Sea campus is Dr. Marc Chappius (referred to in one news article by the Utah State department for licensing as "...the bottom of the barrel, not the brightest star in the Utah psychological community."  Dr. Chappius charges up to $300 an hour for medical assistance at the school, and a "pre-entrance psych exam" will run the parent about $900 more than the nearly-$4000 admissions package (see contract for Casa by the Sea for exact wording).  Dr. Chappius (according to The Guardian/UK article statement by Jay Kay) spends 2 weeks a month in Tranquility Bay, and spreads his time during the rest of the month over the remaining WWASPS facilities (thinly, one would presume).

During my child's sentence in Casa, she knows several other teens whose parents paid for medical visits (apparently told through letters from home), but were never visited by any medical professional.  One girl's mother was said to have paid $1000, with no medical visit forthcoming.  If one were "lucky" enough to see the Mexican medical doctor visiting, his advice was across-the-board, "Drink more water", regardless of the ailment.  BTW, drinking water other than that available from the kiosk in the courtyard of filtered water to fill your plastic water bottle was a Category 5 violation, Self-Mutilation.

My kid went in with braces, and even though I asked about their maintenance during every single letter I wrote her, it wasn't until Month 8 that she was allowed a dental visit.  She was taken by a "mama" she did not know into a car (a real adventure, after all that time in confinement), and silently driven into Ensenada.  There, the "adventure" ended with her once-over-lightly by a Mexican dentist [not an orthodontist], with new bands (R-W-B, much to the mama's chagrin) and an adjustment.  This visit was repeated, but upon returning home after 10 months, the local California orthodonist declared the entire program set back and basically needing to start from where they left off.  During this entire period, my kid was only a Level II (not entitiled to talk to peers, phone home, nor *visit offsite*).  I have no idea what precipitated the eventual dental care visit, except that maybe they thought they'd better do something, because it didn't look like she was going to cave and go to a higher level soon.

As to the following:      

{quote}
All of these professionals are trained to identify abuse or potential abuse. The many Professionals are happy to testify concerning the quality of care at each of the facilities and that there have been no need for reports of abuse made by them or others who work closely with the facilities on a daily basis."
{quote}



...my conversation with Al Anzaldua, embassy officer in Tijuana responsible for "protecting" the rights of US national minor children in his northern Mexico territory, was as follows:

"...I worked a long time with abused children in New Mexico and I can tell you that I recognize abused kids and these kids were not abused."  

Mr. Alzaldua related how he walked around the campus with Dace Goulding on his "unannounced" visits [after he and Dace had lunch, about every 3rd Wednesday], and a boy came up to them and said "You owe me a game, Dace" [the boy had a basketball], and Goulding replied, "Not right now".  Mr. Anzaldua took this incident to represent the warm fatherly love Mr. Goulding's charges had for him.  I would refer to the CIA memorandum from Allen Dulles, first CIA Director to J. Edgar Hoover in 1955, outlining the new phenomenon or brainwashing by the Koreans on our soldiers, and how taking away all hope - and replacing it with the ultimate authority figure - can engender such "misplaced love".  

Mr. Anzaldua also related how he had heard much from parents about abuse, and "snuck away to peek around a corner" to see if he could find abuse [kids hanging from irons on the south wall?].  What he found was a small group of kids sunning themselves in beach chairs, overlooking the cliff that fronts the sea at Casa.  Anecdotally, one can presume Mr. Anzaldua was carefully guided to see only upper levels, and his "proof" of non-abuse [kick-back tanners] was atypical to say the least.

The only sort of abuse that the US Department of State seems to be able to identify is outright flogging..."Show me the bruises and I'll testify to abuse."  Even extended solitary confinement (my kid spent pretty much her entire first 2 months in Worksheets, alone and without physical exercise, school, or decent food..a period encompassing Thanksgiving and Christmas).  During this extended "introductory" period, her mother had every-Tuesday phone calls from the staffer in charge, and was told that "She is doing fine...having some problem with the rules, but doing fine".  

I somehow suspect a kid can eventually weather getting smacked upside the head as "abuse" better than the grinding, pervasive, helpless knowledge that you are under indefinite sentence for who-knows-what, and that you parent doesn't give a damn.  Never trust an authority figure to determine what is and is not abuse of your own child.

[Anonymous]

Never trust an authority figure to determine if your kid is being abused, Spots?  Aren't you the one that is attempting to enlist authority figures to do this in Montana?  You discount what parents know, but you are saying here the parents are the only ones to know for sure?

Seems that the parents AND the authority figures say there's no abuse, but you can't accept that.  

Your contact with the representative in California, so far, has gone no where. Your contact with the Mexican Government didn't say what you wanted to hear, either.  IS that the reason you are now saying that the authority figures won't determine abuse is going on or not?