On 2003-12-10 14:31:00, coz wrote:
"I realize that the girl was the drunk driver. If that's the case, then you are equating the drunk driver with the Elan resident. The one who turns tragedy into success. Thus, the adverse situation is getting into the drunk driving accident, involving the middle man.
Well, yes, those who turn a bad situation into something good and also those who don't. There are both kinds.
In the case of the Elan resident, it's going to Elan. Thus, the other driver equals Elan. That is why you are basically blaming the man for being on the road.
No, I'm not blaming anyone for either the car wreck or landing up in Elan or some other Synanon based program. That's not at issue, or at least that's not what I'm talking about. Regardless of how someone comes to be either in a car wreck or placed in a confrontational TC, we know that both are often harmful experiences. And we know that sometimes people turn harmful experiences like like these around.
That's all. That's the full scope of my question. And I'm responding directly to your point.
My point is that I think we can't comparmentalize something like Elan. Many people benefit and many people don't. Life is not a zero-sum proposition. So fighting over differences of opinion becomes pointless. But, examinging differences of opinion can help us come to many important realization about life and solution to complex and elusive problems. As far as Elan goes, what about those who benefit from it? -Coz
(And, btw, I don't think your first post was muddled at all.)
I'm right with you on examining differences of opinion. I've learned a lot in the past couple of years from listening to other people's experiences and opinions.
But you ask a direct question and I'm trying to further explore that. You ask "What about those people who benefit from Elan?" And I ask, well what's the difference between making that argument in favor of Elan and making the same argument in favor of car wrecks.
My point is not that many things about Elan are horrible and wrong. Or even that it doesn't need to be shut down. I just claim not to have the answers.
I'm actually right with you on that point too, Coz. These programs wouldn't exist, far less be so lucrative a growth industry, if there were not a demand for them in our society. Ya'll are fond of pointing out that everyone's experience is different. But you say it in context asif that means we can't possibly understand eachother, asif we're each all alone in the world. That's simply not so.
No, I wasn't ever in Elan. I was in another program very like Elan in many ways and based on the same Synanon heritage. On the rare occasion when Elanians are just plain talking about their experience instead of trying to destroy eachother and any hapless bystanders unlucky enough to stumble onto the scene, I've found that the basic tenets of the program are the same, right down the line.
That's the big problem. And it parallels other very disturbing trends in our society. Some of the few growth industries in this country right now are prison industries (which are incorporating Synanon methods more and more), the Teen Help industry and military contracts.
I don't think we're going to solve this by forcing one after another of these little cultish organizations out of business (or, more commonly, to change their names). I think we have to go a lot further.
Thus, I am in the middle in that sense. The point I was trying to make is that most kids that end up in Elan, did something to get themselvers put there, to varying degrees and yet most won't take any responsibility for the part in it. No one was just an all around good person who got along with everyone and all of sudden just one day got picked up and sent there. I'm also not saying it was right that they were sent there.
What about the kids who landed there because CPS in their state thought they were getting a good deal on housing, food and education for some of their charges.
I get your point, though. You go around being a smart ass and, sooner or later, you'll piss off the wrong guy and he'll slug you. Doesn't mean it's right for the guy to go around slugging people just for having a smart mouth. Never the less, it's going to happen.
When I was younger, I though in terms of personal survival. Like I said before, when I was in, I did just what you did. I never complained or asked for favors. I just went along and, usually, avoided trouble till I could hit the door. I never had been a drug addict to begin with and all I wanted was to get on with my life, which I did, posthaste, and have few personal regrets.
But I'm older now. I have kids old enough to be parents. And, the way things are going these days, my grandkids could very well land up in "treatment" similar to what I endured, but coerced by government, not their parents. I recognize my responsibility to do something about it. And this is my offering. Simple as it is, I just provid a forum where people can explain what the hell the Program is all about and, maybe, find common ground with others.
Psychedelics often produce psychotic and even violent behavior in those who have never used them.
--Timothy Leary
