Author Topic: Walter Freeman, biological basis of thought reform  (Read 893 times)

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dragonfly

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Walter Freeman, biological basis of thought reform
« on: August 19, 2011, 08:49:02 AM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

dragonfly

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Re: Walter Freeman, biological basis of thought reform
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2011, 08:54:43 AM »
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Offline Froderik

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The Third Mindfulness Training: Freedom of Thought
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2011, 10:26:06 AM »
"Aware of the suffering brought about when we impose our views on others, we are committed not to force others, even our children, by any means whatsoever--such as authority, threat, money, propaganda or indoctrination--to adopt our views. We will respect the right of others to be different and to choose what to believe and how to decide. We will, however, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness through compassionate dialogue."

http://eastsidesangha.com/id7.html
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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: Walter Freeman, biological basis of thought reform
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2011, 12:36:57 PM »
Quote
In a basic sense, this process is the ultimate source of meaning in human
life.


I cannot agree with this statement.  If you were to look at society today- Yes, you would find that most people do, in fact derive their meaning in life this way.. I am a republican.. I am a democrat.. I am cowboy.. I am a city boy.. I am a man.. I am tough man.. I am a woman... I am a cultured woman... I am wealthy and have the ways of wealth about me.. I am wealthy but independent... I am poor.  I am a proud poor person.. I am a christian.. I am a muslim.. I am an atheist..

However, I do not agree that it IS the ultimate meaning in human life, but rather a default.  Without doubt, there are certain people who fare better in programs then others.  Some are more independently minded, trusting in their own minds, and willing to fight for them. Are these people's lives, we are to assume, lacking in meaning, then those who either cave more easily, or even those who pretty much throw the collar around their own necks, and are happy to have them.

Look.. when we are young we are pressured to take on many attitudes and ideas.. so we do... also, some attitudes and ideas are all that we are exposed to at all, and so they are as real to us, as the ground that is always beneath our feet.. also, being dependent upon our family's, we take on many attitudes and ideas for our survival, and also desiring love, and also, knowing that any adult in the world, if they wanted to could physically hurt us, or even kill us, at any time, might also shape how we mold ourselves going into the world.... As we come into adulthood, however, I think that deriving meaning from tribe-like mentality, though, we pretty much all do it to some extent, is by default, and is the lesser part of ourselves.. NOT the ULTIMATE.. It stems from our insecurity, and our past patterning...

This is why I never agreed with the concept of positive peer pressure.. If I can use positive peer pressure to make you clean.. I can used so called negative peer pressure to get you right back on drugs again.  The handle by which you can be controlled is not only still there, but has been strengthened, and as well, reaffirmed, and glorified.  Peer pressure is indiscriminate.  Caving to the will of the majority, when you do not think it is what you should do is negative. There is no negative and positive.  That is like say that if I drive off a cliff, I have a bad car, but if I drive to the store, I have a good car.  A car is a car, and that's it.  You judge the car, by the car, not by what a person, uses it to do.

Anyway, I am not looking to argue, or nitpick, but I, personally, think that this is a very important identification.. You have to be very careful, in my opinion, reading the works of all these intellectuals.  They are often right on a lot of points, but miss, at the same time, some of the other most important points.. And of course, I could also be wrong, but this is my opinion.  

Paul St. john
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Froderik

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The Second Mindfulness Training: Nonattachment from Views
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2011, 01:09:55 PM »
Quote from: "Paul St. John"
Quote
In a basic sense, this process is the ultimate source of meaning in human life.

I cannot agree with this statement.  If you were to look at society today- Yes, you would find that most people do, in fact derive their meaning in life this way.. I am a republican.. I am a democrat.. I am cowboy.. I am a city boy.. I am a man.. I am tough man.. I am a woman... I am a cultured woman... I am wealthy and have the ways of wealth about me.. I am wealthy but independent... I am poor.  I am a proud poor person.. I am a christian.. I am a muslim.. I am an atheist..

However, I do not agree that it IS the ultimate meaning in human life, but rather a default.  Without doubt, there are certain people who fare better in programs then others.  Some are more independently minded, trusting in their own minds, and willing to fight for them. Are these people's lives, we are to assume, lacking in meaning, then those who either cave more easily, or even those who pretty much throw the collar around their own necks, and are happy to have them.

Look.. when we are young we are pressured to take on many attitudes and ideas.. so we do... also, some attitudes and ideas are all that we are exposed to at all, and so they are as real to us, as the ground that is always beneath our feet.. also, being dependent upon our family's, we take on many attitudes and ideas for our survival, and also desiring love, and also, knowing that any adult in the world, if they wanted to could physically hurt us, or even kill us, at any time, might also shape how we mold ourselves going into the world.... As we come into adulthood, however, I think that deriving meaning from tribe-like mentality, though, we pretty much all do it to some extent, is by default, and is the lesser part of ourselves.. NOT the ULTIMATE.. It stems from our insecurity, and our past patterning...

This is why I never agreed with the concept of positive peer pressure.. If I can use positive peer pressure to make you clean.. I can used so called negative peer pressure to get you right back on drugs again.  The handle by which you can be controlled is not only still there, but has been strengthened, and as well, reaffirmed, and glorified.  Peer pressure is indiscriminate.  Caving to the will of the majority, when you do not think it is what you should do is negative. There is no negative and positive.  That is like say that if I drive off a cliff, I have a bad car, but if I drive to the store, I have a good car.  A car is a car, and that's it.  You judge the car, by the car, not by what a person, uses it to do.

Anyway, I am not looking to argue, or nitpick, but I, personally, think that this is a very important identification.. You have to be very careful, in my opinion, reading the works of all these intellectuals.  They are often right on a lot of points, but miss, at the same time, some of the other most important points.. And of course, I could also be wrong, but this is my opinion.  

Paul St. john

I thought this (another one) was relevant enough to post, to further what you're saying, Paul:

"Aware of the suffering created by attachment to views and wrong perceptions, we are determined to avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. We shall learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to others' insights and experiences. We are aware that the knowledge we presently possess is not changeless, absolute truth. Truth is found in life, and we will observe life within and around us in every moment, ready to learn throughout our lives."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

dragonfly

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Re: Walter Freeman, biological basis of thought reform
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2011, 03:40:25 PM »
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dragonfly

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Re: Walter Freeman, biological basis of thought reform
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2011, 04:26:36 PM »
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dragonfly

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Re: Walter Freeman, biological basis of thought reform
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2011, 04:37:42 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

dragonfly

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Re: Walter Freeman, biological basis of thought reform
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2011, 10:35:10 AM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »